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Je suis Charlie


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Every newspaper in the free world should print a caricature of Mohammed on their front page tomorrow in solidarity. Religion of peace my ass.

 

Jesus can take a joke. He has to – just look at the Tea Party.

 

http://blog.sfgate.com/morford/files/2015/01/Comedy-Central-Jesus-Cartoon.jpg

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Link to a post by a French journalist living in Paris who works in politically conservative English-language media and was friends with some of the people killed.

 

http://shezan.livejournal.com/357986.html

 

I love the cover she picked to feature. The caption reads "Mohammed overwhelmed [or perhaps "hemmed in"] by fundamentalists" -- she's (freely) translated the speech bubble.

 

(to be continued in the next post)

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I'm sure my next point will be controversial, and some may think I'm being disrespectful (I'm really not, but I understand why some people might see it that way), but I can't not mention it, especially since the cover I like so much was drawn for a special issue that contained one of the cartoons I'm about to mention.

 

Some of the cartoons Charlie Hebdo published or produced over the years had no purpose other than to shock, offend, or to paint all Muslims as terrorists, like the infamous Danish cartoon of Mohammed wearing a bomb for a turban (message: islam equals terrorism, and all Muslims are terrorists) or a cartoon of a naked Mohammed on all fours. I haven't seen that one, so maybe it has some context I'm missing, but on the face of it, it doesn't seem to have any purpose other than ridicule. Publishing them was a perfectly legal exercise of rights I hold sacred, but it wasn't perfectly good, and I wish they had not published them. That's not a justification for property damage, let alone murder, but given that Muslims in Europe are economically downtrodden, socially despised, and looked down by many -- something like a combination of the attitudes toward African-Americans and Hispanics in the US -- publishing and standing behind such images isn't a praiseworthy thing to do.

 

Besides, they fired a writer for writing an anti-Semitic article (as in anti-Jewish -- Arabs are Semites too) that was far milder than any of the cartoons against Islam on the expressed basis that anti-Semitism led to the deaths of millions at the hands of the German government. So does that mean Muslims will be entitled to the same consideration only if enough Europeans and European governments kill them in hate/bias crimes or imprison them unjustly, without due process, or without reasonable cause?

 

I thought about going into why I have no problem with anything Charlie Hedbo has published slamming Christianity and Christian institutions, including a truly scurrilous but profanely funny drawing of a trinitarian threeway with Jesus in the middle and God the Father as everyone's bitch, but I'll confine myself to noting that in addition to deserving much of the opprobrium sent its way, Christianity is the dominant religious tradition in Europe. It also happens to be my religious tradition and if it means what it says it does, it's big and strong enough to survive the worst blasphemy and most profane ridicule anyone can dish out.

 

So my "Je suis Charlie" is a tribute to the people who were attacked, some of whom were injured and some of whom were murdered. The execution of this horrific act does not mean that I agree with all of the magazine's editorial decisions.

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I have never agreed with everything anyone said. That includes not agreeing with many of the things I have said 5 seconds after I said it. Je suis Charlie means to me, not that I agree with or condone anything that was said or written or professed by that magazine, rather that i as an individual am not afraid of ideas, of a free an open and at times hostile exchange of words. What I am afraid of is a world where you do not have the support of society to use the right of free expression to lobby for unpleasant, controversial and unpopular opinions. Integration was unpopular. Gay marriage was controverial. And anti Islamic cartoons for the sake of sales are unpleasant and more, repugnant really. So I am Charlie, no matter what you write or what you express in a political forum, as long as I have the right and the opportunity to speak my truth.

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Some of the cartoons Charlie Hebdo published or produced over the years had no purpose other than to shock, offend, or to paint all

 

Those same words have been used to attack "Saturday Night Live" skits or SCTV skits or articles in "The Onion". They've also been used about sermons from evangelicals like Pat Robertson, etc.

 

You can have objections about what people say and not show up with a semi-automatic machine gun to shoot shit up.

 

If you visit an Arab country and get invited to dinner, do not accidentally sit in a way that shows your host the soles of your feet. It is considered a grave insult. The proper response is being insulted, not gunfire.

 

I'm all for respecting cultural boundaries. I'd like to see the favor returned.

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Those same words have been used to attack "Saturday Night Live" skits or SCTV skits or articles in "The Onion". They've also been used about sermons from evangelicals like Pat Robertson, etc.

