Questioned by hotel security

[+ José Soplanucas]

But not all LGBT people are invisible. There's also discrimination based on presumption and personal self-presentation.

Yes

[LivingnLA]

I can only speak for myself, but for me there's a big difference between not being able to feel

what it's like to be non-white in this country and a continued active denial that discrimination exists in non-whites daily lives. The former is certainly true if you're white, but the latter could be construed as offensive and a generalization of whites in general, which I personally reject.

 

Fair enough, but I didn't say all white people actively deny the existence of discrimination. I said many do though, because polls show rather large numbers of white people don't think racial discrimination is real in America even though many examples exist of racial discrimination across the country.

 

This is a difficult topic and I do not mean to offend anyone, but until we address White Privilege in all its beneficial forms for white people and all the negative forms for non-whites, our society will not change.

[+ saminseattle]

I raised the issue of interactions with hotel staff in one of my first threads on this forum. https://www.companyofmen.org/threads/hotel-staff-questions.111100/ At that time, there were no negative experiences like yours reported (although @nycman had some pretty entertaining stories from European hotels, including one involving the Prime Minister of Pakistan!). But just because it has rarely been a problem in the past doesn’t mean it can’t happen or that it might not be a more common problem in the future. Apparently, the Department of Homeland Security has trained hotel workers to be on the lookout for “suspicious behavior,” (including frequent use of “do not disturb” signs), and it encourages a “see something, say something” approach, just as at airports. https://www.companyofmen.org/threads/homeland-security-out-of-control-again.111082/ Of course, these efforts are theoretically intended to identify sex traffickers and terrorists, but many people find all kinds of behavior to be suspicious. Regardless of laws against racial/ethnic/religious discrimination, that appears to have played a role in at least some cases. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2016/05/07/ivy-league-economist-interrogated-for-doing-math-on-american-airlines-flight/?utm_term=.b998b8a31936

 

In my city, the voters recently approved an initiative that requires hotels to keep lists of guests who are accused of sexual misconduct by hotel staff, share that list with the city, and deny lodging to those guests. http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/hotel-trade-groups-sue-over-seattle-initiative-that-gives-new-rights-to-workers/ Again, while this provision is obviously intended to address the problem of guests sexually harassing hotel maids, I think there is a risk it could be applied in other situations, and there is apparently no provision for challenging the accuracy of the hotel worker’s accusations.

 

In any event, I think the best thing to do if you are visiting a hotel guest and a security guard confronts you there, is to leave the premises immediately. I would not give them any ID or other information. I doubt they would attempt to physically detain you once you make it clear you have other places you need to be.

[LivingnLA]

In any event, I think the best thing to do if you are visiting a hotel guest and a security guard confronts you there, is to leave the premises immediately. I would not give them any ID or other information. I doubt they would attempt to physically detain you once you make it clear you have other places you need to be.

 

I agree with everything @saminseattle said except the part about "doubt[ing] they would attempt to physically detain you" because plenty of Americans have seen way too many Hollywood movies and TV shows where the lone citizen vigilante saves the day. If you're a nonwhite person who just attempts to leave, don't be surprised if the hotel staff suddenly gets very physical.

[AdamSmith]

If you're a nonwhite person who just attempts to leave, don't be surprised if the hotel staff suddenly gets very physical.

Anybody that happened to would win a federal Title II damage award from that hotel in seven figures.

 

See the text of Title II that I posted above in this thread.

[+ Keith30309]

I agree with everything @saminseattle said except the part about "doubt[ing] they would attempt to physically detain you" because plenty of Americans have seen way too many Hollywood movies and TV shows where the lone citizen vigilante saves the day. If you're a nonwhite person who just attempts to leave, don't be surprised if the hotel staff suddenly gets very physical.

This surprises me a little.

In this circumstance I am not suspect of having committed or even attempting to commit a crime against a person or property. Someone might assert that I was planning to do so but that's tenuous at best.

 

I would have thought that corporate employees and private security personnel would be trained to only resort to physical force in order to prevent an imminent threat from occurring. Otherwise they should get all the info they can, like security camera recordings, license numbers, etc, and wait for the sworn offficers to arrive.

