Discrimination In The Gay Community........Are You Predjudice??

[Godiva]

One of my best friends, who happens to be African American and gay, dances at Gay and Straight clubs in LA. He said that when he follows a white dancer in most cases 1/2 the crowd leaves the room or goes to the bar. (FYI he looks awesome) He said this usually occurs when it is those dancers of darker complextion. I was shocked as I have not frequented the dance clubs. He informed me that this practice goes on at the Gaeity in NY too. I the remembered a post about that some time ago here on the message board.

 

It goes even further that that...

 

Is discrimination in the Gay community more prevalent than it is in Hetero America? Are we less tolerant of someone because of his race, weight, skin color, religion, looks, height, old/young etc...

 

Does ones looks really rate higher to some of you then, should I say, the content of ones character when chosing a friend or mate.

 

If someone is not your type (someone you wouldn't want to fuck) does that mean they have no chance of being your friend?

 

It seems to me that in a community that is discriminated against daily, that we have the strenght to then turn around and further subdivide an already small pool of men to chose from based on these predjudices.

 

I am thankful that as I am slowly commin out...I haven't adopted these ugly principles and my circle of friends include many of the characteristics that some in the community would use to divide. I am sure that having all these experiences in my short life is the reason why I have had the sucess in my business world.

 

With this site , most of us come here with a clean slate and are judge not by all of those predjudices..but by our character and intelligence.

 

As we approach the New Year with 9/11 in mind..I encourage us all to go out and make a friend with someone you wouldn't normally be caught dead with (for fear some would find out)...whether its black/white, fat/muscular, tall/short, goodlookin/average, Hiv-/Hiv+ old /young.. More of these types of relationships would definately strenghten our platform for social acceptance by inclusions rather than exclusions..

 

I hope this makes sense

These are my thoughts and we can agree to disagree

 

What do you think???

 

G

 

 

...and I hear them sayin, you'll never change things, and no matter what you do its still the same thing..But its not the world that I am changing..I do this so this world will know that it will not change me.. Garth Brooks

[Will]

RE: Discrimination In The Gay Community.

 

Great topic, Godiva! There have been a number of threads touching on this very subject. You are right that prejudice and discrimination are alive and well among gay men. While that's a sad fact, some of it is understandable. After all, racism isn't a matter of sexual orientation, nor is religious bigotry, nor snobbery. Plain old bloody-mindedness does not discriminate: it's happy to take root in every heart.

 

It sounds as though your friend in L.A. is the target of racist attitudes. And while it's no comfort to point this out, you say that he notices the discrimination regardless of whether the club is straight or gay. That speaks to the forms of bigotry I mentioned in the first paragraph.

 

There are two other forms of bigotry that are, I think, unique among gay men. They are also directed, almost exclusively, at other gay men, and they are worth highlighting even if doing so won't eliminate them.

 

The first is internalized homophobia, something we write and read about on this site over and over. Many gay men have residual anger, fear, and resentment directed at all gay men -- including themselves -- and to a certain degree that may be something that many of us have to learn to manage as a kind of resident moral weakness. By that, I mean that we may have to recognize that simply not wanting to be homophobic isn't enough. Homophobia, after all, is something that is learned; and if you're a good student and learn it early in life, it becomes a kind of language that is very difficult to shake off. Therefore, one must be vigilant against the siren-call of self-hatred, particularly when it gets directed outwards at other gay men. Some regular posters on this site might do well to hold up a mirror to their souls in this regard.

 

The second form of gay bigotry derives from the narcissistic assumption that the ultimate worth of another man is determined by his sexual desireability. The consequences are all too obvious. On the one hand is the mindless idolization of certain body types and mannerisms, and the senseless capitulation to the stupid notion that "getting" the "perfect" man is the key to happiness.

 

On the other hand is the truly repugnant rejection of those who fall outside the group of potential sex partners: the old, the fat, the ugly, the nelly, the whatever-it-is-that-turns-you-off. "No fats or fems" is the way it's usually signalled in the personals ads.

 

This second category is all the more disgusting because it is an almost irresistable -- to me, anyhow -- temptation provided by every single gay publication, every porn movie, every escort ad. It constantly tells me that I am No One at all if I am not "hot." That's something, I think, that we can change, and over the long haul it may happen.