 

You can have objections about what people say and not show up with a semi-automatic machine gun to shoot shit up.

 

If you visit an Arab country and get invited to dinner, do not accidentally sit in a way that shows your host the soles of your feet. It is considered a grave insult. The proper response is being insulted, not gunfire.

 

I'm all for respecting cultural boundaries. I'd like to see the favor returned.

 

+1. Religion of peace: believe it or not.

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Guest boiworship08

It will be interesting how the two French terror attacks impact the fortunes of Marine LePen, UKIP and the Pegida demonstrations in neighboring Germany.

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I have never agreed with everything anyone said. That includes not agreeing with many of the things I have said 5 seconds after I said it. Je suis Charlie means to me, not that I agree with or condone anything that was said or written or professed by that magazine, rather that i as an individual am not afraid of ideas, of a free an open and at times hostile exchange of words. What I am afraid of is a world where you do not have the support of society to use the right of free expression to lobby for unpleasant, controversial and unpopular opinions. Integration was unpopular. Gay marriage was controverial. And anti Islamic cartoons for the sake of sales are unpleasant and more, repugnant really. So I am Charlie, no matter what you write or what you express in a political forum, as long as I have the right and the opportunity to speak my truth.

 

Probably true for me too (that I've never agreed with everything someone else said), and I am 110% behind you on creating the conditions under which unpopular opinions can be expressed (seeing as I do that myself not infrequently), but I do think many people, especially free press advocates, have taken Je suis Charlie uncritically.

 

If it wasn't clear from what I wrote, I support the magazine's right to publish what they did. I question its wisdom and what it says about the editorial stance of the magazine and its reason for it. As the following article says, it amounts to a bunch of white guys punching down, not punching up (as in attacking marginalized people as opposed to attacking the privileged).

 

http://www.hoodedutilitarian.com/2015/01/in-the-wake-of-charlie-hebdo-free-speech-does-not-mean-freedom-from-criticism/

 

And in the spirit of not agreeing with everything someone says, while he makes my main points beautifully, in some spots he's more vehement than I would be comfortable expressing it myself.

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Those same words have been used to attack "Saturday Night Live" skits or SCTV skits or articles in "The Onion". They've also been used about sermons from evangelicals like Pat Robertson, etc.

 

You can have objections about what people say and not show up with a semi-automatic machine gun to shoot shit up.

 

If you visit an Arab country and get invited to dinner, do not accidentally sit in a way that shows your host the soles of your feet. It is considered a grave insult. The proper response is being insulted, not gunfire.

 

I'm all for respecting cultural boundaries. I'd like to see the favor returned.

 

So when have people been shot up in Arab countries for showing the soles of their feet? Hospitality is actually a big deal in Arab and other Middle Eastern countries.

 

Also, not all majority Islamic countries are Arab, and not all Arabs are Muslim, though most who aren't have emigrated away from the area.

 

Islam started out the most tolerant of the three major monotheistic religions. That's no longer true, but the historical record proves it's due to political and cultural changes, not the text or the religion itself as originally conceived. Just like Jesus and the early Church would probably be aghast at much of what has been wrought in their name.

 

Armadillo and oceansunshine -- For some people, Islam is in fact a religion of peace. I worked with one of them. Making broad generalizations about groups other than one's own based on a general impression from media reports is not a whole lot different from someone assuming gay men are pedophiles or perverts.

 

I can't deny that there's a larger admiration for and willingness to engage in political violence among adherents of Islam than other religions. But to say it's not a religion of peace is to imply that the religion and its adherents as a whole, or even the majority, aren't peace-loving. I'm sure the facts don't bear the first out, and I doubt they bear out the second (based on polling data).

 

There are substantial influences that have made Islam as practiced something oppressive in many places, but the problem is fundamentally political and cultural.

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Besides, they fired a writer for writing an anti-Semitic article (as in anti-Jewish -- Arabs are Semites too) ...

 

I'm not trying to start a fight here, QTR. And I realize this wasn't your point at all- but I think it needs to be brought up. Yes in the strictest sense Arabs are Semites. But as far as I can remember, the only time I've ever really heard/seen someone make the argument that 'antisemitism' includes prejudice against Arabs/Muslims too is when an Arabic 'antisemite,' or an apologist for an Arabic 'antisemite, ' tries to explain how he/they can't be an 'antisemite' being as he is a 'Semite' too.