 

If I had a legitimate reason for being on the private property and, having committed no crime, was physically detained then I would think I would have a good cause for legal action.

[LivingnLA]

Anybody that happened to would win a federal Title II damage award from that hotel in seven figures.

 

See the text of Title II that I posted above in this thread.

 

I would sure hope so!

[LivingnLA]

This surprises me a little.

In this circumstance I am not suspect of having committed or even attempting to commit a crime against a person or property. Someone might assert that I was planning to do so but that's tenuous at best.

 

I would have thought that corporate employees and private security personnel would be trained to only resort to physical force in order to prevent an imminent threat from occurring. Otherwise they should get all the info they can, like security camera recordings, license numbers, etc, and wait for the sworn offficers to arrive.

 

If I had a legitimate reason for being on the private property and, having committed no crime, was physically detained then I would think I would have a good cause for legal action.

 

I completely agree, but that assumes you have the financial and legal know-how and capability to pursue legal action. Further, look at the stats. Many unarmed people of color have been killed or assaulted by cops or citizens in America for centuries. Yes, poor white people get roughed up too sometimes, but the data shows a significantly disproportionate number of victims are people of color. It's depressingly easy to find examples and studies on the web.

 

Again, I am making assumptions, but generally speaking, most white people have no idea what it's like for people of color in many parts of this country. All eyes tend to follow people of color just looking for something suspicious or "one wrong move."

[AdamSmith]

I completely agree, but that assumes you have the financial and legal know-how and capability to pursue legal action. Further, look at the stats. Many unarmed people of color have been killed or assaulted by cops or citizens in America for centuries. Yes, poor white people get roughed up too sometimes, but the data shows a significantly disproportionate number of victims are people of color. It's depressingly easy to find examples and studies on the web.

 

Again, I am making assumptions, but generally speaking, most white people have no idea what it's like for people of color in many parts of this country. All eyes tend to follow people of color just looking for something suspicious or "one wrong move."

You don't use or need your own legal resources or know-how. The Justice Department investigates and prosecutes civil rights cases on the citizen's behalf, for exactly the reasons you say.

[+ WilliamM]

Fair enough, but I didn't say all white people actively deny the existence of discrimination. I said many do though, because polls show rather large numbers of white people don't think racial discrimination is real in America even though many examples exist of racial discrimination across the country.

 

I would like to understand how the questions were worded and some of the actual responses.

 

Some people still supported the war in Vietnam until the very end, but the reason was usually once the U.S. became involved it should have used full military power without concern for China.

[LivingnLA]

You don't use or need your own legal resources or know-how. The Justice Department investigates and prosecutes civil rights cases on the citizen's behalf, for exactly the reasons you say.

 

That's true, but only if they're aware of the issue, which requires someone telling them about it. Many people of color who are harassed have no knowledge of this government responsibility plus, they frequently don't trust the government. Just look at the drop in crimes like rape being reported by Hispanics to see how many people don't trust the government. ICE even shot an innocent American recently when they raided the wrong house. LAPD said rape reports are down 25% so far. The crimes are still happening but Hispanic victims aren't reporting them because they don't trust the government not to harass them.

[LivingnLA]

I would like to understand how the questions were worded and some of the actual responses.

 

Some people still supported the war in Vietnam until the very end, but the reason was usually once the U.S. became involved it should have used full military power without concern for China.

 

True, polls are only as useful as the quality of their questions. Personally, I always wonder why so many dismiss or ignore other people's reported suffering, pain, or struggle just because they haven't experienced it themselves. Yes, there are people who lie to get attention or whatever, but the number of fakes tends to be quite small.

 

Thanks y'all for discussing this topic. It's led me to some interesting reads online.

 

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-some-white-people-think-racism-is-only-a-Black-issue

http://www.bet.com/news/national/2013/07/24/commentary-why-white-people-don-t-see-racism.html

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/why-white-people-struggle-with-racism/

http://stateofopportunity.michiganradio.org/post/why-all-white-people-are-racist-cant-handle-being-called-racist-theory-white-fragility

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/11/black-people-should-stop-caring-what-white-people-think.html

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2014/05/millennials_racism_and_mtv_poll_young_people_are_confused_about_bias_prejudice.html

http://www.salon.com/2015/01/16/white_people_are_more_racist_than_they_realize_partner/

https://www.thenation.com/article/white-people-have-give-racism/

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/05/racist-racism-racially-white-ethnic-minorities

https://www.quora.com/As-a-white-person-do-you-think-racism-still-exists-in-the-USA-If-so-in-what-way

http://www.tolerance.org/article/racism-and-white-privilege

[AdamSmith]

Many people of color who are harassed have no knowledge of this government responsibility plus, they frequently don't trust the government.

