Spanish Immersion Program

[MassageAdam]

On 4/5/2023 at 12:42 PM, MscleLovr said:

To answer the OP, I learned at a language school in Barcelona. Immersion is a good way to learn quickly but it is tiring. 
 

It is generally held in Spain that the Catalans have the purest accent in speaking Castilian (Castellano) and that is why schools in Barcelona were recommended.

One small point. Spain has 3 official languages: Castilian, Catalan and Galician. (The Basque language, Euskadi, is deemed a dialect).

Actually you are wrong.  Salamanca is known for speaking the purest form of Castilian Spanish and therefore that is the place that is recommended above all else.  Half the people in Barcelona don't even like people speaking Spanish and want Catalan to be the language.  

[+ José Soplanucas]

2 hours ago, MassageAdam said:

Actually you are wrong.  Salamanca is known for speaking the purest form of Castilian Spanish and therefore that is the place that is recommended above all else.  Half the people in Barcelona don't even like people speaking Spanish and want Catalan to be the language.  

He definitely does not know what he is talking about. 

I partially disagree with you. I do not think there is any place that can claim to be the purest example of any language. Languages are living structures, constantly evolving and interacting with one another. Salamanca, hosting the most prestigious Spaniard university and being a relatively small city (I do not think the population reaches 200K), I am sure has many educated people who can speak and write very well in Castillan. But from that to say that the region has the purest form of the language there is a huge leap. 

[Guest]

Of course, "pure" is a nebulous, subjective term. I definitely agree with @José Soplanucas that languages are constantly evolving, so the term could be viewed as rather silly in that context. There could be some sense for that term for German, where regional variations can be fairly large. In German-speaking world, the German spoken in Hannover is considered to be the standard (Cologne is also well-ranked), so in that sense one could use the term "pure" (though I word prefer the word standard). In order for the OP to determine the best place to learn Spanish, one has to know what the goals are. If the goal is to be understood easily by the greatest number of people across the planet (and particularly by Spanish-speakers in the US), then Mexico or Colombia would be the best learning locations. If the goal is to retire in Madrid, well, that changes the picture. It's different still if the goal is to retire in Spain's Costa del Sol, where the Spanish is closer to the Latin American Spanish than that spoken in Madrid (at least in my opinion). I suspect that most Latinos (and people such as myself) feel more comfortable with the Spanish spoken in the Costa del Sol, and might bristle quietly inside when hearing madrileños talk ("stop that lisping!"). 😉

Edited April 8, 2023 by Unicorn

[pubic_assistance]

14 hours ago, Unicorn said:

one could use the term "pure" (though I word prefer the word standard

Agreed.

"Purity" in language would be that which is closest to it's origins. But few languages haven't changed over the millennium.

The broad range of German dialects is a good example. Most educated people in Germany know "Standard" German but that's not necessarily what's spoken at home. Same way lots of people may know how to understand "proper" Spanish, but don't generally use it. For most languages there is however what's called a "NEWS STANDARD" which is the dialect and accent in which the national news is reported. When you neutralize Spanish ( which is how Telemundo tends to be) you end up sounding like a Mexican News Reporter. Wealthy Upper Class Mexicans tend to adopt the style of speaking, and consider anyone who only speaks with a strong regional accent, to be low class.  ( Mexico has a very stratified society with a lot of focus on identifying your economic class ).

[MassageAdam]

20 hours ago, José Soplanucas said:

He definitely does not know what he is talking about. 

I partially disagree with you. I do not think there is any place that can claim to be the purest example of any language. Languages are living structures, constantly evolving and interacting with one another. Salamanca, hosting the most prestigious Spaniard university and being a relatively small city (I do not think the population reaches 200K), I am sure has many educated people who can speak and write very well in Castillan. But from that to say that the region has the purest form of the language there is a huge leap. 

I'm not trying to be snarky, but just explaining why I said it's the purest.   From a University website in New York: "In the 15th century, the first Grammar of the Castilian Language was produced in Salamanca. Since then, the city has cultivated its reputation as a center of “pure” Castillian, making it a favored destination for students who wish to learn Castillian Spanish."

Salamanca "promotes" that, several of my friends in Spain have told me that after I mention I study there, and my friends that are Spanish teachers have told me that as well.  I agree with y'all about the languages are totally evolving etc, but Salamanca prides itself and advertises itself as that.  

Again, not putting it up to argue, people can think what they want, just stating why I said what I said.  

