Testing if gay refugee applicants are really gay?

[+ tassojunior]

This blast from the past (2010) came across my Czech gay news feed today and I don't know how I missed it originally. The possibilities.....

EU says Czech “arousal” test for gay asylum seekers could violate human rights convention

[CuriousByNature]

I think it would definitely cross boundaries and violate human rights.

[Guest]

If there are some handsome ones, I offer my services as inspector. I feel a song coming on. 😄

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Unicorn

[+ friendofsheila]

Kiss-Starter campaign to make a fund so gay refugees can go to daddysreviews, pick out a man, fly him there to make out with the person.

[+ sync]

On 7/15/2023 at 1:36 PM, Unicorn said:

If there are some handsome ones, I offer my services as inspector. I feel a song coming on. 😄

 

I would like to be considered for a deputy inspector position.  😛

[marylander1940]

On 7/15/2023 at 6:56 AM, tassojunior said:

This blast from the past (2010) came across my Czech gay news feed today and I don't know how I missed it originally. The possibilities.....

EU says Czech “arousal” test for gay asylum seekers could violate human rights convention

Taking this slightly off subject.... reminds me of civil unions and marriages of convenience.

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by marylander1940

[samhexum]

On 7/15/2023 at 9:56 AM, tassojunior said:

EU says Czech “arousal” test for gay asylum seekers could violate human rights convention

 

On 7/15/2023 at 12:05 PM, CuriousByNature said:

I think it would definitely cross boundaries and violate human rights.

 

On 7/15/2023 at 1:36 PM, Unicorn said:

I offer my services as inspector.

 

7 hours ago, sync said:

I would like to be considered for a deputy inspector position.  😛

Rose and Ernie’s weekend starts out wonderful, and after a while, Ernie confides in Rose that he’s impotent.

“Impotent? Are you sure?”
“Oh, Blanche, what would you have done, asked him to prove it?”
-Blanche and Dorothy

[BSR]

On 7/15/2023 at 9:05 AM, CuriousByNature said:

I think it would definitely cross boundaries and violate human rights.

I think it depends on how the testing is done.  If they force you to strip while you watch gay porn, uh, not cool.  If they attach sensors (to your hands or forehead, not down under) that monitor your pulse, perspiration, etc., then I think it's fair game.

The vast majority of those applying for asylum are denied because the definition of "refugee" is actually quite strict.  If your claim for asylum is that your life is in danger for being gay, then the government to which you're applying should have the right to determine if you are indeed gay.

Do you think nations should just take the applicant's word for it?  How would you verify that the applicant's claim is true?

[CuriousByNature]

15 minutes ago, BSR said:

I think it depends on how the testing is done.  If they force you to strip while you watch gay porn, uh, not cool.  If they attach sensors (to your hands or forehead, not down under) that monitor your pulse, perspiration, etc., then I think it's fair game.

The vast majority of those applying for asylum are denied because the definition of "refugee" is actually quite strict.  If your claim for asylum is that your life is in danger for being gay, then the government to which you're applying should have the right to determine if you are indeed gay.

Do you think nations should just take the applicant's word for it?  How would you verify that the applicant's claim is true?

It's a difficult situation, no doubt.  But the person adjudicating the claim of refugee status would presumably use interviewing to discern the credibility and reliability of the applicant.  I don't believe any sensors, or things even more invasive, should be employed.  Everything carries a margin of error and there will always be those who are able to thwart the system and be accepted as refugees even if their claim is false.  The key, in my opinion, is to reduce the number of authentic refugees that might be sent back to lethal regimes by a system that is too concerned about false refugees making it through.  

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, BSR said:

... If they attach sensors (to your hands or forehead, not down under)....

Do you think nations should just take the applicant's word for it?...

Well, actually, the sensors in the article discussed were placed in the genitals:

"What is known as phallometric testing has been carried out in the Czech Republic on gay men who have claimed asylum on the grounds that they could face persecution in their own countries. The blood flow in their penis is measured as they view pornography and other images, with the aim of ascertaining whether they are indeed homosexual...". There should normally be less invasive means of determining sexual orientation, such as determining his social circle, who he connects with, witnesses. When my ex got asylum from Russia, the fact that he'd been living with me, as well as his stories of persecution in Russia, were considered adequate evidence. I remember in the 70s, a straight high school friend asking me if I'd vouch for him in case he was drafted (there was no draft at the time, but we did still have to register). 

