Keeping the closet door locked .

[Guest RetrdEscrt]

I've often wondered why people stay in the closet with the thread on one poster 'coming out' i thought it would be interesting to see the point of view from the other side.

 

I have met many clients over the years who were firmly in the closet for a number of reasons -family pressures,job,lifestyle etc but i find it amazing that in the year 2003 people are still forced to hide who they really are for fear that they will be fired or ostracised(sp!) for sleeping with someone of the same sex.

 

Are people that scared of telling their friends and families ?If so WHY ?

[dick_nyc]

Personally I don't think it is anybody's business who I sleep with or when. I am not a subscriber to the idea that there is a gay lifestyle at all and if not who cares.

Some of us also work for companies that are notoriously conservative and particularly in the current economy when jobs are not all that easy to find coming out to the company seems like a not good idea. Also some of us are employed in positions which are not conducive to bringing up the subject at all.

It just seems like being gay is not the whole of my existence. I am gay for sex. Beyond that in what way am I any different from anybody else. I still like kids; I still eat food; I still watch sports; I still enjoy traveling to new places; I still have my friends, both gay and straight. Then in my particular situation what is the advantage of coming out. People who would accept it know; people who would not accept it have no need to know. I don't carry a sign on my back saying I am gay, but I wouldn't deny it if asked. It is just not a topic for normal conversation.

I particularly hate those people who decided that if I am gay then I must come out. I will make that decision for myself and I expect that decision to be accepted by all.

[Guest Merlin]

I mostly agree with dick. But I do have some friends who would not be friends if the knew that I am gay. They probably suspect, but once it became fact, they would feel pressured to avoid me. More over while many of my straight friends and relatives would accept it, the relationship would change. Basically, I am used to the life I live and have no desire to change it. Why should I? What would I gain by coming out?

[+ Charlie]

I think there is a distinction to be made between "coming out" and just being out, just as there is a distinction between being "in the closet" and being discreet. "Coming out" is a political act, a kind of public announcement, for many people; for others it is more private, such as coming out to one's family or employer, but it still involves choosing to make a declaration. "Being out" is simply being oneself, not hiding one's natural inclination and just living as one wishes to live. Someone who is "in the closet" deliberately hides his sexual orientation from others, and often from himself, and will deny his orientation when questioned about it. Someone who is discreet feels no desire to publicize his sexual orientation where there is no need to do so, but will not hide it or deny it except when it would be foolhardy to do so, such as when he is in serious physical danger from homophobes.

 

Although I understand and can accept the need for some people to be situationally in the closet, in regard to their careers, and out in their personal and social lives, I could never be psychologically comfortable balancing in that way--I refused to take a job in which I couldn't be myself, even though it limited my career options, and I have never regretted it.

[dick_nyc]

The problem with refusing to take jobs, etc, is that with some fields all the jobs are in areas where sexual orientation broadcasting is unrealistic. I selected the kind of work I wanted to do and by the time "sexual liberation" and "gay lifestyle" had become so misapplied that if I had "come out of the closet" the whole thing would have been misunderstood. I agree that to us there is a difference between being in the closet and being discreet, but that is not universally understood. REgardles of how liberated we want to be, we are a part of a universe that will not totally ever accept us in all our permutations. I made the decisions I did based on my best interpretation of what was possible and desirable. Someone else may have made other decisions as is their right.

I am reminded of a talk show I heard on WBAI that was sponsored by the Oscar Wilde Book Store here in NY back in the early 80's. One of the commentators was dissing WASP's as if we were the problem and could not understand gay people at all. He stated that he knew no WASP's who were gay and said that that was the reason he hated white anglo saxon males. I sat there and thought whether to bring up the subject but decided that he just hated WASP's and that a gay WASP would make no difference to him at all. I feel the same way about many of the people who dislike gays. No matter what we do they won't like gays, so the hell with them. But I still have to live in this world and since their knowing about my orientation would cause unnecessary problems and wasn't necessary to discussion any way, why make a statement about it at all.

[dick_nyc]

Sorry the previous posting was so convoluted. I knew what I meant but may not have written it up so someone else would know.

[Huey]

I tend to laugh at those who feel a need to come out, and sorry in advance if that offends people. I never have heard of a straight person making a huge ordeal about being straigh, well unless you're Tom Cruise .

 

My lifestyle is just that mine. I share with people what I want to share with them everyday just like all of you do. The thought of having to make some proclamation (hey I am hired for my personality not spelling) about being gay is absurd.

 

Being yourself is just that. If I feel like I want to let someone at work know I am gay I will do so likewise with friends and family.