[Marc in Calif]

1 hour ago, MassageAdam said:

Since then, the city has cultivated its reputation as a center of “pure” Castillian, making it a favored destination for students who wish to learn Castillian Spanish.

But if you're in Salamanca enrolled in a specific Spanish immersion program, do they guarantee that every instructor is a native of that city or its region? And are there no instructors from other parts of Spain? 

If an instructor isn't a native from this "pure" Castilian region, then there's no point in going there for an immersion program if you're seeking something called "pure" Castilian.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Marc in Calif

[+ José Soplanucas]

6 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

"Purity" in language would be that which is closest to it's origins.

The question, then, is when we decide to cut in the evolution continuum to identify an origin.

I think otherwise. I think the idea of "purity" of a language has to do with erudition and the need for the upper classes to be the ones able to speak a pure language. In some cases, like in Spanish, this idea is at the foundation of the Real Academia de la Lengua Española. I always liked English more because of its lack of language authority and the much more democratic idea of anyone being able to create language.

[+ José Soplanucas]

5 minutes ago, Marc in Calif said:

But if you're in Salamanca enrolled in a specific Spanish immersion program, do they guarantee that every instructor is a native of that city or its region? And are there no instructors from other parts of Spain? 

If an instructor isn't a native from this "pure" Castilian region, then there's no point in going there for an immersion program if you're seeking something called "pure" Castilian.

@Unicorn explained very well the importance of knowing the purpose before deciding where to experience language immersion.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, MassageAdam said:

...In the 15th century, the first Grammar of the Castilian Language was produced in Salamanca....

[Marc in Calif]

9 minutes ago, José Soplanucas said:

@Unicorn explained very well the importance of knowing the purpose before deciding where to experience language immersion.

I have absolutely no argument with that. ☺️

If someone's purpose is to learn something called "pure" Castilian (assuming that such a thing even exists), then going to Salamanca is a good choice ONLY if every instructor there teaches this "pure" version -- and is thus a native of Salamanca who has spoken it from birth.

Edited April 8, 2023 by Marc in Calif

[+ José Soplanucas]

Just now, Marc in Calif said:

I have absolutely no argument with that. ☺️

If someone's purpose is to learn something called "pure" Castilian (assuming that such a thing even exists), then going to Salamanca is a good choice ONLY if every instructor there teaches this "pure" version -- and is thus a native of Salamanca.

You do not need to be a native of Salamanca to be able to speak this "pure" Castillian. I am not Spaniard, but I can teach Spanish with the characteristics typical of Peninsular Spanish. All you need to teach a language is to know the language.

Applying your argument to a different situation, you would only be able to teach Spanish if you are a native Spanish speaker.

The idea of language immersion has nothing to do with the native or not quality of the instructors. It has to do with the exposition to the language inside and outside of the classroom, diminishing your brain's chances of returning to its first language.

[Xavitv]

You will learn standard Spanish in the classroom of any Spanish speaking nation.  They might spend time talking about particular words or expressions that are unique to their country/region/city, but you will learn that more when you talk to locals outside of the class. 
I don’t think learning Spanish in Mexico or Colombia will necessarily make you learn a more understandable version of the language. 

[Marc in Calif]

9 minutes ago, José Soplanucas said:

You do not need to be a native of Salamanca to be able to speak this "pure" Castillian [sic].

Again, I have absolutely NO argument with you. Your argument is with people like MassageAdam. He asserts that the "purest" Castellano is spoken only in Salamanca -- apparently by the native people in that city and the surrounding region. His reasons are historical.

MassageAdam wants to study there because it's the only place where something called "pure" Castellano is spoken. So he's assuming that all instructors there are native to the Salamanca region -- which is, I am sure, NOT the case.

Please don't confuse me with MassageAdam. Like you, I think that standard Castellano (not "pure") can be learned in many places in Spain, no matter where the instructor is originally from. 

Edited April 8, 2023 by Marc in Calif

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Xavitv said:

You will learn standard Spanish in the classroom of any Spanish speaking nation.  They might spend time talking about particular words or expressions that are unique to their country/region/city, but you will learn that more when you talk to locals outside of the class. 
I don’t think learning Spanish in Mexico or Colombia will necessarily make you learn a more understandable version of the language. 