[BSR]

26 minutes ago, CuriousByNature said:

It's a difficult situation, no doubt.  But the person adjudicating the claim of refugee status would presumably use interviewing to discern the credibility and reliability of the applicant.  I don't believe any sensors, or things even more invasive, should be employed.  Everything carries a margin of error and there will always be those who are able to thwart the system and be accepted as refugees even if their claim is false.  The key, in my opinion, is to reduce the number of authentic refugees that might be sent back to lethal regimes by a system that is too concerned about false refugees making it through.  

I've never heard of cases of legitimate refugees being sent back to their likely deaths, but if you have a source, please post.  I do know that the vast majority of asylum applications are bogus, as high as 99%.

[CuriousByNature]

1 minute ago, BSR said:

I've never heard of cases of legitimate refugees being sent back to their likely deaths, but if you have a source, please post.  I do know that the vast majority of asylum applications are bogus, as high as 99%.

I don't have a source to cite, but what I was getting at is that a system that is too strict in how assessments are undertaken will run the risk of screening out some of those who have a genuine claim.  Depending on the country of origin, there are likely other factors besides orientation that could put a person at risk.  I also think, perhaps naively, that someone from a country where being LGBT is outlawed might not want to claim to be LGBT unless they actually were.  This is where proper adjudication and a full exploration of a claimant's credibility is essential.  Making them undergo testing to 'prove' their case would only harm those who are genuinely LGBT - I imagine most LGBT making a refugee claim would be so scared of being sent back to their country of origin that the test results might not be particularly accurate.

 

[CuriousByNature]

34 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

Well, actually, the sensors in the article discussed were placed in the genitals:

"What is known as phallometric testing has been carried out in the Czech Republic on gay men who have claimed asylum on the grounds that they could face persecution in their own countries. The blood flow in their penis is measured as they view pornography and other images, with the aim of ascertaining whether they are indeed homosexual...". There should normally be less invasive means of determining sexual orientation, such as determining his social circle, who he connects with, witnesses. When my ex got asylum from Russia, the fact that he'd been living with me, as well as his stories of persecution in Russia, were considered adequate evidence. I remember in the 70s, a straight high school friend asking me if I'd vouch for him in case he was drafted (there was no draft at the time, but we did still have to register). 

The phalometric testing comes up short (pun intended) on a number of levels.  If a straight and false claimant is shown gay imagery, they could concentrate on straight erotic thoughts and affect their blood flow.  And if they were shown straight imagery, which should not in theory cause an arousal, they could follow the advice of Victorian-era mothers to their daughters, and 'close their eyes and think of England'... LOL

[BSR]

2 hours ago, CuriousByNature said:

The phalometric testing comes up short (pun intended) on a number of levels.  If a straight and false claimant is shown gay imagery, they could concentrate on straight erotic thoughts and affect their blood flow.  And if they were shown straight imagery, which should not in theory cause an arousal, they could follow the advice of Victorian-era mothers to their daughters, and 'close their eyes and think of England'... LOL

I googled how to beat a polygraph and found out that it depends mostly on the skill & experience of the examiner.  To beat a polygraph done by an expert examiner takes years of training.  I wonder if phalometric testing is done along with a polygraph because, as you point out, beating the phalometer (or whatever it's called) alone probably wouldn't be that tough.

[CuriousByNature]

7 minutes ago, BSR said:

I googled how to beat a polygraph and found out that it depends mostly on the skill & experience of the examiner.  To beat a polygraph done by an expert examiner takes years of training.  I wonder if phalometric testing is done along with a polygraph because, as you point out, beating the phalometer (or whatever it's called) alone probably wouldn't be that tough.

I wonder if Home Depot sells phalometers... hahaha.  Or if you can get one installed in your car between the speedometer and odometer 

[Rod Hagen]

Bruce La Bruce already covered all this :-)

 

 

Refugee's Welcome by Bruce LaBruce - Gay Online HD

WWW.GAYTHEBEST.COM

---

Inspired by the deeply moving and brave story of a gay Syrian refugee arriving in Germany, Erika passed the confession on to the prolific, fantastic and...