[Chuck50]

The sad part is that we live in a world that Gay cannot always be talked about. We can't always be truthful for who we are. "Out" is not something that many can do. Believe it our not there are too many Gay Bashers and those who are not Gay Friendly to us all. I know in this society that it is hard to believe but it is very true. HUGS Chuck

[trilingual]

I've been "out" since I was 16, so that's 40 years ago now! My "coming out" was a process, and one that wasn't always easy. I told my parents when I was 16, which was the hardest single thing I ever had to do in my life. They weren't exactly overjoyed at the news, but they handled it pretty well, and have learned to be accepting over the years, as they've seen that I'm still their son, still love them, and have managed to have a fairly happy, successful life. Only a few other people (all gay) knew while I was in my last years of high school and first years of college. In my junior year I finally realized what a strain it all was. What was the point in pretending to be straight, when I was never going to be straight? So I stopped pretending. I didn't rent billboards to make a formal announcement, but I did tell my closest friends, and the word got around from there. I can only remember losing one friend because of that, and I guess he wasn't worth having as a friend if he couldn't accept me for what I was.

 

Until I was nearly thirty, and moved to San Francisco, I wasn't specifically "out" at work, but I didn't pretend to be straight, either. I just didn't talk about my love life. Unless my colleagues at work were unusually stupid, I assume they figured things out by themselves. Once I moved to San Francisco, I felt able to be open at the workplace, too. That doesn't mean I suddenly started to show up in drag, but it means I was comfortable talking about where I went or what I did in my free time, even if it involved being at gay venues or in gay events, like the parades.

 

None of my worst fears about all the bad things that might happen if people knew I was gay ever materialized. I was amazed at how much of a non-issue it was for people. The greatest benefit of being "out" was the staggering reduction in my stress levels. It wasn't necessary to remember a bunch of different cover stories and try to keep them disentangled. It wasn't necessary to pretend to be something I wasn't, or to put myself into awkward and unpleasant situations (like dredging up a "beard" and spending an uncomfortable evening at a social occasion). Knowing what I do now about the effects of stress on physical and mental health (and particularly on its devastating impact on the immune system) I'm sure that being "out" has contributed positively to my good physical health. I'm still subject to depression (now controlled, thank G-d) but at least it wasn't triggered by the pressure of being in the closet. If I'd had that to deal with, along with everything else, it's very possible I'd have committed suicide long ago. So I think being out of the closet probably saved my life.

 

"Coming out" is a personal choice, and it's a difficult process. Not everyone can do it. But for those still in the closet, I urge you to think about the stress you put yourself through to keep your secret, and to imagine what it would be like not to have to do that anymore. Think about what that stress may be doing to your physical and mental health. And then decide if it really is worth it. You only have one life to live. Isn't it worth it to live it as who you really are, without all the stress and pretense? Only you know the answer will be. But I can tell you from my own experience that I've lost nothing by being "out." I don't need the kind of friend who can't accept me in all of my aspects, and if there were work opportunities I missed because of my openness, I would probably have been miserable in those jobs anyway! Besides, so many other opportunities opened before me once I accepted myself for who I was and stopped pretending to be something else, that I don't feel that I've missed out on anything worthwhile! All in all, it's been a very good life. And in the end, that's what counts. This is offered strictly as food for thought, though. I won't think less of someone because he makes choices different than mine! One of the things I've learned along the way is that you can only live your own life, you can't live someone else's! And here endeth the reading. . .

[Guest anon_2003]

Hey I am 100% straight and want to prostitute for financial reasons only. I posted on some other message board anonymously, and they said that if i do this i will eventually either turn gay or at least tell my loved ones about this prostitution... I hope that I am strong emotionally, but really is it possible to stay completely anonymous or eventually you go nuts and 5 years down the line tell your wife about your lifestyle?

 

Also my parents already accused me of being gay recently for not having a girlfriend for a long time now. And if i were really gay, i think they would see it. I mean i can lie to the police, but my parents look me in the eye, and i suddenly act like a little kid and spill everything i got.

[Guest anon_2003]

Also whenever i get into a fight, my parents know about it even if i didnt get any bruises. They just suspect there is something wrong and interrogate me better than fbi. What is the way to hide all the unusual lifestyles from them?

 

Hell even if i date a girl, i dont want my parents to know i have sex with her, how do i keep my life private!

