Spanish Immersion Program

[Guest]

I agree with @BSR on this. Context is important. Colombian and Mexican pronunciation and grammar are virtually identical, and those also happen to be the largest two Spanish-speaking countries among those for whom Spanish is the main language (technically, the US is #2 in terms of numbers of Spanish speakers, but it's not a primarily Spanish-speaking country, though quite a few TV shows are produced in the US). The only differences are minor expressions. For example, when I've gone out with Colombian men, they frequently use the expression "ichévere! to express satisfaction with something (like "Great!" or "Groovy!"). I've never heard that expression used by men from other countries. Similarly, the use of the expression "iCaramba! or "Ay, Chihuahua!" will mark a Mexican (though those expressions are not as frequent as the constant "ichévere!" the Colombians exclaim, kind of like the incessant "Eh?" one hears from Canadians). 

Edited April 10, 2023 by Unicorn

[BSR]

5 hours ago, Unicorn said:

I agree with @BSR on this. Context is important. Colombian and Mexican pronunciation and grammar are virtually identical, and those also happen to be the largest two Spanish-speaking countries among those for whom Spanish is the main language (technically, the US is #2 in terms of numbers of Spanish speakers, but it's not a primarily Spanish-speaking country, though quite a few TV shows are produced in the US). The only differences are minor expressions. For example, when I've gone out with Colombian men, they frequently use the expression "ichévere! to express satisfaction with something (like "Great!" or "Groovy!"). I've never heard that expression used by men from other countries. Similarly, the use of the expression "iCaramba! or "Ay, Chihuahua!" will mark a Mexican (though those expressions are not as frequent as the constant "ichévere!" the Colombians exclaim, kind of like the incessant "Eh?" one hears from Canadians). 

Not sure we're on the same page ... Despite its abundance of top-notch language schools, Salamanca would be a bad fit for @menaughty because of his affinity for Latin America.  Colombia, on the other hand, would suit him for that same reason, not because of the similarity between Mexican and Colombian Spanish.

I think you're exaggerating the differences between countries.  First of all, Spanish grammar is pretty much the same everywhere.  The exceptions of vos & vosotros are negligible.  When a Spaniard uses vosotros in Mexico or an Argentine uses vos in Madrid, nobody blinks an eye.  Yes, pronunciation does vary, but wherever menaughty studies, people from every other country will understand him just fine.  The greatest differences are slang & colloquialisms, but once people pick up that you're a 2nd-language speaker, they stop using them (consciously or not).  Besides, the best way to learn slang from other countries is watching TV, like I heard Juanes say chévere umpteen times when he was a coach on La Voz España.

Yes, Québécois is very different from Gallic French and Swiss German very different from High German, but as @pubic_assistance said, Spanish is Spanish the whole world 'round, just like we can understand English from every every other English-speaking country.  Sure, there are occasional problems, like a super-thick Cockney accent or his example of areas where vocabulary comes from indigenous languages, but those exceptions are few and far between.

The OP has so many issues to consider:  study or party (of course you can do both, but the emphasis usually ends up being one or the other), budget, visa, length of stay, climate, big or small city, finding a top-notch school, and most of all, figuring out what place appeals to him the most.  Once he sorts out all those issues, the "issue" of Mexican vs. Castilian vs. Porteño becomes a non-issue.

Edited April 10, 2023 by BSR
Typo

[liubit]

5 hours ago, Unicorn said:

Colombian men, they frequently use the expression "ichévere! to express satisfaction with something (like "Great!" or "Groovy!"). I've never heard that expression used by men from other countries.

Chévere is extensively used in Venezuela too, @Unicorn. 

[Xavitv]

30 minutes ago, liubit said:

Chévere is extensively used in Venezuela too, @Unicorn. 

Same in Ecuador and Peru. 

[+ José Soplanucas]

Wow. I find myself agreeing with @BSR. Unexpected. 😇

@Unicorn, I think, on the one hand, you are exaggerating the differences between regional Spanish variations. As BSR pointed out, the grammar is the same as Castillian's. In the K-12 system in Argentina, the local Language Arts classes are not named Español but Castellano. 

On the other hand, you are blurring the differences between Mexico and Colombian variations. This could be because you are not a native speaker, and it is harder for you to distinguish regional accents, as it is for me to determine them in English and other languages that are not my first tongue. Besides, Mexico and Colombia are big countries, and there are variations inside of them.

The regional differences do not have to do with grammar but with vocabulary and accent (I like to talk about music). Furthermore, I do not think it is accurate to speak of national variations but regional and subregional variations.

There is no difference between the Spanish spoken in the Argentinean NW and Bolivia, for instance, or between most of Colombia and Venezuela. Mexicans from the North speak pretty differently than Mexicans from the South (who have a Spanish very similar to Colombians).

[Guest]

4 hours ago, liubit said:

Chévere is extensively used in Venezuela too, @Unicorn. 

I'll take your word for it. I just tend to fuck a lot of Colombians, and I can't recall ever being with a Venezuelan. 😜🍆 I don't think I ever implied that Spanish learned in Castile can't be understood anywhere in the Spanish-speaking world. Just that Colombian or Mexican Spanish is more neutral and readily understood. As I said previously, much less than the differences between Canadian and Continental French, and much less than Swiss German and High German. 

My partner and I do have trouble understanding many Brits when they talk. I can recall a couple of times I've declined renting a DVD on Netflix when the reviews complain that there aren't any subtitles (or sending it back when I discovered it myself). (Yes, I still use that service 🙄). Yes, in real life, I can ask the Englishman or Scotsman with the non-RP pronunciation to slow down, and he'll probably adjust his speaking for his audience. But, if you're going to be a globe trotter, or simply fucking men from around the world, why not communicate in the most neutral manner feasible? (Note: even the Brits admit they have trouble understanding each other when they don't use received pronunciation)

[pubic_assistance]

7 hours ago, BSR said:

First of all, Spanish grammar is pretty much the same everywhere. 