 

 

 

 

 

Islam started out the most tolerant of the three major monotheistic religions. That's no longer true, but the historical record proves it's due to political and cultural changes, not the text or the religion itself as originally conceived. Just like Jesus and the early Church would probably be aghast at much of what has been wrought in their name.

 

I'm willing to be persuaded on this- but I'd need to see your proof. My cursory reading of history says this isn't so. If by chance you are referring to the status of dhimmitude, from my readings, being a dhimmi was not a walk in the park.

 

Another FYI, if reports are true, many Arab communities seem to have no problems with creating and distributing horrible 'antisemitic' children's cartoons, stories, political drawings, etc.

 

I was going to include one here. But instead here is a link to an article about this.

 

http://www.elderofziyon.blogspot.in/2014/03/recent-antisemitic-cartoons-in-arab.html?m=1

 

 

Gman

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People gathered in cities around the world on Sunday to honor the 17 victims who died during three days of bloodshed in Paris last week, and to support freedom of expression.

 

The biggest event was in Paris, where tens of thousands of people, including more than 40 world leaders, streamed into the heart of the city for a rally of national unity, days after the attacks on the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo, police officers and a kosher grocery.

 

A look at the gatherings in other cities across the globe:

 

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BERLIN

 

About 18,000 people gathered in front of the French embassy next to Berlin's iconic Brandenburg Gate in an impressive show of solidarity for the victims of the Paris attacks. Many brought flowers or pencils and help up signs saying "Je suis Charlie" or "Je suis Juif" (I am a Jew).

 

Some protesters also held up cartoons published by the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo and played French chansons on CD players they had brought along. Many participants at the rally were French citizens, but altogether, the crowd reflected the cosmopolitan flair of Berlin — people could be heard speaking a mélange of German, English, French, Russian and many other European languages.

 

Marieke Zwarter, a 24-year-old Dutch university student who studies film and lives in Berlin, said she attended the rally to "show that we should not be afraid and will not allow these terrorists to divide our societies."

 

Her friend, 20-year-old Russian Polina Panfilova, who studies political science in Berlin, was carrying white flowers.

 

"It's important that we're all here," she said. "We are sending a clear signal that we won't let the terrorists win."

 

---

 

LONDON

 

Landmarks including Tower Bridge and the London Eye ferris wheel were lit in the red, white and blue of the French tricolor flag. The French colors were also projected onto the facade of the National Gallery in Trafalgar Square, where more than 1,000 people gathered Sunday in solidarity with the French people.

 

Many carried "Je suis Charlie" signs, and some held pens aloft as a tribute to the slain cartoonists.

 

Mayor Boris Johnson attended the rally and said it had been organized to express with Paris "our feelings of unity in grief and in outrage, and obviously in determination of these two great historic cities of freedom to stand together."

 

London has been hit by several major terrorist attacks, the most lethal in July 2005, when four al-Qaida-inspired bombers killed 52 people on three subway trains and a bus.

 

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ROME

 

Thousands of people participated in a silent demonstration Sunday in front of the French Embassy, holding aloft pencils, candles and placards reading: "Je suis Charlie." The demonstration was jointly organized by the French consulate and by Italy's Muslim community.

 

"We condemn this terrible attack with absolute firmness and we want to express solidarity to the French people and to the French ambassador in the name of all the Muslim communities in Italy," said Foad Aodi, president of Comai, an association of Muslims in Italy.

 

Elene Bompere, a French citizen living in Rome, said the attacks on the satirical newspaper Charlie Hebdo and a kosher market "provokes a strong reaction."

 

A small demonstration was also held in Venice's Campo Manin, drawing many young people. Participants included the president of Venice's Islamic community, Mohamed Amin Al Ahdab, and the head of the lagoon city's Jewish community, Paolo Gnignati.

 

---

 

BRUSSELS

 

About 20,000 people marched silently through the center of Brussels, carrying banners reading "Je suis Charlie" and "United Against Hatred."

 

A bomb threat Sunday afternoon forced the evacuation of the offices of the offices of the Brussels newspaper Le Soir, but several hours later there was no indication of anything serious going on.

 

In the city of Ghent, in western Belgium, about 3,000 people took part in a silent march.

 

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VIENNA

 

With flags at half-staff over Parliament and government buildings, about 12.000 people joined Austrian political and religious leaders in downtown Vienna to pay homage to the victims of the Paris terrorist shootings.

