Bette Midler says gay marriage won't work (!)

[Rick Munroe]

While all you Bette fans are enjoying her new tour, I thought you might be interested to know that while she thinks gay men should have all the rights of civil unions, she doesn't think it will work because we are all too promiscuous. She pretty much said on Larry King (Nov. 26, 2003) that we're incapable of being faithful to our partners and that every gay man is a slut. Here's a transcript:

 

MIDLER: It's a real dilemma, but I think it's a dilemma to a lot of people. I don't think it really hurts anybody. I think -- I think -- to tell you the truth, my -- my -- many, many, many of the homosexual men that I know -- I can't speak for the women because -- the way I feel -- the women, they can look at each other from across a crowded room, and suddenly, they're mates for life. You know, they -- you know, they'll go out for a Coke, and they'll just be, you know, move in, and that'll be the end of it. But gay men, they like to -- you know, they like to move around. They like to have -- you know, they're -- that's part of it. That's part of the fun of being a gay man. So if they're married, does that mean they're not going to cheat, they're only going to be with one...

 

KING: Well, that's what they say, they want to make the commitment.

 

MIDLER: They want to make the commitment...

 

KING: Why shouldn't society let them make the commitment?

 

MIDLER: Well, it's interesting.

 

KING: That's what they're saying.

 

MIDLER: It's very interesting. I'm really wondering how -- what that commitment is going to be about.

 

[br]

 

I love what Margaret Cho had to say about it on her blog:

 

"These statements are not much different than what Falwell and all the 700 club posse are saying, who say that homosexuality is like polygamy or bestiality. What the fuck, Bette?...

 

"I mean, it is funny to joke about how gay men do have a defined sex culture that springs forth from a history of having to hide their identity in darkened alleys and unmarked doors that would open into speakeasy barrooms, where there was no speaking, just easy, and this legacy has followed us into this new century, but it is a bittersweet joke. It is about how when we are not allowed to be who we are, we take whatever we can get. Times have changed. Sexual predator is an identity we are desperately trying to shed. And then we have gay icons, who have built their empires on gay money distancing themselves in a 'safe' way from the fans who made them 'divine' in the first place making an argument against the fact that we are not human enough to have families, to have commitments, to have the same rights as all other Americans. Heterosexual Americans. Since when has the dick flailing, cruising, drug addicted, circuit boy/man/queen/hairdresser/std carrier become the symbol for all of gay culture? Admittedly, I am like that. But that is just me. And who is to take on the authority to claim that all gay Americans are just examples of this stereotype? I don't understand what Miss M is trying to do, besides sit on the fence of conservative ideals while still maintaining a bullshit posture that she has gay friends, so it is cool.

 

"I have gay friends who are raising families, who are struggling to hang onto their kids, who stay home at night and rent 'Beaches' time and time again because there is nothing else for them out there in the scene anymore. They have grown up and have babies and are living the lives that they have always wanted to live. They are loving each other and that is enough, just like it is enough for countless families all over the world. I have straight friends who will stay out all night, cheating on their spouses, doing drugs, dancing shirtless to house music. It is fun to make jokes about the status of gay culture and it being based on sex, drugs and Paul Oakenfold, but really, the laughter has two distinct beats to it. The first is the acknowledgement of this ever present social view of who we are, and the second is our own failed attempts at aligning ourselves to it, because when that is all you have to identify with, who else are you supposed to be?

 

"I suppose that you are old school, Bette, where gay is one way, and that is that, and you sit in your mermaid tail and wheel yourself around in a wheelchair flashing your green sequins and judging the distance between yourself and your audience. I don't blame you for that, and all I am saying is that maybe you need to return to the sea now. You have spent enough time on the beach."

[duke37]

Thanks for posting this Rick.

 

I am very impressed by what Margaret Cho said. Now I have one MORE reason to regret missing her show last month.

 

But to be fair to Bette, isn't her position argued by some gay men themselves? Isn't the idea of a committed (monagamous or otherwise) relationship considered "science fiction" by some gay men? Does having gay relationships sanctioned by society have any impact on men who DONT want it or maybe even don't believe its possible. Perhaps Bette is only guilty of assuming everyone thinks the way her friends and aquaintances think.

 

Jeff

[Guest Mikel]

For all the "liberal" views that Bette espoused during her show, surprisingly, one very "conservative" view she emphasized was long-term commitments in marriage. She really poked fun at the "Hollywood" types that are "in-love" today and divorced tomorrow. She mentioned several by name using their photos on the large screen video. So, at least she is not just criticising, in her opinion, the gays.