True, you will be understandable everywhere. Differences in Spanish aren't as strong as differences between Canadian French and Continental French, or, worse, high German and Swiss German, for example. However, if you learn Spanish in less "neutral-speaking" countries and travel elsewhere, it's probably a good idea to understand the differences. In particular, in Paraguay especially, and probably in Argentina and Uruguay, voseo is used extensively. However, in some countries, particularly in El Salvador and Chile, the use of voseo can be considered insulting and offensive. And until a speaker is understood to come from one of the Caribbean islands, when speaking in North or South American, people will first wonder if he's had a drink too many. 

[pubic_assistance]

I've traveled extensively in most every Spanish speaking country from Mexico to Argentina and I managed to understand most everyone with exceptions in small villages in Guatemala, and Nicaragua, and Andes dwelling Chileans where the indigenous people threw me off by adding a bunch of native American words.  When it comes to the Caribbean, the accents can be more difficult to manage. Especially Dominican Republic.  But I agree...overall the American Spanish dialects are minimally different from one another.

I must say my favorite accent is the Buenos Aires, Argentinian ...so if I were "immersing" I would go there.

But just because it sounds sexy. 😉

[Xavitv]

48 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

True, you will be understandable everywhere. Differences in Spanish aren't as strong as differences between Canadian French and Continental French, or, worse, high German and Swiss German, for example. However, if you learn Spanish in less "neutral-speaking" countries and travel elsewhere, it's probably a good idea to understand the differences. In particular, in Paraguay especially, and probably in Argentina and Uruguay, voseo is used extensively. However, in some countries, particularly in El Salvador and Chile, the use of voseo can be considered insulting and offensive. And until a speaker is understood to come from one of the Caribbean islands, when speaking in North or South American, people will first wonder if he's had a drink too many. 

I dispute the idea of voseo being offensive. Chile got their own differences with Argentina and vos might have gotten in the crossfire. Most Spanish speakers know voseo is mostly a southern cone thing but it’s not offensive. Some Andean population in the north also use vos. 
In general Spanish will be the same but cultural and social influences might give words different meanings, syntax is the same. 

[+ José Soplanucas]

1 hour ago, Xavitv said:

I dispute the idea of voseo being offensive. Chile got their own differences with Argentina and vos might have gotten in the crossfire. Most Spanish speakers know voseo is mostly a southern cone thing but it’s not offensive. Some Andean population in the north also use vos. 
In general Spanish will be the same but cultural and social influences might give words different meanings, syntax is the same. 

South Cone and Costa Rica. Central Americans understand voceo very well.

[MassageAdam]

On 4/8/2023 at 4:18 PM, Marc in Calif said:

But if you're in Salamanca enrolled in a specific Spanish immersion program, do they guarantee that every instructor is a native of that city or its region? And are there no instructors from other parts of Spain? 

If an instructor isn't a native from this "pure" Castilian region, then there's no point in going there for an immersion program if you're seeking something called "pure" Castilian.

Well, it's going to be more pure than Spanish in Mexico, Argentina, Costa Rica, Andalusia area of Spain, Catalan area of Spain, Basque Country, Galicia region, etc etc.  Castilla is just the region and Salamanca is known for it.  It's just a simple statement.  I'm not trying to prove anything, but to think they speak better Castilian Spanish in other areas of the world is not accurate either.  Like I said with my experience, all my friends in Spain told me there is not better place than Salamanca to learn Spanish.  That's the reputation it has.  

[Marc in Calif]

29 minutes ago, MassageAdam said:

Castilla is just the region and Salamanca is known for it. 

You forgot to answer the questions:

• If you're in Salamanca enrolled in a specific Spanish immersion program, do they guarantee that every instructor is a native of that city or its region and speaks that "pure" version of Castellano?
• Are there no instructors from other parts of Spain teaching Spanish in Salamanca? 
• Would you change instructors to study with one who was born in Salamanca and thus had spoken the "pure" version from birth?

Edited April 10, 2023 by Marc in Calif

[+ José Soplanucas]

43 minutes ago, MassageAdam said:

Well, it's going to be more pure than Spanish in Mexico, Argentina, Costa Rica, Andalusia area of Spain, Catalan area of Spain, Basque Country, Galicia region, etc etc.  Castilla is just the region and Salamanca is known for it.  It's just a simple statement.  I'm not trying to prove anything, but to think they speak better Castilian Spanish in other areas of the world is not accurate either.  Like I said with my experience, all my friends in Spain told me there is not better place than Salamanca to learn Spanish.  That's the reputation it has.  

So your Spanish friends think Salamanca is THE place. Well, my Colombian friends think Bogotá is THE place. My Mexican friends think CDMX is THE place. Argentinians will send you to Buenos Aires and Córdoba. My Spanish friends from Andalucía would be rooting for Sevilla.