 

To lighten up a bit, much the same sorts of things are true in singles bars for straight people, where the only real purpose is hooking up. The problem with gay life is that there are so few venues for other kinds of social interaction.

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

RE: Discrimination In The Gay Community..

 

>One of my best friends, who happens to be African American

>and gay, dances at Gay and Straight clubs in LA. He said

>that when he follows a white dancer in most cases 1/2 the

>crowd leaves the room or goes to the bar. (FYI he looks

>awesome) He said this usually occurs when it is those

>dancers of darker complextion. I was shocked as I have not

>frequented the dance clubs. He informed me that this

>practice goes on at the Gaeity in NY too. I the remembered a

>post about that some time ago here on the message board.

>

 

Sad but true... I have observed it myself. It is an unfortunate circumstance for them and their earning potential... but I'm happy to have reduced competition for their attention. :-)

 

>Is discrimination in the Gay community more prevalent than

>it is in Hetero America? Are we less tolerant of someone

>because of his race, weight, skin color, religion, looks,

>height, old/young etc...

>

I have to leave this weighty discussion to the heavy hitters on the board...

 

>Does ones looks really rate higher to some of you then,

>should I say, the content of ones character when chosing a

>friend or mate.

>

Absolutely not... however, in a thread in the distant past this was discussed at length, It was my view that, in general, when sizing up someone who is a complete unknown the first thing one does is assess the physical characteristics to determine whether to engage in the next level of interaction. Sometimes this is circumvented by circumstances and you get to know someone regardless of your initial assessment or before you have a chance to 'make an assessment'. If we could get past this facet of human nature it would open up many more doors for us...

 

>If someone is not your type (someone you wouldn't want to

>fuck) does that mean they have no chance of being your

>friend?

 

No... most of my friends fall into that category.

[vers7]

RE: Discrimination In The Gay Community.

 

If the majority of out, gay males are white, you probably would expect them to represent the same traits -- for better or worse -- of straight white males of the same age group. That being said, one would expect a minority to be more sympathetic of other minorities and would try to supress the scapegoating desire of finding someone to whom they can feel superior. This dichotomy certainly doesn't just exist in the gay community. (E.g., on the news, it is not uncommon to still hear anti-semitic expressions from portions of the African-American community.)

With respect to the gay community, I think it's a little more complicated. I've long noticed the absence of African-Americans in main-stream gay porn. This is not accidental and it is not just subconscious racism. I could be wrong, but I believe that Falcon still uses overt, racist criteria in their casting even though they have recently cast some african-american actors. They would probably state the same as a prior thread on a similar topic and that is: "While we are not racist, we realize that many white men do not find black men sexually attractive -- it's a matter of sexual preference, not racism." I don't buy this argument. I realize many of us are attracted and not attracted to certain types. However, I suspect that that is probably as a result of our socialization -- including racial socialization. But where sexual attraction is added to the equation of racial interaction, things do get complicated.

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

RE: Discrimination In The Gay Community.

 

>..... Therefore, one must be

>vigilant against the siren-call of self-hatred, particularly

>when it gets directed outwards at other gay men. Some

>regular posters on this site might do well to hold up a

>mirror to their souls in this regard.

>

 

Right on!!!!

 

Having lived almost my whole life in the straight world as a straight man with 'wife, children,... the full catastrophe' (not to make light of my family but sometimes Nikos Kazantzakis just pops out...) I finally confronted myself, obliquely at first, then sometime after divorce and after an eye opening experience, head on. I accepted who I was and how I must live. Once I achieved total self acceptance, any discomfort or uneasiness about immersing myself in the gay world or interacting with 'gay individuals of any stripe -- butch, nellie... -- totally dissolved. I was free of fear about family, employer and colleagues knowing -- it was no longer my problem. I know others have legitmate concerns about family and work which I don't dismiss.

 

The real issue for each of us, as I see it, is where we fit in the spectrum from self-acceptance to self-hatred. It tempers our view of ourselves which is reflected in our view of others and the community, whatever that is.

[Guest TruthTeller]

RE: Discrimination In The Gay Community

 

>One of my best friends, who happens to be African American

>and gay, dances at Gay and Straight clubs in LA. He said

>that when he follows a white dancer in most cases 1/2 the

>crowd leaves the room or goes to the bar. (FYI he looks

>awesome)

 

To call this "discrimination" is to completely abuse and cheapen that word. People watching dancers at these clubs are there to watch guys they find arousing. If you are sexually attracted only to a certain race - and I would venture to say that, as a very general proposition, and for a variety of reasons, whites tend to be more attracted to whites, and blacks to blacks - that hardly makes you a bigot.