[Guest alanm]

I saw Midler on Larry King when she made those remarks. As bad as it is to read her comments, believe me it was worse to listen to her stumble around in answering the question. It appeared that Midler had given little thought to the issue of gay marriage, so what she said was truly her honest response at that moment. In a sense, I admire her for saying what she really thought. On the other hand, I was very

surprised that she was so unprepared for the question.

 

I have always wanted to know as much as possible about people in the public eye whom I admire, good or bad does not really change my opinion. Although if Bette had said that she had become a born again Christain, who fully supports all of George Bush's actions in Iraq I would have had trouble living with that -- for about 10 minutes. Hey, Midler is 58. Most people at 58 are as current with the times as anyone who is 18 or 28, Midler appear to be 58 in the way our grandparents were 58.

 

I am looking forward to seeing Bette in Philadelphia on Thursday night. She is one of the best entertainers I have ever seen.

[bigjake8]

This kind of tells you were her head is at (other than up her ass). Men Bad, Women Good. She's a Lifetime Chick. Guess she found out what her husband has been up to.

 

She part of the old gay vanguard. Shes a dinosaur, and one day we'll be able to stickj a straw in her and drill for oil.

[FrancoDiSantisxxx]

S&M

 

So this means all those Barbara fans were right all along?

 

I agree with the post that commented on how poorly thought out Ms. Midler appeared. I also agree that she is (or has become) very conservative in her views in her middle age, she has been expressing such views for a while now. She also said, to paraphrase, that she was upset and heartbroken to know all the men who were watching her during the Continental Baths days may not be dead or dying of AIDS and said, as much, that multiple sex partners and sex outside relationships, not simply promiscuity itself, was a large cause of AIDS.

 

I do not believe she is either homophobic or AIDSphobic any more than I believe some candidates who state they are against gay marriage are homophobic. I also do not think she has done much interesting in about 15 years entertainment wise and I would go see Margaret Cho before Bette Midler.

 

Without getting this thread into a long discourse, which we already discussed here in depth, I would be more interested in hearing that Ms. Midler (or any other public figure) was asked if she was in favor of legal rights for same sex couples, such as inheritance, hospital visitation, etc.

[+ Lucky]

"She part of the old gay vanguard. Shes a dinosaur"

 

Other than literacy, your remarks about the old gay vanguard are disturbing. Where would gay men be today without that old vanguard forging the way? Or are you just another ungrateful fag who resents the fact that he has to be identified as a descendant of these dinosaurs?

[Guest alanm]

Lucky,

 

I have great respect for you and have learned a lot from your posting about Broadway and off-Broadway.

 

Having said that, I am a little disturbed to read, in books published over the last 20+ that many of the most famous gay icons, like Bette Davis, Marlene Dietrich and even Judy Garland had many of the same feelings against gays as the general population. Yes, they were more tolerant than many others, but not a lot. Maria Riva's book about her mother, Marlene Dietrich, is particularly disturbing because Riva herself seems so intolerant toward the lesbians and gays who surrounded Dietrich in the last 30 years of her long life.

 

As I mentioned above, Midler's comments on Larry King do not bother me greatly; the same is true of Davis, Dietrich and Garland. All four ladies did much more to help us than hurt us. But, I can understand others taking it more personally than I do.

[trilingual]

Not being gay herself, it's not surprising that Bette's exposure to gay men comes from her youthful experiences at the Continental Baths (where I was one of the gay dinosaurs who saw her perform, dressed in a towel, before she became famous) and from the show-biz gays she encounters in her working world. Unfortunately, it looks like Bette has generalized from that experience (as many other people have done) to assume that all gay men act the way the clients of the Continental did, or her show-biz friends do.

 

Having been one of the Continental crowd, I certainly can't throw stones. It was divine to be young and gay in the late 60s and 70s! But I'm not 21 anymore; I'm 57 and things change. Bette may not have seen that, but most of us have: even if we WANTED to continue being trashy every night, those of us who've grown older don't have the energy for it anymore. The mind may say "disco," but the body says "bedtime!"

 

And once people get involved in serious relationships, the desire to go out all the time diminishes. It may not go away entirely, and many gay couples have "open" relationships, but that doesn't mean they're straying every night! Or even once a month! There's a lot to be said for the comforts of home and the arms of the man you love!

 

Margaret Cho (whose performances I find a bit extreme, but who has a brilliant mind) got it exactly right. Hopefully Bette will do some reflection and realize that it's not only straight people and lesbians who want or are capable of committed long-term relationships. There are millions of gay men in such relationships now, so the proof is indeed in the pudding! So have a slice, Bette!

[guyinsf]

I have a slightly different reaction to this.