 

[+ tassojunior]

test their knowledge of Diana Ross songs. 

make them sing Y.M.C.A.

 make them decorate a room. 

 

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by tassojunior

[marylander1940]

Taking this slightly of subject it would be interesting to see how many of us are really "straight acting"  and who was able to pass as straight to classmates coworkers, relatives, etc. 

[BSR]

6 hours ago, Rod Hagen said:

Bruce La Bruce already covered all this 🙂

 

 

Refugee's Welcome by Bruce LaBruce - Gay Online HD

WWW.GAYTHEBEST.COM

---

Inspired by the deeply moving and brave story of a gay Syrian refugee arriving in Germany, Erika passed the confession on to the prolific, fantastic and...

 

Are subtitles available?  I kept fiddling trying to get subtitles, but everything I did caused a popup to stop the video.

[CuriousByNature]

5 hours ago, tassojunior said:

test their knowledge of Diana Ross songs. 

make them sing Y.M.C.A.

 make them decorate a room. 

 

 

Have them move to a scummy neighbourhood and watch to see if it becomes gentrified and livable?

[+ tassojunior]

turn back anyone in white boxers of course. 

 

[+ tassojunior]

I have a feeling whoever proposed this had seen too many of the William Higgins "Immigration Police" series. (Tomas Selak knows how to pass a gay test). 

 

But it shows major progress from the days when being gay barred one from immigration to today when you have to prove you're gay to get in !

 

Edited July 23, 2023 by tassojunior

[Guest]

3 hours ago, tassojunior said:

...But it shows major progress from the days when being gay barred one from immigration to today when you have to prove you're gay to get in !

That reminds me of the old joke about the man who's asked by Australian immigration on entry, if the man had a criminal record. The man replied "Is that still a requirement?". 😁

[+ tassojunior]

On 7/21/2023 at 7:25 PM, CuriousByNature said:

I don't have a source to cite, but what I was getting at is that a system that is too strict in how assessments are undertaken will run the risk of screening out some of those who have a genuine claim.  Depending on the country of origin, there are likely other factors besides orientation that could put a person at risk.  I also think, perhaps naively, that someone from a country where being LGBT is outlawed might not want to claim to be LGBT unless they actually were.  This is where proper adjudication and a full exploration of a claimant's credibility is essential.  Making them undergo testing to 'prove' their case would only harm those who are genuinely LGBT - I imagine most LGBT making a refugee claim would be so scared of being sent back to their country of origin that the test results might not be particularly accurate.

 

Let's be honest. Neither the US or EU is going to let in millions of Ugandans, Nigerians, or Arabs from Saudi Arabia where they do have the death penalty for gay acts and it's carried out a lot. There are actually quiet a few countries with the death penalty for gay acts. I don't care if the person is clearly gay and has been charged with a capital gay crime they're not getting in the US and if here will be sent home to be executed sometimes if they can't find a place that will take them. The US can be hypocritical regarding some races. The EU may be a tiny bit easier in some countries but that's changing for the worse and not just in the Slavic countries).  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, tassojunior said:

Let's be honest. Neither the US or EU is going to let in millions of Ugandans, Nigerians, or Arabs from Saudi Arabia where they do have the death penalty for gay acts and it's carried out a lot. There are actually quiet a few countries with the death penalty for gay acts...

Well, according to Wikipedia, the only places where LGBT are actually executed are Afghanistan, Iran, Chechnya, Nigeria, and Somalia, although the death penalty is on the books for other places such as Saudi Arabia and Uganda (dark brown shows places with execution, orange-brown with death penalty on the books):

That being said, the most difficult part for gays from the countries in the brown, orange, and beige countries to getting asylum in more friendly countries is physically getting there. Anyone wishing to support helping people in those countries getting out can support the Rainbow Railroad:

Rainbow Railroad

WWW.RAINBOWRAILROAD.ORG

---

Rainbow Railroad helps LGBTQI+ people escape state-sponsored violence. Learn more or request help today.

Apparently the easiest country to get asylum from is Canada, though if one can get to the US or EU, asylum is usually granted as well.