The most condescending superior ignorant thing I have ever heard in my life. When I lived in Manhattan and woke up every morning in a strange bed farther and farther north of 125th Street, the communities of color that welcomed and took me in and protected me had immense knowledge, and also immense community centers of proactive knowledge dissemination, about the civil rights remedies available through the very strong and proactive federal forces set up to provide such, through 1964 Act enforcement.

 

Your comment here is most astoundingly condescending, ignorant, and racist.

 

I'm truly shocked.

[Larstrup]

I would like to understand how the questions were worded and some of the actual responses.

 

Some people still supported the war in Vietnam until the very end, but the reason was usually once the U.S. became involved it should have used full military power without concern for China.

 

What?

[Larstrup]

The most condescending superior ignorant thing I have ever heard in my life. When I lived in Manhattan and woke up every morning in a strange bed farther and farther north of 125th Street, the communities of color that welcomed and took me in and protected me had immense knowledge, and also immense community centers of proactive knowledge dissemination, about the civil rights remedies available through the very strong and proactive federal forces set up to provide such, through 1964 Act enforcement.

 

Your comment here is most astoundingly condescending, ignorant, and racist.

 

I'm truly shocked.

 

This plus infinity! This is profoundly shocking that anyone could be so centered in so much hate and ignornace.

[Larstrup]

** hyperventilating** nothing to see here.

[Strafe13]

You don't use or need your own legal resources or know-how. The Justice Department investigates and prosecutes civil rights cases on the citizen's behalf, for exactly the reasons you say.

 

Have you seen who the Attorney General in charge of the Department of Justice is today, under the Trump Administration? AG Jeff Sessions has spoken out against the very idea of consent decrees entered into by his predecessors with cities and localities whose law enforcement agencies had been found to have routinely violated the rights of people of color. He has had the DOJ reverse course on voting rights cases. His policies very brazenly belie the optimistic conclusions you have repeatedly asserted in this thread.

 

In any event, it seemed to me that the poster who suggested that walking confidently in hotel spaces may not be enough to prevent persons of color from being singled out by hotel security was invoking a general experience often complained of, rather than saying that such profiling was specific or limited to the hospitality industry. That being said, the threat of litigation is not always such a buffer against objectionable conduct. Here in New York City, for example, the government has settled so many civil rights cases stemming from alleged police brutality and other civil rights abuses that it pays out tens of millions of dollars every year. Sadly, that hasn't stopped the cops from doing what they want to do.

[Larstrup]

Here in New York City, for example, the government has settled so many civil rights cases stemming from alleged police brutality and other civil rights abuses that it pays out tens of millions of dollars every year. Sadly, that hasn't stopped the cops from doing what they want to do.

 

Strafe13, 19 minutes agoReport

#117Like+ QuoteReply

 

This should at minimum, at least suggest that people of color in NYC who are unacceptably and illegally harassed are not as ignorant and misinformed in their knowledge about government responsibility in these matter as @LivingnLA suggested. I suspect they are not alone.

[Strafe13]

The most condescending superior ignorant thing I have ever heard in my life. When I lived in Manhattan and woke up every morning in a strange bed farther and farther north of 125th Street, the communities of color that welcomed and took me in and protected me had immense knowledge, and also immense community centers of proactive knowledge dissemination, about the civil rights remedies available through the very strong and proactive federal forces set up to provide such, through 1964 Act enforcement.

 

Your comment here is most astoundingly condescending, ignorant, and racist.

 

I'm truly shocked.