[Guest fukamarine]

>Hey I am 100% straight and want to prostitute for financial

>reasons only. I posted on some other message board

>anonymously, and they said that if i do this i will eventually

>either turn gay or at least tell my loved ones about this

>prostitution... I hope that I am strong emotionally, but

>really is it possible to stay completely anonymous or

>eventually you go nuts and 5 years down the line tell your

>wife about your lifestyle?

>

>Also my parents already accused me of being gay recently for

>not having a girlfriend for a long time now. And if i were

>really gay, i think they would see it. I mean i can lie to

>the police, but my parents look me in the eye, and i suddenly

>act like a little kid and spill everything i got.

 

You wouldn't happen to be blond by any chance, would you?

 

fukamarine

[Guest bluboy]

There is a difference between coming out and being out. Coming out (except to ones parents and closest friends) is really an absurd thing. However being out IS necessary for psychological health: do not laugh at gay jokes, do not have the girlfriend Maria who lies across the country, and if asked a direct question: are you gay you have to answer truthfully and if you are IN love with someone (not causal dating but in love) then you have to bring them to company Christmas party--not with Bravado but as in here is my boyfriend. I think it is unfair to put the entire burden of normalizing homosexuality on the shoulders of a few brave souls while you cower and bitch about why straighty society will not accept you--the only reason to stay in the closet is if you RISK death..i.e. someone will kill you..we live in the most advanced economy in the world..there are literally millions of jobs. But I have always found that it is discomfort with oneself that keeps people in the closet..not with other people...not everyone will like it BUT not everyone likes anyone..some people do not like fat people, others do not like boring people etc etc. There is a closeted guy in my office who is not coming out b/c of "the job"...but I am out in the same job that he is afraid to come out in.."but you are smarter than me so they will overlook the gay thing for you" is his current reason..he has a livin boyfriend WHO never comes to company events....once you have taken the step you will see how relieving it is. We need more mainstream people out..everytime I watch gay pride marches etc on TV I die of embarassment b/c I know we are out there confirming the stereotypes and I want more mainstreamers to be out in their lives such that the ongoing image is not the gay pride and Act Up..who I feel play a very important role (and at this point the ONLY role) in advancing the gay political agenda. You cannot have it both ways: "I have self -esteem, I am happy to be gay but I cannot tell anyone b/c they will treat me differently" is a load of bull...you are NOT happy to be gay and there is a serious deficiency in self-esteem. blu

[woodlawn]

Given the fact that homophobia is one of the few types of discrimination that remains socially acceptable in America, I can certainly understand why anyone would not be "happy to be gay." Being in a situation in which large numbers of people hate you even though you've never done anything to them seems a very good reason to be unhappy, and if people are unhappy in that situation I think it's ridiculous to say that shows they have some sort of mental problem.

 

Personally, I prefer to keep my sex life private. I've noticed that a lot of people who don't like and don't want to be involved in what is called the "gay scene" feel the same way. Then there are the people who insist that the "gay scene" is what defines being gay and that anyone who isn't okay with that is "self-hating." What bullshit!

[trilingual]

Actually, homophobia is less and less acceptable in America and much of the rest of the civilized world. Discrimination against gay people is illegal now in many places, even in the relatively benighted U.S. Or didn't you see the very recent story about how Leona Helmsley is going to have to fork over $11 million to a former staffer she fired because he's gay? Awarded to him by a jury of his peers? Move to the right place, dude, and discrimination could even become profitable!!! }(

 

I think we're having some semantic problems here between "coming out" and "being out." "Being out" means not concealing your sexuality from others. "Coming out" refers to the DECISION to stop concealing your sexuality from others. People come out in lots of different ways. Of course, some don't even "come out," they're "outed" (i.e., a third party reveals their sexuality to others, or they're discovered in a compromising situation, like being walked in on by their parents while in bed with their boyfriend, or being busted in a t-room somewhere). Some people "come out" with a bang, telling everyone they know and making dramatic changes in their lifestyle. Others do it more gradually, usually beginning by telling close friends or family members. Yet others just decide to stop pretending. However they do it, though, they make a conscious decision to fully accept themselves for who they are and stop pretending to be something they aren't, and then they act on their decision. That's what "coming out" means.

And whatever way someone "comes out," it's a profoundly liberating experience to no longer have to hide and pretend and skulk around, living in constant fear that you're going to be caught or found out!

[FrancoDiSantisxxx]

Omit Needless Words

 

>Actually, homophobia is less and less acceptable in America

>and much of the rest of the civilized world.

 

>I think we're having some semantic problems here between

>"coming out" and "being out." "Being out" means not

>concealing your sexuality from others. "Coming out" refers to

>the DECISION to stop concealing your sexuality from others.