 

Most people at the Gaiety and similar places pay attention when a dancer is dancing whom they think is hot. They don't pay attention when the dancer isn't hot. The fact that people leave the room when a black dancer is on means nothing more than the fact that they're not SEXUALLY attracted to the dancer. To suggest some sort of malevolence or bigotry from that is inconceivable.

[Guest NakedTony]

RE: Discrimination In The Gay Community

 

Wow, I didn't think I'd be agreeing with T2 but he has a valid point. Going to the rest room, getting a drink, or having a smoke during the performance of a dancer you do not find appealing is not discrimination.

 

However, if the dancer was part of a formal dance program (like the ballet), I think it would be in poor taste to get up and walk out. But, in a bar or strip-joint setting, I don't think it's wrong.

 

I haven't seen a lot of black/white discrimination in the gay community. But I have noticed significant intolerance towards Asians, Native Americans, and those (without regard to race) who are over 55 years old or are overweight.

 

I think there is discrimination in the gay community but I felt Godiva's example may not have been the best representation of the problem.

[+ Charlie]

RE: Discrimination In The Gay Community........?

 

Whether or not I am attracted to people as friends has nothing to do with whether or not I am attracted to them sexually. I don't have any conscious control over what turns me on sexually, so it doesn't bother me that I am not interested in certain body types, ethnicities, etc., and I am not about to start responding sexually to men based on some notion of political correctness. I also don't choose my friends because they are politically correct, but on the quality of their characters, and that knows no limitations of race, religion, age, cock size, effeminacy, etc.

[Guest Viewmaster]

RE: Discrimination In The Gay Community.

 

>The problem with gay life is that

>there are so few venues for other kinds of social

>interaction.

 

There are Gay Ski Clubs, Gay Bowling Groups, Gay Running Clubs, Gay Cruises, Gay Relgious Groups, and Gay just about anything one can imagaine. I must not be understanding what you mean --what type of venues do you mean?

[Guest Viewmaster]

RE: Discrimination In The Gay Community

 

I'd have to agree with you on this, as I don't think sexual attraction is generally connected to racist attitudes. I'm not turned on by dogs, but does that mean I hate animals? Extreme, I know, but I think the point hasd the same vaildity.

[+ deej]

RE: Discrimination In The Gay Community.

 

<<I've long noticed the absence of African-Americans in main-stream gay porn. This is not accidental and it is not just subconscious racism. I could be wrong, but I believe that Falcon still uses overt, racist criteria in their casting even though they have recently cast some african-american actors. They would probably state the same as a prior thread on a similar topic and that is: "While we are not racist, we realize that many white men do not find black men sexually attractive -- it's a matter of sexual preference, not racism." I don't buy this argument.>>

 

Porn isn't necessarily a good mirror of all of gay society. (I say that with tongue FIRMLY in cheek.)

 

There is some racism in porn, sure. But there's also a profit motive.

 

Mixed-race porn simply doesn't sell as well. <shrug> (And there are still some parts of the country where it can't be sold, or so I'm told.) It's a niche market. One of the biggest films in that niche recently was CAESAR'S HARD HAT GANG BANG, with big muscle-bound (white) Caesar getting fucked by a roomful of ethnic performers. It made Caesar a star. It won tons of awards. But I'm told sales were lukewarm.

 

But, yes, there is racism. One of my best friends has done films for Chi Chi LaRue and Jeff Stryker, so you know he's no slouch. He's Puerto Rican. He approached a producer of Latino movies about being in them and was turned down because he "looks too white". It cuts all ways.

[ted]

RE: Discrimination In The Gay Community........?

 

I do not often agree with T2, but in this case I do. I don't think its discrimination if you aren't turned on by someone. I'm not at the Gaiety or a strip club, ogling the dancer's, to find my soulmate or even a lasting friendship. I'm more interested in those that turn me on, and we've certainly been conditioned to respond to the muscular wasp as gay men. That being said, I do find Andre at the Gaiety appealing (and not just because of that monster of his). There are others that fit my usual physical type, that just don't do it for me. Don't know why? I therefore tend to hit the green room or the facilities when they are performing However, I do think it is insensitive to get up and leave while a dancer is on stage performing; I try and leave before they take the stage or between their numbers.