 

A government statement served notice that official Austria would not be cowed by the attacks. "No one can extinguish our democracy and our freedom," said the statement, read by two well-known Austrian actors. Others read texts by famed German writers focusing on equality and brotherhood

 

The crowd first formed in front of the French Embassy, then moved to the square separating the palaces serving as the offices of Austrian President Heinz Fischer and Chancellor Werner Faymann. Both were in attendance at the rally, along with government ministers, Roman Catholic Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn, and the heads of Austria's Muslim, Jewish, Orthodox Christian and other religious communities.

 

The crowd, many of them holding white-on-black "Je suis Charlie" signs, held a moment of silence for the attack victims. The Vienna State Opera Choir sang works by Mozart and Verdi.

 

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MADRID

 

Hundreds of people gathered in Madrid to express their revulsion at the Paris attacks and support for freedom of speech.

 

Several hundred Muslims carrying banners saying "Not in our name" rallied at Madrid's Atocha square, next to the train station where in March 2004 bombs on rush-hour trains killed 191 people in Europe's deadliest Islamic terror attack. A small group of Muslim religious leaders then laid a wreath with a ribbon saying "In solidarity with France" outside the French Embassy in Madrid where the ambassador received them.

 

At nearby Puerta del Sol square, hundreds of mainly French protesters drew cartoons and held aloft signs saying "Je suis Charlie."

 

Rallies were also held in other Spanish cities, including Barcelona and Valencia.

 

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MOSCOW

 

About a hundred people, mostly French citizens, took part in a so-called Silent March in Moscow's Gorky Park to honor the 17 victims of the terror attacks in France and show support for freedom of expression.

 

"I am a French citizen who wants to tell the terrorists that we will fight against the terror and for freedom," said France's ambassador to Russia, Jean-Maurice Ripert, who was among the marchers.

 

In the evening, dozens of Muscovites came to the French Embassy to lay flowers and express their solidarity.

 

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MONTREAL

 

Thousands of people, repeatedly chanting "Charlie," marched through downtown Montreal to honor the victims of the terrorist attacks in Paris.

 

Laurent Beltritti, a French flight attendant on a Montreal stopover, was among those who participating in the march.

 

"As I couldn't attend the event in France with my friends and family, I thought it was important to come here to show my solidarity and to protest in favor of freedom and the right to express oneself without being killed by fanatics," Beltritti said.

 

Montreal Mayor Denis Coderre also took part in the march, which ended at the French Consulate, and said there needs to be "zero-tolerance against fanaticism."

 

In Quebec City, Premier Philippe Couillard attended a similar event.

 

"We have to reaffirm our faith in democracy and freedom," Couillard said. "The worst thing we could do would be to retreat into fear."

 

Other rallies and vigils were to be held in Ottawa, Toronto and Vancouver later Sunday.

 

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ISTANBUL

 

Scores of demonstrators gathered in central Istanbul for a small solidarity rally with France.

 

Minutes after the remembrance got underway, a man, apparently critical of the gesture, tried to cut them off, shouting "Muslim blood is being shed!" The man was detained and carried away by riot police.

 

The silent march continued despite the interruption. About 120 people holding up pencils, pens and posters reading "We are all Charlie" walked down Istanbul's main Istiklal Avenue toward the French consulate.

 

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BEIRUT

 

Around 200 protesters gathered in the Lebanese capital Beirut to condemn the attacks in France, carrying signs that said "We are not afraid," and "Je Suis Ahmed," — referring to the French Muslim police officer, Ahmed Merabet, who was killed as he confronted the gunmen fleeing from the offices of the satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo.

 

The demonstration was made more poignant for its location: a reflective pool built to commemorate a prominent Arab writer, Samir Kassir, who was assassinated 10 years ago during a spate of killings that targeted politicians and writers living in Lebanon who were critical of neighboring Syria.

 

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JERUSALEM

 

Several hundred people gathered at a memorial ceremony at Jerusalem's City Hall to express solidarity with France and the French Jewish community. The gathering, led by Mayor Nir Barket and the city's chief rabbi, included many French Jewish immigrants to Israel.

 

Many participants held signs saying "Je Suis Charlie," or "Israel is Charlie," written in Hebrew. The city said it was hoisting 1,500 French flags throughout Jerusalem, and setting up a makeshift memorial downtown where people could post sympathy notes.

