Married guys cheating on their wives with gay escorts

[leigh.bess.toad]

Again, Joseph, I love you dearly and have nothing but respect for you and all the good works you do, but I disagree. Yes, others have said worse things to each other -- individual to individual. But to come on here and denigrate half of the client members of this forum and by extension every escort by referring to them as the scum of the earth is at a whole different level than a personal, individual attack. When most of these men, many of whom I know struggle with their sexuality and how that affects them and their own social situation, did nothing at all to warrant such an attack (which was simply designed to elicit emotional pain) a different level of response was dictated. Let's be honest here, TBL started the thread with the sole purpose of inflicting pain on members of this forum, simply because he is hurting because he has to be working with a complete quack of a therapist who has done nothing in two years to move him past the Anger step of the grieving process. The fact that I am in pain does not give me the right to intentionally attempt to inflict pain on innocent third parties.

 

And that is why I think a different level of response from the admin was was wise decision. Hopefully it will be a brief timeout as opposed to some others we have had because we realize that there are extenuating circumstances -- what caused TBL's pain in the first place. And I hope that this will give him the impetus to find a far better qualified therapist than the loser he has now -- your standard issue village idiot couldn't do much worse. The right therapist can make all the difference in the world. Because not only does he need to reach some level of acceptance of what happend to exist in a community of members here, he is going to need to get there if he is ever going to learn to trust and love again. Otherwise for a man who is only 36 years old he will be doomed to spend the rest of his life unable to open his heart and truly love unwaveringly again. And that would be the real tragedy of the entire situation.

[Guest TBinCHI]

I am very interested in the issue about judging others, their actions and/or attitudes that has been brought up here. Don't we, as a matter of our daily lives, constantly make judgements about others? Doesn't that help us decide who we want to do business with, associate with as friends, date, marry, etc? Doesn't it allow us to live a certain level of moral standards in our lives as to what we find acceptable? Those that we judge may or may not directly impact our lives as well. It seems to me that we make judgements on the actions of murderers and bigots. We use our own moral compass to make those judgements and certainly those values may differ from individual to individual but it does not diminish the fact that they exist and are useful. Beyond the way in which TBL went about it, was his judgement any more or less valid than what others may have in regards to their own belief system? Or was it that he publicly stated it?

 

I see what you are saying, jgoo, and you make valid points. There definitely are levels of judgment out there and, as you point out, we "judge" others to determine who we want to date, associate with, and do business with. But, I doubt that we judge those that we don't want to date, associate with, or do business with to be the scum of the earth in a categorical way. Even with murder there are varying levels of "judgement" that we attach which is why there are different criminal categories for murder charges. And even with bigots, I have found that I can disagree with their way of thinking, believe them to be close-minded and unfair, not want to associate with them, and yet refrain from categorizing all bigots as the scum of the earth. There is too much that we don't know about people's circumstances to justify painting them with a broad brush. Even with TBL, I didn't like or agree with what he was saying here, believe that he got an appropriate consequence to his postings, yet I won't judge him as a bad person because there is obviously more to his story.

[leigh.bess.toad]

Beyond the way in which TBL went about it, was his judgement any more or less valid than what others may have in regards to their own belief system? Or was it that he publicly stated it?

 

Jgoo -- There is one major difference between the judgment we all make in everyday life you talk about and the judgment TBL reached. Who we decide to do business with, have as friends etc. is all based on personal, individual situations. However, TBL made his judgment about an entire class and group of people. All married men who hire escorts are the scum of the earth. That is much the same as all gays are child molesters and all blonds are dumb and all ... (fill in the blank with your typical stereotype). Of course it's nonsense. But again, it's his right to make such faulty and erroneous conclusions. But when he took this stereotype and then intentionally tried to inflict emotional pain on half of the forum members, many of who already struggle with the issue of their sexuality and the role it plays in their life, that he crossed that Bridge Too Far. And that was the issue.