[Losgatan]

The Value of Experience

 

It’s amazing to me how experience can help change one’s attitudes about men from other ethnic and racial backgrounds.

 

Many years ago, while living in Philadelphia, I and my BF joined a symphonic chorus called “Singing City” which still regularly performs with the Philadelphia Orchestra. The founder of the group, Elaine Brown, believed music to be one of the most powerful ways to form bridges between people of different backgrounds. After thousands of hours of rehearsals and hundreds of performances together, I found that I had almost totally discarded the racial prejudices that I had been so carefully taught as a child.

 

Yet, I still didn’t feel much sexual attraction to men of different races.

 

That began to change with several trips to Mexico and Thailand. I fell madly in love with a young man from Acapulco and conducted a long-term relationship that lasted several years. Later, the trips to Thailand opened my eyes to the beauty of Asian men and led me into a very close relationship with a young Korean here in Northern California.

 

My sexual experiences with African-Americans have been limited to a few hot sessions in San Francisco’s Nob Hill Theater. But even that was enough to open my eyes to yet another form of masculine beauty.

 

All of this has been truly liberating for me and I feel very grateful for the experiences that led me to this point.

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

RE: Discrimination In The Gay Community

 

>To call this "discrimination" is to completely abuse and

>cheapen that word.

 

Well, I'm gonna have to disagree here. If we are talking about two individuals I might agree... but we are not. It is definitely discrimination... why I think it is "discrimination" is pursued below.

 

>People watching dancers at these clubs

>are there to watch guys they find arousing.

 

Granted.

 

If you are

>sexually attracted only to a certain race - and I would

>venture to say that, as a very general proposition, and for

>a variety of reasons, whites tend to be more attracted to

>whites, and blacks to blacks - that hardly makes you a

>bigot.

 

Possibly, but it does make one biased, definitely -- and bias on account of race, plain and simple -- that is racial discrimination. It may not be discrimination based on bigotry associated with hateful or spiteful principles -- not all racial discrimination is or has been, although there has been a decades long campaign to paint it in that light. This is not to justify discrimination because all forms have insidious effects upon the target group -- including the one under discussion.

 

As for the sexual preference argument you make... I agree sexual attraction transcends conscious deliberate choice. I also strongly believe that sexual attraction is 90% a head game, dependent on our mindset, i.e. attitudes and tastes acquired over a lifetime, and thus learned, most likely in the childhood and early teen years. With different races come different physical characteristics, not universally, but generally. Most of us find certain physical characteristics attractive and others less so. So as you point out we may favor generally those associated with one race over another. But there is some distribution of characteristic within any race thus we are likely to find a significant number of indivudals within any race with attractive characteristics. We all have biases and it affects our preferences but when our preferences always follow the same pattern despite the distribution in physical characteristics within a race then something more than simple sexual preference probably is going on.

>

>Most people at the Gaiety and similar places pay attention

>when a dancer is dancing whom they think is hot. They don't

>pay attention when the dancer isn't hot. The fact that

>people leave the room when a black dancer is on means

>nothing more than the fact that they're not SEXUALLY

>attracted to the dancer.

 

Again, I buy this for a given pair of individuals -- audience member and dancer. But when the same people leave time and again when different black dancers with differing physical characteristics are on it does make one wonder, at the least. (How do I know this to be the fact? I don't really know but it is my impression from limited observations and it is the basis for my discussion.)

 

To suggest some sort of

>malevolence or bigotry from that is inconceivable.

 

I don't think it inconceivable; bias is certainly there and very possibly more.

 

JMO FWIW

[Will]

RE: Discrimination In The Gay Community.

 

You're absolutely right. My mind was stuck on the image of the singles bar. Being able to participate in those other kinds of social life is a great advantage for people who live in cities where they exist. My slip-of-the-mind is another indication of how pervasive the bar image is, even in the mind of someone like me who never goes to them. Thanks for the reality check.

[Godiva]

RE: The Value of Experience

 

Oh I'm sorry..It must then be sheer coincedence that everytime some non-white dancer performs and the same routine happens..drinks, bathroom break..smoking..till the next dancer comes on and all of a sudden we are suddenly interested again...don't be afraid of calling it what it is. It may be an over used statement in some areas but certainly not here...And unless you are that dancer and you are performing at gay clubs and you witness the same senario over and over again then we really don't understand why he would come to a conclusion like that..