>People come out in lots of different ways.

 

One of the things which struck me in reading so many of these posts is the concept that some have that "gay" is just a sex act and has nothing to do with the person or his personality and being.

 

I can certainly appreciate why one would think or feel this way but the prior post about how stress was lessened and how much more comfortable one was able to feel and be because he no longer had to hide who he was, how he felt, or to lie, certainly says it all without the need for me to elaborate.

[Spida]

I could never let my friends and family know that I was gay. Hell I couldn't even say it out loud a few years ago (even to myself) or post on a board.

 

My family is very religious if I was gay I would be ostrisized and not spoken to by 3/4 of my family. I made a bad decision when I was young and decided to join this faith when I thought it would turn me around and help me out of this! Now if I was to tell them I was gay I would be cast out (not that I practice the religion now) and they could not speak to me. So I know how they would take it.. I have 4 sisters 3 wouldn't speak to me..

 

As for my friends they are ones I have had all my life. I grew up in the innercity very tough neighborhood and most of them still even though they are grown and changed quite a bit have the same attititude. GAY NEVER! I would have to build a whole new life from scratch and that is not "just what I think and don't know how people would react" That is reality. So I don't do it! It is tough psychologically but I think the alternative would be tougher. I am the youngest and I am very close to my family. Even though some may suspect. it is NEVER EVER spoke about. My job would be okay things would change but I would be fine there.. That would be the only saving grace.

 

Spida Stuck playing straight.. I'm not straight I just play a straight person in life.

[phage]

>I particularly hate those people who decided that if I am gay

>then I must come out. I will make that decision for myself

>and I expect that decision to be accepted by all.

 

I basically agree with everything you said up until this last part. Of course you have the right to make the decision for yourself, but I don’t believe you have a right to expect everyone else to accept it. Like any other personal choice we make, some people are going to agree with it and others won’t. I would suggest that you are being just as judgmental of the people you hate because of their belief that everyone needs to come out, as those people are being of you.

 

In my own life, I am completely out to anyone close enough to discuss anything personal. (There are certainly people in my professional life that I know virtually nothing about and they know as little about me.) However, I’m not particularly politically active. I write checks but I don’t join groups or go to meetings or march in parades. Some of my activist friends don’t think this is enough. That’s their prerogative. They accept me but not the decision.

[woodlawn]

>Actually, homophobia is less and less acceptable in America

>and much of the rest of the civilized world. Discrimination

>against gay people is illegal now in many places, even in the

>relatively benighted U.S. Or didn't you see the very recent

>story about how Leona Helmsley is going to have to fork over

>$11 million to a former staffer she fired because he's gay?

>Awarded to him by a jury of his peers? Move to the right

>place, dude, and discrimination could even become

>profitable!!! }(

 

 

But I don't want to move. To me, being gay is about sexual desire and that's it. Other than that, I can find little or no difference between my tastes and opinions and those of the people I grew up with. Why would I want to leave a community in which I have so much in common with the other members to join a community with which I have nothing in common but the small part of my life that's devoted to sex?

 

You shouldn't fool yourself into thinking that because the city councils of many major cities have passed ordinances forbidding sexual preference discrimination, that means everyone in those cities thinks being gay is fine. There are plenty of homophobes in even the most liberal parts of America. In 2000, California voters went for Gore by a large majority even though he spent almost no time campaigning there while Bush spent plenty of time and money there. But the same voters gave an even larger majority to a referendum designed to ban same-sex marriage in the state. The voters often have very different ideas from the politicians who are supposed to represent them, and when they get a chance to show it they often do.

 

>I think we're having some semantic problems here between

>"coming out" and "being out." "Being out" means not

>concealing your sexuality from others. "Coming out" refers to

>the DECISION to stop concealing your sexuality from others.

 

You're leaving out a third term: "privacy." Ever heard of it?

[Rick Munroe]

>My family is very religious if I was gay I would be ostrisized

>and not spoken to by 3/4 of my family.

>...I have 4 sisters 3 wouldn't speak to me..

>...I am the youngest and I am very

>close to my family.

 

These statements are contradictory. How can you say you are "very close" to your family, when you are afraid for them to know who you really are? I'm not saying that you (or anyone) should come out...that's no one's business but your own. But I think that to call those people your "friends" and to think that you have a good relationship with your family is a bit delusional. If they would ostracize you for being who you are, then they don't love you; they merely love the lie you tell them. You accept & respect them and the way they think, but they aren't able to do the same for you. That's "close"?