[jgoo]

Jgoo -- There is one major difference between the judgment we all make in everyday life you talk about and the judgment TBL reached. Who we decide to do business with, have as friends etc. is all based on personal, individual situations. However, TBL made his judgment about an entire class and group of people. All married men who hire escorts are the scum of the earth. That is much the same as all gays are child molesters and all blonds are dumb and all ... (fill in the blank with your typical stereotype). Of course it's nonsense. But again, it's his right to make such faulty and erroneous conclusions. But when he took this stereotype and then intentionally tried to inflict emotional pain on half of the forum members, many of who already struggle with the issue of their sexuality and the role it plays in their life, that he crossed that Bridge Too Far. And that was the issue.

 

Lee, There are a wide range of things that judgements are made on. How we frame the issue can dramatically influence our views. There may in fact be judgements about an entire class or group of people that many would find very appropriate. I tend to believe that the vast majority of people would say all child molesters are "scum" or worse. If I recall correctly, you have made your position on pedophiles very clear. While framing it as "all married men who hire escorts are the scum of the earth" provides a perspective that I also find as nonsensical, I can see where there are those who would say that cheating is morally wrong being somewhat reasonable based on their own belief system. While I may not agree with such broad brush judgement, there are certainly some issues that people tend to do that with and while it may be simplistic (black and white) it can have some justification.

[doitb4ugo]

I only want to reply here because I am so proud of myself for letting this go....only a few months ago I would have been upset beyond reason at this thread....I am happy to have adjusted myself to where I am now and realizing that everyone has opinions and some people like to rub their's into other faces to get a kick...sad but true. Each person has to live their own life the best they can....Everyone will always be subject to someone's hate or scorn..that is the way of being human...but we don't need to let it upset us....if we put it into perspective and decide to ignore ignorance when it stares us down....

 

I am who I am and that's all that I am....and I'm not popeye the sailor man.....Class is knowing when where and how to get a message across...and many people on this forum are very classy. IMHO.

[NYTomcat]

Lee, There are a wide range of things that judgements are made on. How we frame the issue can dramatically influence our views. There may in fact be judgements about an entire class or group of people that many would find very appropriate. I tend to believe that the vast majority of people would say all child molesters are "scum" or worse. If I recall correctly, you have made your position on pedophiles very clear. While framing it as "all married men who hire escorts are the scum of the earth" provides a perspective that I also find as nonsensical, I can see where there are those who would say that cheating is morally wrong being somewhat reasonable based on their own belief system. While I may not agree with such broad brush judgement, there are certainly some issues that people tend to do that with and while it may be simplistic (black and white) it can have some justification.

 

I don't disagree he has a right to have his opinion and express it. There are numerous sites he can debate those issues. But by coming to a site populated heavily by married men hiring escorts who already berate themselves in many instances privately he forfeits that free speech. His remarks here rise in my mind to the level of yelling fire in a crowded theater. Done for no reason than to cause pain and disruption. While I do judge child molesters and would privately categorize them as less than human in my eyes. I would not go on a site for recovering pedaphiles and challenge them screaming they are scum. That's only creating dischord with no purpose.

 

And while we were discussing rationally I did try to show him another side and have a positive debate. His opinion was respected and even offered to respectfully agree to disagree. Instead tbl took it caustic and in a vein to merely inflict harm. That is when it stepped over the line of civil discourse

[Epigonos]

I learned a long time ago a very basic fact about this site. This is Daddy’s playpen and who is allowed to play in it and who is not allowed to play in it is his decision and his decision alone. Additionally he and he alone decides if and when to close down a thread. Daddy makes the rules and Daddy enforces the rules. I have NOT always agreed with his decision but if I want to play here I damn well better understand and accept his ground rules.

[leigh.bess.toad]

Lee, There are a wide range of things that judgements are made on. How we frame the issue can dramatically influence our views. There may in fact be judgements about an entire class or group of people that many would find very appropriate. I tend to believe that the vast majority of people would say all child molesters are "scum" or worse. If I recall correctly, you have made your position on pedophiles very clear. While framing it as "all married men who hire escorts are the scum of the earth" provides a perspective that I also find as nonsensical, I can see where there are those who would say that cheating is morally wrong being somewhat reasonable based on their own belief system. While I may not agree with such broad brush judgement, there are certainly some issues that people tend to do that with and while it may be simplistic (black and white) it can have some justification.