 

First of all, the way these words were transcribed conveys Bette's typical speaking pattern when attempting to be funny. I really wonder if she truly believes what she said or if she just half believes it and also recognizes that it's good (if cliched) comedic fodder. (Note that Bette doesn't say that she thinks gay marriage is wrong or harmful, she just doesn't think it will "work.")

 

Secondly, there are many people in the gay community who believe what Bette said. I've seen more than a few gay comics who use the same stereotypes to get laughs. On New Year's Eve, for example, I saw Marga Gomez who used similar stereotypes to get laughs. It's true Marga Gomez didn't put these "observations" into the context of discussing gay marriage, but the underlying message was similar: men are sex pigs and women develope instant relationships which quickly become non-sexual.

 

Ps. If I read the above comment about her bathhouse days correctly, it is truly sickening if she said she regrets that some of the men in her audiences at that time are still alive. Did I really read that correctly? She laments that they did not all get infected with HIV and die?

[Guest bighugbearphx]

One can look at it as kind of a "chicken or the egg" dilemma ...

 

Is gay marriage doomed because many gay men are prone to transitory relationships based primarily on sex?

 

-OR-

 

Are many gay men prone to transitory relationships based primarily on sex BECAUSE we are conditioned into forming these since the beginning of time because we lack the option of forming a legally-sanctioned long-term relationship?

 

If heterosexual marriage was outlawed today, chances are most new heterosexual couples would continue to form committed monogamous relationships, because they are conditioned to do that already. But, give it a couple of generations in the future, with younger people realizing that there is no legal bonds requiring them to stay together, and I think you'd see fewer long-term relationships among them.

 

Of course, heterosexual couples with children have another "bond" together that same-sex couples don't have ... unless they adopt. But I personally think it is a bit sad when a couple stays together ONLY because they have a child to raise.

[Bilbo]

As far as I know, it wasn't a gay person who said, "Hey, for a lark, let's get married and get it annulled tomorow!"

[HooBoy]

I do not read this sort of thing because I am a personal friend of Bette. I know her and have known her far longer than anyone here.

 

Just as I have seen people taking newpaper reports, which are skewed to sell papers, taking sentences the editor thought would be selaticous, be they out of content -- they'll sell papers.

 

Then, people will rerprint them and soon everyone believes them

 

And guys -- you are so far from the real truth.

 

Why cannot we as M4M'ERS BEGIN or ATTEMPT to begin a new standard for those of our ilk???

 

Sure, go ahead and repeat the salacious gossip, but would it not be correct for those in th3e know to make the correction?

 

Unfortually, Bette really doen't care what the fuck you say about her.

 

You're still talking about her, aren't you?

 

Don't see a lot of chatter about Paul Newman and Joanne Woordward, and if I do, it's meant with stone silence.

[+ glutes]

Maybe Bette is right.

[Rod Hagen]

Not that I need another website to check on daily, but can I get a link to Cho's Blog? Thanks.

[bigjake8]

Just relax. I was referring to the people that surrounded gay culture, and milked it during that time period. Sorry I didn't make that more clear. I had just woken up, which will also explain my typos.

 

To me, Bette was to gay men back then, what straight couples with baby strollers are to us now.

 

 

>"She part of the old gay vanguard. Shes a dinosaur"

>

>Other than literacy, your remarks about the old gay vanguard

>are disturbing. Where would gay men be today without that old

>vanguard forging the way? Or are you just another ungrateful

>fag who resents the fact that he has to be identified as a

>descendant of these dinosaurs?

[Guest fukamarine]

>In a sense, I admire her for saying what she

>really thought. On the other hand, I was very

>surprised that she was so unprepared for the question.

 

You admire her just because she said what she really thought?

 

Guess you would have admired Hitler too when he said what he really thought, i.e. "Gas the Jews" or words to that effect!

 

>Although if Bette had said that she had

>become a born again Christain, who fully supports all of

>George Bush's actions in Iraq I would have had trouble living

>with that

 

You think that is worse than her saying Gays can't commit? Hmmmmm

 

Midler should wake up to the fact that if it wasn't for the gay population that made her what she is today - she probably wouldn't be famous enough to appear on LKL.

 

It sounds to me as if she views her so-called gay friends, and all gays, for that matter as nothing more than fabulous, fun people, some of which should always be included in every party invite list. But people of real consequence? Forget it!

 

For me - Bette Midler? Forget it!

 

fukamarine

[bigjake8]

Youre absolutely right. I don't buy her albums anyway, so it doesn't really matter what she thinks. I take back my previous post, I had just woken up and was feeling catty.