[Rick Munroe]

>everytime I watch gay pride marches etc on TV I die of

>embarassment b/c I know we are out there confirming the

>stereotypes and I want more mainstreamers to be out in their

>lives such that the ongoing image is not the gay pride and Act

>Up...

 

That's kind of sad that you "die of embarrassment" from seeing out gay people on TV. As for "mainstreamers"...well, maybe if you took your hands away from your embarrassed eyes, you'd see cops, firefighters, parents, lawyers, teachers, doctors, and many other professionals marching alongside the go-go boys and dykes-on-bikes. The Pride parades are all about showing our diversity. Maybe you're just paying too much attention to the Rentboy float.

[Flower]

>I could never let my friends and family know that I was gay.

>Hell I couldn't even say it out loud a few years ago (even to

>myself) or post on a board.

 

Spida, that's how we all feel when we've been in the closet too long. I was "Stuck playing straight.." for way too many years.

 

I had a wife and grown children whom I came out to last year and have come out slowly to a few close friends and more family. I never thought any of it would be possible nor that they would accept me once they knew, but I was wrong for the most part. One of my closest straight friends sorta backed away for a short while, but now we are as close as ever.

 

I have chosen to rebuild my life as a gay man and am slowly working toward that, including moving to a more gay friendly area, possibly living and working in a gay neighborhood--but that is a ways away, but what I am shooting for.

 

I no longer fear being "outed" but just find it more convenient in my present circumstances not to mention my sexuality until I resolve some business matters and other loose ends.

 

Coming out to family and a few close friends turned out to be remarkably easy. My oldest son is a religious fundalmentalist (not sure how that happened based on my life time abhorance of the RR LOL and he's accepted me along with the rest of the family, with open arms and words of encouragement.

 

I'm a long time believer of the saying "a coward dies many deaths; a brave man but one." I just was afraid to apply it to myself re: my sexuality until recently. Take heart, my friend--you're not alone.

[Guest fukamarine]

>My family is very religious if I was gay I would be ostrisized

>and not spoken to by 3/4 of my family.

 

Well...... that could be the good news

 

>I made a bad decision

>when I was young and decided to join this faith when I thought

>it would turn me around and help me out of this! Now if I was

>to tell them I was gay I would be cast out (not that I

>practice the religion now) and they could not speak to me.

 

And that would be more good news.

 

>I would have to build a

>whole new life from scratch and that is not "just what I think

>and don't know how people would react" That is reality. So I

>don't do it! It is tough psychologically but I think the

>alternative would be tougher.

 

Well it might be tougher for a while, but if you are a decent guy you would probably establish yourself much easier and quicker than you ever imagined.

 

>My job would be okay things would change

>but I would be fine there.. That would be the only saving

>grace.

 

There you go - that part would be easy and it's probably a 1/3 of your life, minimum!

 

>Spida Stuck playing straight.. I'm not straight I just play a

>straight person in life.

 

What a terrible life sentence to give to anyone. I think you must enjoy makeing excuses rather than taking action to make it better. Give it carefull consideration - trust me - it's not nearly as impossible as it seems to you at this moment.

 

fukamarine

[+ deej]

>That's kind of sad that you "die of embarrassment" from seeing

>out gay people on TV. As for "mainstreamers"...well, maybe if

>you took your hands away from your embarrassed eyes, you'd see

>cops, firefighters, parents, lawyers, teachers, doctors, and

>many other professionals marching alongside the go-go boys and

>dykes-on-bikes. The Pride parades are all about showing our

>diversity. Maybe you're just paying too much attention to the

>Rentboy float.

 

Brava!

 

Pride events *can* get a little over the top, but then again that's their purpose. The go-go boys and nudity gets the attention of the media because it's "sensational" (and it usually is) but the REAL importance of those events are the veterans' groups, the community groups, the parents groups, etc.

 

THOSE are the stars, but you'll never see them on the news.

 

The last gay pride parade I attended was in Chicago. Everyone whooped and hollered for the go-go boys and nudity, and then they were over it. But EVERYONE on both sides of the street stood to cheer the ex-military contingent (several of them in tears at the welcome), the PFLAG groups, and the simple community service groups.

 

Probably the biggest ovation went to the Chicago Gay and Lesbian Police Association float. No skin involved.

 

Now THAT is something to be proud of. We have our fun, sure, but we have our priorities in the right place. (And we're not above enjoying a little skin.)

[Guest Merlin]

After you have lived in the closet and lived two lives, in effect, it become your nature. It is who I am. It feels comfortable to me and I would not like the change of coming out. If I came out and lived an openly gay life, it would not be me.