 

Jgoo -- the difference though is that pedophilia, when acted upon, is a crime -- and causes immediate and long-term damage to the victim. And although we can certainly acknowledge that some view the hiring of escorts a petty crime as well, just the act itself does not constitute any criminal activity whatsoever. Yes, my position on pedophilia is clear. NAMBLA is a huge stain on the gay community and we must at all turns oppose them and fight them with everything we can. But I think Tomcat nailed it on the head: coming here saying that was the equivalent of yelling fire in a crowded theater. His purpose was clear to me: to infllict a pain on others simply because he was hurting.

 

Life is rarely simple. It is almost never black and white. Binary decisions work well for computers Not so with people. And while something may be morally wrong to someone, that doesn't make all those people who choose a different path the scum of the earth. What tbl did i would be akin to a Christian Scientist going onto a board for cancer survivors and calling them the scum of the earth for seeking treatment and the doctors are their enablers.

 

I certainly don't consider tbl a bad person even though we disagree. I recognize that he is a man in horrific internal pain that has never been resolved. I hope with all my heart he can find the healing and peace to move on with his life. I believe my feelings toward him are a lot kinder than he has toward many of my friends here. But the intentional infliction of emotional pain on a group of people is unacceptable in my mind. I knew when I saw the thread who among my friends might need support and I reached out to them immediately. These are good men who do love their family and kids but are in an untenable position. And to intentionally cause these good men more distress than they already feel was simply wrong, at least to me.

[raulgmanzo]

I don't think he should have been suspended people have said far worse to each other on here without any type of time out.

 

Don't worry about his suspension, he has other logins he can use here.

[jgoo]

Jgoo -- the difference though is that pedophilia, when acted upon, is a crime -- and causes immediate and long-term damage to the victim. And although we can certainly acknowledge that some view the hiring of escorts a petty crime as well, just the act itself does not constitute any criminal activity whatsoever. Yes, my position on pedophilia is clear. NAMBLA is a huge stain on the gay community and we must at all turns oppose them and fight them with everything we can. But I think Tomcat nailed it on the head: coming here saying that was the equivalent of yelling fire in a crowded theater. His purpose was clear to me: to infllict a pain on others simply because he was hurting.

 

I certainly don't consider tbl a bad person even though we disagree. I recognize that he is a man in horrific internal pain that has never been resolved. I hope with all my heart he can find the healing and peace to move on with his life. I believe my feelings toward him are a lot kinder than he has toward many of my friends here. But the intentional infliction of emotional pain on a group of people is unacceptable in my mind. I knew when I saw the thread who among my friends might need support and I reached out to them immediately. These are good men who do love their family and kids but are in an untenable position. And to intentionally cause these good men more distress than they already feel was simply wrong, at least to me.

 

Lee, There are clearly legal distinctions but that is not what we are talking about...we are addressing judgements based on moral and/or ethical standards that individuals may hold for groups or entire classes. It is reasonable and appropriate for individuals to make these judgements on pedophiles, cheating and other attitudes or actions that are morally based (even if some are illegal and others are not). We can come up with other groups (such as the KKK) that most would judge harshly but being a member of the group is not illegal.

 

It may be clear to you what was in his mind and heart when he started the thread. If it was, as you say to inflict pain on others, then that is something I would denounce. Certainly I don't support his characterization of those that cheat as scum of the earth. However I don't see a direct analogy to yelling fire in a crowded theater, where everyone is unwillingly subjected to the impact of the panic that would result but in this case no one is being forced to read any of the posts and the consequences are not as foreseeable (and if there is a suggestion that it could be as serious then there are more critical matters to be addressed).

 

I do not want to seem insensitive to those who may have a negative reaction to what is said on the forum but there should be an understanding that at times some things will be written that may make us uncomfortable or even worse. We can protect others here to some extent but in reality any attempt to sweep things under the rug will only result in a more difficult situation than by allowing the dirt to see the light of day.

[mansniffing]

Hamlet . . . There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,

Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

----Act 1, scene 5, 159–167

[MiamiLooker]

An acquaitance of mine contracted HIV from her cheating husband. Though she was given the house, the car, etc, in the divorce, it did her little good since she was dead within a year.