 

B.S. There was nothing racist or insulting in LivingnLA's comment. First, it's particularly disingenuous of you to quote that one sentence outside of the rich context in which it was presented. Second, many people have no idea about the various governmental resources available for all manner of problems. There's nothing racist about stating such an obvious general fact. Third, the DOJ is a prosecutorial body, not a non-profit community organization. So, even if an aggrieved victim of discrimination reported an incident to the office of his/her local U.S. Attorney, there's a decent chance that it won't result in a prosecution or even a serious investigation, due to a whole number of reasons.

 

I find it surprising that you seem to be bending over so much to deny the reality that, generally speaking, people of color have vastly different life experiences than whites in this country, and profiling is part of that. I've read through this entire thread, and I chuckled as I saw so many people discussing the issue of just hanging around hotels, or even riding elevators and roaming hallways, with nary a mention of being stopped for security, save for the guy who knocked on the wrong door. The entire time I was reading, I was thinking, this reads like a bunch of mostly older white guys who sound like they've never considered being racially or ethnically profiled. Of course, the instant one poster points out that people of color or other minorities might experience the hotel issue differently, the pushback was swift and fierce. So sadly predictable.

 

I've met with a well known and extremely well reviewed white escort many times when he visits NYC, and always at his hotel. I typically always head right on up to his room, but one time, when visiting a new hotel, I couldn't see the elevator bank because it was around a corner. As I gathered my bearings, the front desk person asked if I needed help. I just asked him to point out the elevators, but once he did, he wouldn't let me pass even though I obviously knew which room I was going to. They insisted that I give them the name of the guest I was there to see, even though I no longer needed their help to get to his room. I had to text the escort, who kindly provided me with his real name, and after they called the room and announced my presence, I was let up. When I met with Mr. Wonderful, we both agreed that if I knew exactly where I was going and had just proceeded along, I likely wouldn't have been stopped. But he also explained that although this rarely happens to his clients, when it does, it's almost always his clients of color. I find it hard to believe that clients of color have more difficulty finding elevator banks, or knowing where they're going than white clients, yet they seem to be stopped more often. Hmm? Funny how the Civil Rights Act of 1964 didn't seem to deter all of those incidents.

[Strafe13]

Here in New York City, for example, the government has settled so many civil rights cases stemming from alleged police brutality and other civil rights abuses that it pays out tens of millions of dollars every year. Sadly, that hasn't stopped the cops from doing what they want to do.

 

Strafe13, 19 minutes agoReport

#117Like+ QuoteReply

 

This should at minimum, at least suggest that people of color in NYC who are unacceptably and illegally harassed are not as ignorant and misinformed in their knowledge about government responsibility in these matter as @LivingnLA suggested. I suspect they are not alone.

 

They are the exception. Most people who have been disrespected, roughed up, or even brutalized by the police do not seek legal representation for the purpose of filing a civil suit for monetary compensation. They just want to be left alone. And it's telling that at the local level at least, there isn't a government entity that folks go to, as AdamSmith alluded to at the federal level. The point is twofold: 1) the general statement that most people don't know their full options to seek legal redress for civil rights violations, nor do they have the resources to pursue them, is generally true, irrespective of the race or ethnicity of the victims; and 2) civil rights lawsuits don't seem to be a very effective deterrent, at least as it pertains to violations committed by law enforcement agents and agencies.

 

That's not to say that private entities don't likely have more impetus to train their agents to avoid engaging in incidents that could expose the company to liability under the civil rights laws, as AdamSmith reasoned. But we have laws prohibiting private discrimination in employment, for example, and that doesn't stop employers from finding themselves in trouble for sex, race, and religious employment discrimination on a regular basis. Racial discrimination happens all the time, in all settings. It's why the civil rights laws exist; the laws' presence doesn't mean that the evil they were meant to combat doesn't exist.

[Larstrup]

I have personally shared my outrage here over Trump wanting to eliminate funding for the Legal Services Corporation. LSC provides grants to nonprofits nationwide that in turn provide civil legal aid to those who otherwise can't afford it. The beneficiaries of LSC funding include homeless veterans, low-income workers and victims of domestic abuse. The outreach is quite extensive in many areas.