 

Many Israelis have identified with France, both because of Israel's long history battling Islamic militants and because four of the victims in Paris were Jewish.

 

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu led a delegation to attend the mass rally in Paris. The Israeli leader called on French Jews to move to Israel amid a rising tide of attacks on their community. He also announced that the four Jewish victims, killed in a hostage standoff at a kosher supermarket, were expected to be buried in Israel.

 

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RAMALLAH

 

About 200 Palestinians and foreign supporters held a solidarity rally in the central Manara Square in the West Bank city of Ramallah. Participants held French and Palestinian flags.

 

Yasser Abed Rabbo, a senior Palestinian official, said France and the Palestinians share the same values — liberty, equality and "saving the modern civilization against the criminals who are spreading all across the Arab world and they have attacked the heart of France."

 

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GAZA CITY

 

In Gaza, about 20 people held a candlelight vigil outside the French Cultural Center in solidarity with France and to condemn the Paris attacks.

 

"We are here in this vigil against terrorism," said Raji Sourani, director of the Palestinian Center for Human Rights. "The French people are friends of the Palestinian people and support them, so we are supporting them in return."

 

The French Center has been closed to the public since December when unknown assailants detonated explosives targeting its exterior walls several weeks after a similar attack on the building.

 

Gaza's Hamas leaders have condemned the attack on the French satirical newspaper, but have pointedly refrained from mentioning the attack on the kosher supermarket in which four Jews were killed.

 

On Sunday, a Hamas spokesman, Fawzi Barhoum, condemned Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu for trying to make a connection between the Palestinian militants and the Paris attackers.

 

"Hamas'... resistance is a legitimate one. It is a party that protects our citizens, our lands and our holy places," he said.

 

---

 

SYDNEY

 

Hundreds of people rallied in downtown Sydney's Martin Place, a plaza where a shotgun-wielding Islamic State movement supporter took 18 people hostage in a cafe last month. The standoff ended 16 hours later when police stormed the cafe in a barrage of gunfire to free the captives. Two of the hostages and the gunman died.

 

More than 500 Australians and French nationals stood side by side holding signs bearing the words "Je suis Charlie" — French for "I am Charlie" — and "Freedom" as they marched in condemnation of the Paris attacks.

 

"We have to stand united," France's ambassador to Australia, Christophe Lecourtier, told the crowd.

 

Among the French now residing in Sydney who attended the rally was Felix Delhomme, 27.

 

"People are sending a message that we're all together," he said. "We want to be able to maintain our freedom of speech. We are mostly concerned about the backlash there might be against the Muslim community. They're not more responsible for what happened than I am."

 

---

 

TOKYO

 

A couple of hundred people, mostly French residents of Japan, gathered in the courtyard of the French Institute in Tokyo, holding a minute of silence and singing "La Marseillaise," the French national anthem. They then held up pieces of paper that read "Je suis Charlie" in French or the Japanese translation.

 

The institute, which functions as a language school, was running as normal during the ceremony, with students shuffling in, as the French flag — tied with a black ribbon — hung over the balcony.

 

"I came here to give support to fellow artists and I believe we should stand so these things don't happen again," said Alexandre Kerbam, 43, a French resident of Japan who works as a body painter and hair stylist.

 

---

 

NEW YORK

 

On Saturday, hundreds of mostly French-speaking New Yorkers braved below-freezing temperatures and held pens aloft at a rally in Washington Square Park, where a leather-clad pole dancer gyrated in a provocative display meant to reflect the over-the-top cartoons in Charlie Hebdo.

 

The dancer's live soundtrack came from a concert grand piano hauled into the Manhattan square for the occasion as she twirled under a sign that read "Je suis Charlie."

 

Olivier Souchard, a French-born New York resident who brought his family and friends, explained the fierce support for freedom of expression that drove Charlie Hebdo's images of the Prophet Mohammed.

 

"What we are afraid of is less freedom for more security — it's muzzling," Souchard said. He said he's been in touch with his friend Philippe Lancon, a Charlie Hebdo columnist who is recovering from surgery after being shot in the face in the attack.

 

 

source: http://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/article6005166.html#storylink=cpy

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I saw your post, G-man, and have thoughts about it but won't have time to respond until tomorrow, possibly not until late.