[josephga]

One point I do disagree with. I dont think escorts are enablers or any other 3rd party for the matter. No one is responsible for keeping someones partner faithful. A 3rd party has no obligation to anyone. 3rd party might not know the person isn't available. My ex that cheated on me is who I blame. not who every he happen to have an affair with. they had no obligation to me.

[josephga]

An acquaitance of mine contracted HIV from her cheating husband. Though she was given the house, the car, etc, in the divorce, it did her little good since she was dead within a year.

 

there was a lady on a talk show months ago. her husband gave her hiv too. She sued and was awarded millions however he filled bankruptys and she never saw a dime

[NYTomcat]

What I said earlier there is a discussion to be had. I don't disagree at all. However. You are going about it a better way. Sure there are issues that every married cheater must contend with. But you must not assume everyone works the same. For example I never had sex with my spouse once i decided to have extramarital activity. Thus there is and was no way to give my spouse any STD. I am not alone. Many of the married men here have no sexual relationship with their spouse. Others obviously this is not the case but no one can assume what the situation is. So any blanket statement are the problem. Many spouses know... turn a blind eye because they are happy with the relationship. It really isn't for anyone to judge other than the members of the relationship. If its wrong its between the spouse and God to judge in my opinion

[doitb4ugo]

Because I don't believe in god or a human soul....the question for me could never be a moralistic one....For me it is a question of interpersonal significance. I am not proud of cheating on my wife...but the pain of telling her and separating at this time in our lives is far greater than the act of cheating....

Why don;t I stop cheating is probably the most legitimate question I live with...After repressing my sexuality for 40 years of living a faithful straight life, I needed to explore this more than anything I ever was tempted by....Happy No! but unable to stop....

[ChiTown]

Bravo, Tom!

 

What I said earlier there is a discussion to be had. I don't disagree at all. However. You are going about it a better way. Sure there are issues that every married cheater must contend with. But you must not assume everyone works the same. For example I never had sex with my spouse once i decided to have extramarital activity. Thus there is and was no way to give my spouse any STD. I am not alone. Many of the married men here have no sexual relationship with their spouse. Others obviously this is not the case but no one can assume what the situation is. So any blanket statement are the problem. Many spouses know... turn a blind eye because they are happy with the relationship. It really isn't for anyone to judge other than the members of the relationship. If its wrong its between the spouse and God to judge in my opinion

 

Bravo, Tom! Can you hear me applauding you from here to NY? . . . Thanks!

[Rick Munroe]

there was a lady on a talk show months ago.

 

I think there are ladies on talk shows every day.

[+ deej]

I think there are ladies on talk shows every day.

 

There are women on talk shows every day. Ladies? Not so much.

[Rick Munroe]

Ladies? Not so much.

 

Tooshay. Or touché!

[Guest greatness]

Oh my you should not say that in front of southern ladies at a tea party. They would not like it.

 

There are women on talk shows every day. Ladies? Not so much.

[leigh.bess.toad]

Many of the married men here have no sexual relationship with their spouse.

 

Sometimes for many years prior to beginning to see male escorts.

[josephga]

Sometimes for many years prior to beginning to see male escorts.

 

some gay men with their partners too. I use to have this massage client, he and his partner had been together for 20 years and hadn't had sex in the last 5.

[+ deej]

Oh my you should not say that in front of southern ladies at a tea party. They would not like it.

 

Quite the contrary! Many a fine southern lady would roundly agree (and cluck gleefully).

[nate_sf]

Anybody see Bloomburg Businessweek this week? The cover article is on Ashley Madison, the hookup site for heterosexual couples wanting to have extramarital affairs. The discussion has some similarities to the one here except it's the heterosexual version. Perhaps not surprisingly, the vast majority of Ashley Madison members are male. The reasons the guys (and gals) in the article provide for cheating are similar to those that have been discussed here, particularly wanting to maintain a relationship despite the sexual aspect having expired.

 

Here's the web version:

 

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/11_08/b4216060281516.htm