 

 

 

The dialog here is awesome...keep posting your thoughts

 

G

[marc anthony]

RE: Discrimination In The Gay Community.....

 

Very interesting topic... and I have enjoyed the discussion. Overall, I think the use of the word discrimination in this example is too harsh. It would be discriminatory not to let ethnic dancers dance. It is not discriminatory if certain members of the audience choose not to watch them. It is certainly bad manners if everyone gets up at once to leave.

 

We wouldn't yell gender discrimination if gay men chose not to watch women strip, or if straight guys chose not to watch gay porn. It is not age discrimination if my dick gets hard only with the twinky boys. The key to stopping true discrimination is ACCEPTANCE of diversity. It doesn't mean that you personally have to be diverse.

[Guest TruthTeller]

RE: Discrimination In The Gay Community

 

>Well, I'm gonna have to disagree here. If we are talking

>about two individuals I might agree... but we are not. It

>is definitely discrimination... why I think it is

>"discrimination" is pursued below.

 

I think you need to be clear about what you mean by "discrimiation." Strictly speaking, other than those individuals who are sexually attracted to every person on the planet, EVERYONE "discriminates" with respect to who they find sexually appealing.

 

But when used in connection with black people - and especially the way Godiva presented the issue - the term implies some sort of bigotry or, at the very least, culpable conduct.

 

Clearly, being sexually attracted to individuals of one race, but not another, constitutes "discrimination" - but it is no different than finding muscular people attractive and fat people unattractive - or blonds attractive but bald people unattractive - or young people attractive but old people unattractive. It is "discrimination" only in a completely innocuous and BLAMELESS form, and not in the culpable sense of, say, refusing to hire or dine with blacks.

 

>This is not to justify discrimination because all forms have

>insidious effects upon the target group -- including the one

>under discussion.

 

So what. People aren't entitled to have everything they want. Nobody is entitled to be sexually lusted after. I'd say that fat dancers, old dancers, and female dancers would drive everyone out of their Gaiety seats a lot faster than black dancers - do you think that's "insidious," too?

 

>But there is some distribution of

>characteristic within any race thus we are likely to find a

>significant number of indivudals within any race with

>attractive characteristics. We all have biases and it

>affects our preferences but when our preferences always

>follow the same pattern despite the distribution in physical

>characteristics within a race then something more than

>simple sexual preference probably is going on.

 

I don't agree with any of this. Our sexuality is very complex and has multiple influences, the strongest of which likely occur early in life, and many of which are formed by our interaction with our parents. If most white children are exposed primarily to white people - including their parents - it's hardly surprising that their sexuality will develop based upon, and with attachments to, other white peopele.

 

Do you think it's true that for black people who find only other blacks attractive, "something more than simple sexual prefence [is] probably going on?" Do you think that's true of whites who are attracted only to blacks, or whites who are attracted primarily to Asians? To try and import notions of bigotry into sexual attraction is to bring notions of political correctness to a very twisted level.

 

>Again, I buy this for a given pair of individuals --

>audience member and dancer. But when the same people leave

>time and again when different black dancers with differing

>physical characteristics are on it does make one wonder, at

>the least. (How do I know this to be the fact? I don't

>really know but it is my impression from limited

>observations and it is the basis for my discussion.)

 

Why would this make you wonder? It's obvious what's going on: Most of the patrons at the Gaiety aren't sexually attracted to black people, just like most of them aren't attracted to fat people, old people, hairy people, bald people, etc. They have a type which they find sexually arousing - young, smooth, sculpted, white males. Anyone who deviates from that mold - whether it has to do with race or otherwise - just doesn't sexually arouse them.

 

They may love to have dinner with the black dancers. They may love to be friends with them. But - as you pointed out - this does not equate to sexual arousal. They simply do not get sexually aroused by most black people. How could you possibly see anything wrong with that?

[Guest TruthTeller]

RE: The Value of Experience

 

>Oh I'm sorry..It must then be sheer coincedence that

>everytime some non-white dancer performs and the same

>routine happens..drinks, bathroom break..smoking..till the

>next dancer comes on and all of a sudden we are suddenly

>interested again...don't be afraid of calling it what it is.