 

"Your general statement that most people don't know their full options to seek legal redress for civil rights violations, nor do they have the resources to pursue them, is generally true, irrespective of the race or ethnicity of the victims"

 

When I look around my community and those others which I spend considerable time in, I see these individuals vastly more aware than not that these services not only exist but rely upon them in a manner which is a lifeblood to their voice being heard and adejuactaed by the laws which we all are governed under. Of course these services are now under seize by the administration but to suggest most are unaware of them is something which I don't see, at least in the communities I assist in. That's not to say some don't but when you audit the services provided by population, it suggests otherwise

[+ sniper]

The most condescending superior ignorant thing I have ever heard in my life. When I lived in Manhattan and woke up every morning in a strange bed farther and farther north of 125th Street, the communities of color that welcomed and took me in and protected me had immense knowledge, and also immense community centers of proactive knowledge dissemination, about the civil rights remedies available through the very strong and proactive federal forces set up to provide such, through 1964 Act enforcement.

 

Your comment here is most astoundingly condescending, ignorant, and racist.

 

I'm truly shocked.

 

I'm sorry, is this a satire account? I don't follow the political forum.

 

Well I guess the election has proven that "I'm rubber, you're glue" is still an effective debate strategy.

There's been a great deal of condescension in this thread, all of it from you. You've been incredibly rude and dismissive of everyone here.

You've sneered at everything anyone even slightly disagreeing with you has said.

The idea that white people are all cowering in fear of being sued for racism is laughable given we live in a country where a black professional tennis player gets thrown to the sidewalk from behind without warning for happening to be in the vicinity of a store where a black person may have taken something. Yes, a handful of people win the lottery when either what happens to them has airtight documentation, or they happen to get picked up on social media - but part of the reason they get picked up on social media in the first place is that resonates with a hell of a lot of people who have had experiences along those lines.

It's not "racist" to make the observation that different people may have different experiences and perspectives.

[LivingnLA]

The most condescending superior ignorant thing I have ever heard in my life. When I lived in Manhattan and woke up every morning in a strange bed farther and farther north of 125th Street, the communities of color that welcomed and took me in and protected me had immense knowledge, and also immense community centers of proactive knowledge dissemination, about the civil rights remedies available through the very strong and proactive federal forces set up to provide such, through 1964 Act enforcement.

 

Your comment here is most astoundingly condescending, ignorant, and racist.

 

I'm truly shocked.

 

Wow. I know I have my own racial biases, we all do, but to be the "most" is quite something. I'm glad you had such positive experiences in NYC, sadly the rest of the country is nothing like NYC.

[LivingnLA]

I have personally shared my outrage here over Trump wanting to eliminate funding for the Legal Services Corporation. LSC provides grants to nonprofits nationwide that in turn provide civil legal aid to those who otherwise can't afford it. The beneficiaries of LSC funding include homeless veterans, low-income workers and victims of domestic abuse. The outreach is quite extensive in many areas.

 

"Your general statement that most people don't know their full options to seek legal redress for civil rights violations, nor do they have the resources to pursue them, is generally true, irrespective of the race or ethnicity of the victims"

 

When I look around my community and those others which I spend considerable time in, I see these individuals vastly more aware than not that these services not only exist but rely upon them in a manner which is a lifeblood to their voice being heard and adejuactaed by the laws which we all are governed under. Of course these services are now under seize by the administration but to suggest most are unaware of them is something which I don't see, at least in the communities I assist in. That's not to say some don't but when you audit the services provided by population, it suggests otherwise

 

And may I ask which community you live in and spend considerable time in? Is it NYC? Forgive me, but the more progressive metro areas of America are not the rest of the country. Hell, plenty of racism happens every single day in NYC and LA despite all of their progressive efforts. Yes, people are more aware than ever, but that only highlights how badly and intentionally unaware we as a society have been for decades. Police have been harassing and killing innocent people of color for centuries. We're only just now beginning to acknowledge this systemic racism and look how many resist or ignore this reality?

[corymonroe]

This thread sure has taken its share of turns.

 

I photograph hotel interiors. I sneak into hotels most of the time to scope out certain details. Visiting a hotel during check-out time is a great way to see which rooms offer the best views. The housekeeping staff has no idea who I am. I'm sure when they see me they assume I'm a guest in the hotel looking to compare rooms. I'm a white guy. I can't imagine a man of color doing what I do and not arousing suspicion.