 

I am going to keep harping on this until it's recognized that (a) not all Arabs are Muslims (though most are) and more important, NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE ARAB. What is the largest majority Muslim country in the world? Oh right, it's INDO-freaking-NESIA. Sheesh.

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Indonesia's also the country with the largest Muslim population. Pretty much the same thing as largest majority Muslim country, though. And while it's had its share of ethnic/religious problems and there are Islamic fundamentalists there, it's nothing like it is many other places in the world. So it has more to do with how the cultural and political currents in a country influences the way Islam is practiced.

 

Also, there are huge differences in motivation between Islamic fundamentalists outside of Europe -- basically, countries of origin -- and those from the West who become radicalized, not all of whom come from families or ethnic groups with a Muslim tradition. See this article by a French leftist, which characterizes Charlie Hebdo differently from the way I do (I need to do more research on French laicism/secularism to evaluate this aspect of it) but does a good job of explaining the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in France (and by extension throughout Europe). He also points out that the conditions to which Islamic fundamentalism is seen as a solution have little to do with Arabs or the Middle East or any other stereotype of Muslims and more to do with lack of opportunity and inequality within France. In other words, France not living up to its ideals when it comes to residents and citizens of foreign (to France, anyway) extraction who happen to be Muslim.

 

http://blogs.mediapart.fr/blog/olivier-tonneau/110115/charlie-hebdo-letter-my-british-friends

 

Personally, I see a connection between such conversion stories and the conversion of the Tsarnaev brothers (or more precisely the older brother) to radical Islam. In their case, it was as much a response to personal frustrations as a response to frustrations borne out of their ethnic identity, but for them radicalism was a way to cope with personal problems, not some deeply felt political ideology. Sometimes people (almost always men) resort to violence to deal with their own unhappiness. Bowing shit up (or shooting them) is cathartic, amirite?

 

Anyway, back to Muslim tolerance. I can't pinpoint it exactly, though it's probably no later than the 8th century CE, but it's derived from an article I read in an issue of Biblical Archaeology Review I borrowed from the Modern Orthodox rabbi who lived next door about a community -- I believe it was Ephesus -- in what is now Turkey that was either majority Muslim or where Muslims were in charge of the government. The archaeological record suggest this was a place where Jews, Christians, and Muslims lived together in a peace that would have been impossible in majority Jewish areas (assuming there were any, which there might not have been) or majority Christian areas. This was a time when Muslims, viewing Jews and Christians as fellow people of the book (remember, the Quran presents Ishmael as their Abraham), did not see them as their natural enemies.

 

I'd also cite the Moors in Spain, who allowed Christians and Jews to practice their religion and didn't impose their own on them. But when the Moors were expelled, so were the Jews. The Spanish Inquisition started up not much later. I'll also mention Saladin, who was more tolerant and less brutal than many of the Christian leaders and warriors of the various Crusades. Jerusalem under Saladin was more tolerant than Jerusalem was under Christian rule or than Jerusalem is these days.

 

As for the meaning of the term "Semite," I get you. I'm not using it that way. It's a quirk of language that it's the term that's been applied to anti-Jewish discrimination, persecution, and stereotypes. But it's useful to remember that there is a common ethnic heritage, which itself suggests that the Jews, who after all were dispersed from historical Israel through various diasporas, don't have a greater right to the land than the Arabs who've lived there for thousands of years and who were not responsible for kicking the Jews out to begin with.

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Sorry for the additional post, but it doesn't really fit with the one I just made. Je suis Achmed, after the police office who was executed on the sidewalk outside the Charlie Hebdo offices, is another hashtag that's been used in addition to or as an alternative to "Je suis Charlie". I saw (but have no time to locate right now) a tweet that mentioned that Achmed died protecting the offices of a magazine that ridiculed his religion. That not only brings a tear to my eye, it's how I define courage and defense of free speech.

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I will agree that treatment of the Jews may have been slightly better under some Muslim periods of Muslim rule vs living in Christendom But it was no walk in the park at anytime. For another view of the life of a dhimmi I refer you to

 

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths3/MFtreatment.html

 

As for your statement regarding life in Jerusalem currently, I strongly disagree. And even if you were to say that Arabs are discriminated against in Jerusalem currently, then I would reply that their treatment in all of Israel in general is better than the treatment of Jews and Christians in most Islamic dominated countries.

 

We may have to disagree on who has a better right to the land. But if you believe Native Americans have valid points then you would have to support the Jews.

 

Gman

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