Castillian Spanish stopped being the monopoly of Castillians when they imposed their language on the rest of Spain and the world. 

If you are planning to learn Spanish to travel or live in South America, do not go to Salamanca.

[pubic_assistance]

I think what no one has mentioned regarding language is that the largest producer of Spanish-language film and television is Mexico..so certainly the Spanish spoken in their media is well known. 

 

[+ José Soplanucas]

7 minutes ago, pubic_assistance said:

I think what no one has mentioned regarding language is that the largest producer of Spanish-language film and television is Mexico..so certainly the Spanish spoken in their media is well known. 

 

My nephews grew up in Buenos Aires watching American cartoons doubled in Mexico. It took most of their Elementary school years to bring their Spanish back to the Rio de la Plata. They used to speak using "tú."

[BSR]

1 hour ago, José Soplanucas said:

My nephews grew up in Buenos Aires watching American cartoons doubled in Mexico. It took most of their Elementary school years to bring their Spanish back to the Rio de la Plata. They used to speak using "tú."

That beautiful porteño accent but with tú instead of vos??

Edited April 10, 2023 by BSR
Typo

[Guest]

3 hours ago, pubic_assistance said:

I think what no one has mentioned regarding language is that the largest producer of Spanish-language film and television is Mexico..so certainly the Spanish spoken in their media is well known.

Yes, this is absolutely the case, and one of the main reasons I advised in my first posting in this string that if one wants to be understood by the greatest number of people, it's best to learn the language in the country with the greatest number of speakers. French Canadians have more exposure to French movies and TV shows than the other way around, so they probably don't have much trouble understanding that form of French, which can be described as more "neutral." Most Germans can't understand the Swiss when they speak their versions of German, but the Swiss have no trouble understanding high German (for the most part). 

Most British actors take on US accents when taking on typical roles in Hollywood productions. When they keep their British accents, it's usually to portray an evil character (such as the recent Dungeons and Dragons movie). It's not always the case, of course, but that's the trend. 

[BSR]

3 hours ago, MassageAdam said:

Well, it's going to be more pure than Spanish in Mexico, Argentina, Costa Rica, Andalusia area of Spain, Catalan area of Spain, Basque Country, Galicia region, etc etc.  Castilla is just the region and Salamanca is known for it.  It's just a simple statement.  I'm not trying to prove anything, but to think they speak better Castilian Spanish in other areas of the world is not accurate either.  Like I said with my experience, all my friends in Spain told me there is not better place than Salamanca to learn Spanish.  That's the reputation it has.  

Yes, when I studied in Salamanca, I remember everyone kept saying that nearby Valladolid was where the best Spanish is spoken, but Salamanca was a close 2nd.  Honestly, I assumed it was just a marketing gimmick.  Looking back on it, I'm not sure what the "best" or "purest" Spanish even means. 

I actually learned some nonstandard pronunciations in Salamanca, like lisping Ds at the end of words and syllables (imagine: thiudath, vothka) and skipping Cs before a C or T (so I say dotor, perfeto, atheso instead of doctor, perfecto, acceso).  The former is a bit unusual even in Spain, and I'm convinced the latter is nonexistent outside of Salamanca.  But in the end, no big whoop because everyone understands me just fine.

Unless you need to learn Spanish for work, I don't think it much matters where you study.  What does matter is figuring out the location that best suits you and finding a top-notch school.  Since the OP has expressed an affinity for Latino Spanish and music, Salamanca won't work no matter how many DELE-certified & Instituto de Cervantes-accredited schools it has.  But let's say @menaughty wants to experience the hot!hot!hot! rentboys of Medellín for his immersion program yet has a long-term plan of retiring in Mexico.  This one time, you can have your cake & eat it too.  You'll have a hella good time in Colombia, and you'll get used to Mexican Spanish quickly enough.

On a more personal note, I became very close to my English-speaking "cuadrilla" (foursome) in Salamanca.  Because I was in a new country learning a new language, away from family/friends, loneliness & homesickness hit hard.  I spent a lot of time hanging out & speaking English because I needed it at the time.  Yet shortly after our year abroad ended, my friendships with the Anglo foursome faded fast because being strangers in a strange land was really all we had in common.  In contrast, 3+ decades later, I'm still close with my 2 Spanish friends from that year; we Skype, email, and Whatsapp all the time.  I've heard the same from others, that friendships with their countrymen while studying abroad weren't "real."  Of course, your mileage may vary.