 

It's obvious what it is: they leave because they aren't sexually attracted to black people, so they don't stay for black dancers. They also wouldn't stay for fat dancers, old dancers, and any other type of dancers who have attributes by which they are not sexually aroused.

 

I think any dancer who isn't found attractive by large numbers of the audience has his feelings hurt. But when the dancer is black, the hurt often tranforms into feelings of racism - they don't want to believe that they aren't sexually desirable, so they blame the audience for racism, when, in reality, all that it means is that the audience isn't sexually attracted to blacks, just like they're not sexually attracted to fat people, old people, etc.

 

There are clubs which feature black and latino dancers almost exclusively. People who are sexually attracted to blacks and latinos go there to see black and latino dancers. If a white Gaiety-type dancer got on stage, the audience would be very uninterested. Do you find that racist, too?

[vers7]

RE: Discrimination In The Gay Community.....

 

As I stated in my original reply, when you throw sexual attraction into the mix regarding inter-race relations, things get complicated. TT basically mirrored what I suggested porn makers state when rationalizing not including more inter-racial actors: "While we are not racist, we realize that many white men do not find black men sexually attractive -- it's a matter of sexual preference, not racism." It certainly is true that we are attracted to whom we attracted to. However, that begs the question; namely, why do many white me seem not to be attracted to black men? Might it be that we are raised in a racist society and we internalize unconsciously a great deal of racist ideations without realizing it? Might it not be a good thing to confront that in us?

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

RE: Discrimination In The Gay Community

 

>I think you need to be clear about what you mean by

>"discrimiation."

 

I will try to do better...

 

>Strictly speaking, other than those

>individuals who are sexually attracted to every person on

>the planet, EVERYONE "discriminates" with respect to who

>they find sexually appealing.

>

Very true.

 

>But when used in connection with black people - and

>especially the way Godiva presented the issue - the term

>implies some sort of bigotry or, at the very least, culpable

>conduct.

 

Excepting the comment "especially the way Godiva presented the issue" -- I grant that is often the case in this PC world of today. I don't subscribe to the narrow use of this word with a broader meaning. I do not believe that all discrimination is evil or imbued with negative intent. Of course it depends on the purpose and the effect.

 

With regard to the part about Godiva's coment --

 

>and especially the way Godiva presented the issue - the term

>implies some sort of bigotry or, at the very least, culpable

>conduct.

>

 

I did not take it that way myself as I inadequately tried to indicate in my first post in this thread.I viewed it as an unfortunate situation only, not necessarily stemming from bogtry, at least not entirely. My other point in that comment alluded to, inadequately again, was that the consequence is just as unfortunate whatever the intent.

 

>Clearly, being sexually attracted to individuals of one

>race, but not another, constitutes "discrimination" - but it

>is no different than finding muscular people attractive and

>fat people unattractive - or blonds attractive but bald

>people unattractive - or young people attractive but old

>people unattractive.

 

... or short or tall or twinkish or butch....

 

I agree with you and I think you go part way to making my case. There is no difference as you point out... until it's time to go to the restroom or get refreshments or whatever. Then there seems to be a noticeable difference. When discrimiation leads to different action then one might ask is there some difference in the discrimination? Or is it that all those who don't like em tall and those who don't like short and those who don't like em muscular and those who don't like em with swimmers builds have their bladders overflow at the same time. No, I think they don't like em black... and that is racial discrimination plainly put. But I do not attribute raw bigotry or negative intent in all cases or even in most cases.

 

It is "discrimination" only in a

>completely innocuous and BLAMELESS form, and not in the

>culpable sense of, say, refusing to hire or dine with

>blacks.

>

I agree generally with you that the sexual preference aspect introduces a blameless aspect here although not entirely innocuous because of its non-innocous effect. But your contrast with the culpable sense of refusal to dine goes too far to try to separate the two, I think. It represents, it seems to me, a modern day PC attitude that was not present in the intent or letter of the Civil RIght Acts of 1964 and succeeding acts. Nowhere was there a requirement that people like who they hire or permit to dine in their establishments or to sleep in their hotels, only that they be accommodated. We cannot legislate attitudes only actions -- a lesson not easily learned by the government and the courts. To carry it further... we cannot legislate sexual preference or action resulting therefrom. And I beiieve that point probably lies at the crux of this thread. Those that view only those acts as acts of 'discrimination' wortthy of legal remedy. I do not hold such a narrow view of 'discrimination' as stated above. And I do not believe that discrimination in sexual preference based on bigotry or benign considerations is capable or remedy by legal action... period.