 

We should be more concerned with what our politicians think, since they are the ones making decisions.

 

 

>I do not read this sort of thing because I am a personal

>friend of Bette. I know her and have known her far longer

>than anyone here.

>

>Just as I have seen people taking newpaper reports, which are

>skewed to sell papers, taking sentences the editor thought

>would be selaticous, be they out of content -- they'll sell

>papers.

>

>Then, people will rerprint them and soon everyone believes

>them

>

>And guys -- you are so far from the real truth.

>

>Why cannot we as M4M'ERS BEGIN or ATTEMPT to begin a new

>standard for those of our ilk???

>

>Sure, go ahead and repeat the salacious gossip, but would it

>not be correct for those in th3e know to make the correction?

>

>Unfortually, Bette really doen't care what the fuck you say

>about her.

>

>You're still talking about her, aren't you?

>

>Don't see a lot of chatter about Paul Newman and Joanne

>Woordward, and if I do, it's meant with stone silence.

[Guest fukamarine]

>As I mentioned above, Midler's comments on Larry King do not

>bother me greatly; the same is true of Davis, Dietrich and

>Garland. All four ladies did much more to help us than hurt

>us. But, I can understand others taking it more personally

>than I do.

 

 

Could I please ask you to take a minute and explain to us exactly what Davis, Dietrich and Garland did to help us. Your logic completly escapes me.

 

fukamarine

[Guest fukamarine]

>As far as I know, it wasn't a gay person who said, "Hey, for

>a lark, let's get married and get it annulled tomorow!"

 

Well she may not be but him we're not so sure about. OK - just wishfull thinking, I know.

 

 

fukamarine

[Guest alanm]

As I posted above, I saw the interview w/ Bette on the Larry King Show on the night before Thanksgiving. She was not trying to be funny or ironic. Bette was genuinely thrown by the question and had no idea how to answer.

[Guest alanm]

Ah, Hooboy, Bette Midler made the comments on Larry King. I heard what she said (either live or on tape)because I watched the show. The quotes from the tape are totally accurate. I am however impressed that you and Bette are friends. I am Bette is also.

 

 

To questions about why I would be more upset if Midler had said she was a born again Christian who supported Bush on Iraq, the answer is the Bette was not asked about domestic partnership benefits, only marriage. If she had made the same scattered negative comments about domestic partnership benefits, I would have been extremely upset.

[Rick Munroe]

>I am Bette is also.

 

Alan, that was very existential.

[Guest alanm]

Thanks for a good laugh. My proof reading skills are awful. I am probably the least existential person around.

 

I very much enjoyed your quotes from Margaret Cho.

[Rick Munroe]

>Sure, go ahead and repeat the salacious gossip

 

HooBoy, I honestly wasn't intending to "gossip" and I'm sorry if you took offense. I am a fan of Ms. Midler, I have tickets to Kiss My Brass, and I'm looking forward to the new "Stepford Wives" movie. I took those quotes directly from the transcript at CNN's website, to which I was directed by a link at Margaret Cho's blog (for Hagen: http://www.margaretcho.com/blog/blog.htm). To me, this was as newsworthy on a gay message board as Diana Ross' DUI arrest. As I said in my original post, Bette "thinks gay men should have all the rights of civil unions" and here is that portion of the transcript:

 

KING: Should they be allowed to marry?

 

MIDLER: Should gay people be allowed to marry? That's a really good question. I think -- I'm a really big believer in all the civil rights that everyone else has. I believe in gay people sharing the civil rights. I believe that they're entitled to them. I believe they're entitled to the insurances. I believe they're entitled to all those things...

 

KING: Visits in the hospital, make decisions...

 

MIDLER: All that stuff, yes. As far as marriage is concerned, I come from a -- you know, doesn't seem to be hurting anybody. You know, I'm of two minds. On the one hand, I'm a married woman. You know, I mean, I've -- I took vows. I took civil vows, though. I did not take religious vows. And so I...

 

KING: By choice?

 

MIDLER: Well, yes, by choice. So I -- you know, and when it comes to religion, I don't really know what to say because I'm -- I'm in my tribe, and I try to be a good Jew, but on the other hand, I don't know what the -- how people feel. My feeling is, Well, who's it really going to hurt? But then, if you're a religious person, you're get all knocked out because of the things that...

 

KING: By the way, I saw you in "Fiddler."

 

(end of quote)

 

This cracks me up. She's in the middle of a serious thought and suddenly he blurts out, "By the way, I saw you in 'Fiddler.'"?? That's insane. :o (Or was he trying to rescue her?)

 

If anyone wants to read the entire transcript, here it is: http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0311/26/lkl.00.html