Maybe the official grammar, but in my experience the Spanish in Madrid speak in a much more grand manner with a more formal tone, than a Puerto-Rican would in San Juan.

[Marc in Calif]

17 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

Maybe the official grammar, but in my experience the Spanish in Madrid speak in a much more grand manner with a more formal tone, than a Puerto-Rican would in San Juan.

Neither tone nor vocabulary are part of grammar. Trust me on that. 

[pubic_assistance]

34 minutes ago, Marc in Calif said:

Neither tone nor vocabulary are part of grammar. Trust me on that. 

Obviously.

But my experience in Madrid is that even the lowliest common working class speak "proper" Spanish but I can barely understand the gibberish that is spoken on the streets of San Juan. ( Not to say there isn't an upper class population there who do speak clearly ) Just that when you're out and about in Puerto Rico, it's a very rough street lingo being spoken and all run together like one giant word.

[+ José Soplanucas]

1 hour ago, pubic_assistance said:

Obviously.

But my experience in Madrid is that even the lowliest common working class speak "proper" Spanish but I can barely understand the gibberish that is spoken on the streets of San Juan. ( Not to say there isn't an upper class population there who do speak clearly ) Just that when you're out and about in Puerto Rico, it's a very rough street lingo being spoken and all run together like one giant word.

You must have been lucky. As a native speaker, I struggle to understand the Spanish spoken and written by the uneducated poor not only from other countries but even from Argentina.

[pubic_assistance]

4 minutes ago, José Soplanucas said:

As a native speaker, I struggle to understand the Spanish spoken and written by the uneducated poor not only from other countries but even from Argentina.

Well....I didn't have the chance to READ anything that drug dealers in the back alley's of Madrid wrote down, (if they could) but they spoke to me clearly enough to know what they were selling and understood me well enough to know I wasn't buying.  Many Puerto Ricans and Dominicans on the other hand speak in a dialect that rushes past me in a way that they could be speaking Romansh for all I know.

[MassageAdam]

20 hours ago, José Soplanucas said:

So your Spanish friends think Salamanca is THE place. Well, my Colombian friends think Bogotá is THE place. My Mexican friends think CDMX is THE place. Argentinians will send you to Buenos Aires and Córdoba. My Spanish friends from Andalucía would be rooting for Sevilla.

Castillian Spanish stopped being the monopoly of Castillians when they imposed their language on the rest of Spain and the world. 

If you are planning to learn Spanish to travel or live in South America, do not go to Salamanca.

So, when I was talking about Salamanca having the purest Castilian Spanish it was just to answer someone saying Barcelona spoke the purest form.  Originally I just offered that I loved Salamanca to learn Spanish and then people went down rabbit holes that I am saying only go to Salamanca to learn Spanish.  Clearly if he wants to be in Latin America it would be better to study there.  There are computer 1:1 classes on Italki.com that you can choose an instructor from anywhere in the world and pay a very cheap rate.  

[Guest]

I suspect that the main reason Puerto Ricans are more difficult to understand is that they slur their words, rather than that the vocabulary or grammar are different. It definitely takes more effort for me to understand Puerto Ricans, Dominicans, or Cubans, but this is almost always due to how they speak rather than what words they use. I might ask them to repeat something or slow down, although I think most of the time they can tell I'm not from the islands and they adjust their cadence without my having to ask. Grammatical differences do exist, but mostly among those who insist on using voseo. I did ask my Paraguayan ex not to use voseo, since I consider it offensive, although in his country using tú is considered, in his words, "nerdy."

Central America1 Bolivia	Río de la Plata region	Chile	Venezuela (Zulia) Panama (Azuero)	meaning
No quiero que mintás.	No quiero que mientas.	No quiero que mintáis.	No quiero que mintáis.	I don't want you to lie.
No temás.	No temas.	No temái.	No temáis.	Do not fear.
Que durmás bien	Que duermas bien.	Que durmái bien.	Que durmáis bien.	Sleep well.
No te preocupés.	No te preocupes.	No te preocupís.	No te preocupéis.	Don't worry.

 

We did talk on the phone a few weeks ago to catch up and I had to remind him. His student-work visa in the US expired, and he has to go back. Unless he can find an employer to sponsor him in the US, I encouraged him to live and work in Chile for at least 5 years, then pick up Chilean citizenship (all Mercosur citizens have the right to live and work in Chile, and can also pick up Chilean citizenship after 5 years of living there). I also discouraged him from using voseo in Chile...😉

[Xavitv]

I still don’t get how voseo is offensive. 

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, Xavitv said:

I still don’t get how voseo is offensive. 

It's "ultra-familiar," so can come off as demeaning in certain cultures.

[+ José Soplanucas]

20 minutes ago, arnemgreeves said:

y Los pollas largo

I see you have not grabbed the basics.

[liubit]

2 hours ago, arnemgreeves said:

Los pollas largo

How to flunk your Spanish grammar exam in three words. 🙄

[Guest]

Just now, liubit said:

How to flunk your Spanish grammar exam in three words. 🙄

As I've said before, Google Translate is your friend. That's even true if you know the language well. Then, if the app translates incorrectly, such as words with two meanings, or using language which is too formal or too familiar, you can correct accordingly. 

[Cooper]

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Gentlemen, Let’s return to the subject, “Spanish Immersion Program”, and stop with the personal attacks. Off topic replies have been removed.