Anybody else get confused by those who use plural, not gender-neutral?

[Xavitv]

4 hours ago, Unicorn said:

Yes, I obviously figured it out, but with the first sentences, it was confusing. The use of gender-neutral pronouns would eliminate having to figure things out. 

But then folks would complain about using non traditional pronouns. They doesn’t really change its use or meaning in this case. 

[mike carey]

6 hours ago, Unicorn said:

There are certainly members who would manage to disagree with me if I were to state that Lake Superior is wet. I probably don't give a lot of weight to those members' thoughtful 4-word sentence contradictions. 

Yes, there are people who disagree with statements of objective reality. Whether gender neutral programs are confusing is not an objective fact, it is a subjective assessment that each individual makes.

[rvwnsd]

The use of "they/them/their" in professional writing is nothing new. In the late 1980's, my employer (a large bank) used they/them/their because using male pronouns was sexist and using he/she, she/he, or (s)he was awkward. They also used gender-neutral names in training materials and advertising. This wasn't political correctness; it was a deliberate business move. We were inclusive when competitors weren't, and we benefitted from it by attracting customers. This was also not a Millennial or GenZ-driven phenomenon. (Many weren't even born yet). Our senior leaders at the time were in their 40s, 50's, and 60's. 

 

[Guest]

14 hours ago, mike carey said:

Not confusing at all.

...

Yes, there are people who disagree with statements of objective reality. Whether gender neutral programs are confusing is not an objective fact, it is a subjective assessment that each individual makes.

Boy, that sure was a concrete response. I thought it was pretty obvious that what I found silly was to simply in essence give a thumbs down to the OP, rather than an explanation of why you disagreed, as most others did. I found it more interesting to read those who discussed the plural use in Shakespearian times, or using it when a foreign business colleague's gender is unknown (though in that situation, I would make an effort to learn Yamamoto-san's gender, rather than use the plural, but that's just me), for example. Obviously, anybody who read my original post knew going in that "they" was referring to Ezra Miller, so wouldn't be confused. I can always appreciate those who explain their reasons for disagreeing, instead of providing a gratuitous statement of the obvious.  And I'm grateful this site got rid of the equally mindless "thumbs down" response emoji.

A number of respondents in this string find the use of "they" when referring to one person confusing. It may not be felt universally, but this use apparently confuses a number of people, not just myself. 

Edited July 6, 2023 by Unicorn

[Guest]

On 7/4/2023 at 7:33 PM, wsc said:

...Gore Vidal once criticized Norman Mailer, saying that he (Mailer) never sent a reader to the dictionary. One man's clear communication is another man's teachable moment. It's a matter of perspective...

Thanks for explaining why I stopped reading Gore Vidal books. You've made me understand that he was using pompous language intentionally, knowing he'd be sending people to the dictionary. I most commonly read books when traveling. In other words, I'm usually on a plane, train, bus, or ship, or I'm at the beach/poolside. I do not want to carry a dictionary with me in any of those situations, and I find it inane and irritating to have to keep putting down the book I'm reading to look up words, just to feed an author's ego. 

[wsc]

22 hours ago, Unicorn said:

Thanks for explaining why I stopped reading Gore Vidal books. You've made me understand that he was using pompous language intentionally, knowing he'd be sending people to the dictionary. I most commonly read books when traveling. In other words, I'm usually on a plane, train, bus, or ship, or I'm at the beach/poolside. I do not want to carry a dictionary with me in any of those situations, and I find it inane and irritating to have to keep putting down the book I'm reading to look up words, just to feed an author's ego. 

Rather than stop completely, I would have saved Gore for quieter times and places, and which afforded greater ease of access to reference materials. I would do the same for William F. Buckley, if I were any longer interested in the overly erudite ramblings of a self-congratulatory political Neanderthal and reactionary religious bigot. He did, however, exhibit a masterly and admirable hold on the English language. As did James J. Kilpatrick, of Point-Counterpoint fame (vs Shana Alexander) and who gave inspiration to Dan Ackroyd's delightful "Jane, you ignorant slut" take-off on SNL. His newspaper column, The Writer's Art, was entertaining as well as instructive. Kilpatrick's ingrained and rampant racism, however, makes his legacy considerably less appealing or respectable. But his language talents are undeniable, so I take the best and leave the rest of him.

Rather than shrink from vocabulary challenges, I welcome them, as I very much enjoy finding new words and delving into their derivation, development, and deployment.

I also drink too much.

Edited July 7, 2023 by wsc
correct name

[samhexum]

On 7/4/2023 at 4:47 PM, Unicorn said:

Anybody else get confused by those who use plural, not gender-neutral?

Demi Lovato wasn't confused; she/they was/were just tired...

FOR DEMI LOVATO, the process of figuring out their gender identity has been mostly explorative but also tiring. In May 2021, the musician announced that they identify as non-binary and would use they/them pronouns going forward. Then, just over a year later, they shared that they’re also comfortable using she/her pronouns, citing that she had been feeling more feminine. Now, in a recent interview with GQ Hype Spain, she revealed that in reality, using both she/her and they/them pronouns just meant she didn’t have to constantly explain herself to people.

“I constantly had to educate people and explain why I identified with those pronouns. It was absolutely exhausting. And that is one of the reasons that have led me to also feel comfortable with the feminine pronoun,” Lovato explained in the interview, translated from Spanish. “I just got tired. But for that very reason I know that it is important to continue spreading the word.”

Sam Smith made the switch to they/them pronouns in 2019 after coming out as non-binary. “I understand there will be many mistakes and misgendering, but all I ask is you please please try,” they wrote on Twitter at the time. Lovato shared a similar sentiment a few months after their own switch, tweeting: “If you misgender me — that’s okay. I accidentally misgender myself sometimes. It’s a huge transition to change the pronouns I’ve used for myself my entire life. And it’s difficult to remember sometimes!”

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, samhexum said:

... “... I accidentally misgender myself sometimes. It’s a huge transition to change the pronouns I’ve used for myself my entire life. And it’s difficult to remember sometimes!”

At least someone's being honest--and that's from someone who lives it every day (more honest than some posters here). 

[Danny-Darko]

Here's and easy guide for those struggling with English Grammar: 

[mike carey]

You've spelt 'simplistic' incorrectly.

[marylander1940]

Call yourself however you want! 

I'd rather fight other battles and I don't want to lose over another cultural war! 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, mike carey said:

You've spelt 'simplistic' incorrectly.

Is someone taking a habit with these 4-word responses? That's starting to remind me of the late President Calvin Coolidge. When a reporter told him that he made a bet that he could get him to speak a sentence with more than 4 words, Silent Cal responded "You lose." That being said, you probably used 4 words too many when you simply repeated word for word the response given by @Xavitv two posts up. When I agree with someone's post, and I have nothing intelligent to add, I simply use the "+1" comment emoji. I prefer not to sound like a parrot.