 

>>This is not to justify discrimination because all forms have

>>insidious effects upon the target group -- including the one

>>under discussion.

>

>So what. People aren't entitled to have everything they

>want. Nobody is entitled to be sexually lusted after.

 

I agree again. Nevertheless, there is an intangible impact on the dancers as well as a concrete impact on their earning potential pure and simple -- it is due to racial discrimination in sexual preference and it is a fact of life. I'm not indicting sexual preference, it is what it is. I have my own as we all do. I don't label racial sexual preference as evil or rooted in bogotry in all or even most cases but racial sexual preference is racial discrimination, it does exist and it is unfortunante in its consquence on the black dancers. If you or others want to reserve the word discrimination to connote only evil and bigoted actions then how will we describe benign descrimination based on gender, race, intelligence, or just bad breath.

>

 

>>But there is some distribution of

>>characteristic within any race thus we are likely to find a

>>significant number of indivudals within any race with

>>attractive characteristics. We all have biases and it

>>affects our preferences but when our preferences always

>>follow the same pattern despite the distribution in physical

>>characteristics within a race then something more than

>>simple sexual preference probably is going on.

>

>I don't agree with any of this. Our sexuality is very

>complex and has multiple influences, the strongest of which

>likely occur early in life, and many of which are formed by

>our interaction with our parents. If most white children

>are exposed primarily to white people - including their

>parents - it's hardly surprising that their sexuality will

>develop based upon, and with attachments to, other white

>peopele.

>

>Do you think it's true that for black people who find only

>other blacks attractive, "something more than simple sexual

>prefence [is] probably going on?" Do you think that's true

>of whites who are attracted only to blacks, or whites who

>are attracted primarily to Asians? To try and import

>notions of bigotry into sexual attraction is to bring

>notions of political correctness to a very twisted level.

>

>>Again, I buy this for a given pair of individuals --

>>audience member and dancer. But when the same people leave

>>time and again when different black dancers with differing

>>physical characteristics are on it does make one wonder, at

>>the least. (How do I know this to be the fact? I don't

>>really know but it is my impression from limited

>>observations and it is the basis for my discussion.)

>

>Why would this make you wonder? It's obvious what's going

>on: Most of the patrons at the Gaiety aren't sexually

>attracted to black people, just like most of them aren't

>attracted to fat people, old people, hairy people, bald

>people, etc. They have a type which they find sexually

>arousing - young, smooth, sculpted, white males. Anyone

>who deviates from that mold - whether it has to do with race

>or otherwise - just doesn't sexually arouse them.

>

>They may love to have dinner with the black dancers. They

>may love to be friends with them. But - as you pointed out

>- this does not equate to sexual arousal. They simply do

>not get sexually aroused by most black people. How could

>you possibly see anything wrong with that?

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

RE: Discrimination In The Gay Community

 

Well, midway in editing the prior post I hit the post butttion instead of the preview button -- thus the reason for the long tail end just hanging out there. x( Probably a merciful act of fate for me and for you. So I will bow to fate and leave what is arguable my tempest in a teapot where it is. MY point -- it is racial discrimination in sexual preference plain and simple, not rooted in bigotry and evil but it has similar consequences, and it is not appropriate to legal remedy,

 

I think I have had more than my say.

[Guest pickwick]

RE: Discrimination In The Gay Community

 

I have to agree that those who cry "racism" when they come across men who aren't attracted to men of a particular race are misusing a term that should refer to a different set of interactions. We've been through a period in our history in which anyone who finds anything to dislike or disapprove in the members of any identifiable group is smeared with terms like "racism" and "homophobia" that are meant to define something much narrower. The result has been to diminish the credibility of such accusations and make them far less effective in cases in which they are truly appropriate.

[Godiva]

RE: Discrimination In The Gay Community

 

Hey All..just wanted to say thanxs to those who expresed your very strong views in this thread. I appreciated your honesty an as usual respect your opinions.

 

Thanxs Again

 

G

[+ Lucky]

RE: Discrimination In The Gay Community

 

My guess is that even girls appreciate honesty!