Let's stop the sanitizing...

[Guest]

We're not entirely sure why flu season is so low this year, but this video seems to do a very good job of explaining possible scientific theories around it.

 

Interesting hypotheses. I did note that one hypothesis which he did NOT mention as a possible reason for the decrease in respiratory infections was the sanitizing. There are clearly many things going on at once, and thankfully there are many scientists and lots of $$ going into finding out what works and what doesn't. Our knowledge on this has really been expanding quite quickly.

[+ Lucky]

@Unicorn, of course it is an opinion. I like clean countertops and door knobs and light switches, etc. etc. etc.

You can have crumbs and gook in your new kitchen, but that isn't for me. Did you get a cum stain on the headboard? Yeah, just leave it there. The ambiance!

[+ Lucky]

@Unicorn, of course it is an opinion. I like clean countertops and door knobs and light switches, etc. etc. etc.

You can have crumbs and gook in your new kitchen, but that isn't for me. Did you get a cum stain on the headboard? Yeah, just leave it there. The ambiance!

[Monarchy79]

Is there really “extra sanitizing”, or were people not sanitizing and cleaning enough in the first place? ?

 

With knowing that a large percentage of people have delinquent issues with properly cleaning their homes, workspaces, bathing and even washing their hands, let’s please not tell people to cease of minimize any action that involves cleaning or sanitizing.

 

We need it to continue.

[Monarchy79]

Is there really “extra sanitizing”, or were people not sanitizing and cleaning enough in the first place? ?

 

With knowing that a large percentage of people have delinquent issues with properly cleaning their homes, workspaces, bathing and even washing their hands, let’s please not tell people to cease of minimize any action that involves cleaning or sanitizing.

 

We need it to continue.

[Guest]

@Unicorn, of course it is an opinion. I like clean countertops and door knobs and light switches, etc. etc. etc.

You can have crumbs and gook in your new kitchen, but that isn't for me. Did you get a cum stain on the headboard? Yeah, just leave it there. The ambiance!

I think the subject of this string is to what extent, if any, sanitizing is in the fight against Covid-19, not on aesthetics. One cannot make factual statements regarding aesthetics, which is, of course, a matter of opinion. And so far I've only gotten "Diego" to cum as far as his shoulder, not the headboard.

[Guest]

@Unicorn, of course it is an opinion. I like clean countertops and door knobs and light switches, etc. etc. etc.

You can have crumbs and gook in your new kitchen, but that isn't for me. Did you get a cum stain on the headboard? Yeah, just leave it there. The ambiance!

I think the subject of this string is to what extent, if any, sanitizing is in the fight against Covid-19, not on aesthetics. One cannot make factual statements regarding aesthetics, which is, of course, a matter of opinion. And so far I've only gotten "Diego" to cum as far as his shoulder, not the headboard.

[+ Lucky]

It occurs to me that I hardly use the Lysol sprays and Clorox wipes I stocked up on early in the pandemic, so maybe I have already stopped the sanitizing. Anyone need some wipes?

[mike carey]

We're not entirely sure why flu season is so low this year, but this video seems to do a very good job of explaining possible scientific theories around it.

'Science the crap out of it', love that.

[Guest]

But wait:

1) medical science was wrong or at least inaccurate of their assessment all these decades, and

2) we have to rely on authorities “to share more honestly what we now know” in order to see the rest of the story on epidemiological fact?

 

Hmmm, sounds like you are starting to understand the mistrust that many have in science and the government...

 

I was taught during my medical training that colds were often spread through "fomites" or surfaces/touching. If there has been any good to come out of this Covid-19 pandemic I think it can be that we learned that transmission is through air droplet transmission, not fomites. The science is out there, and I wish the authorities would share more honestly what we now know. All of this "sanitizing" we now know is of little to no benefit.

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00251-4

 

"Hundreds of studies of COVID-19 transmission have been published since the pandemic began, yet there is thought to be only one that reports transmission through a contaminated surface, by what it termed the snot–oral route. According to the report, a person with COVID-19 in China blew his nose with his hand and then pressed a button in his apartment building elevator. A second resident in the building then touched the same button and flossed with a toothpick immediately after, thereby transferring the virus from button to mouth12. But without genome sequences of the viruses infecting each person, transmission through another unknown person couldn’t be ruled out."

...

"Armed with a year’s worth of data about coronavirus cases, researchers say one fact is clear. It’s people, not surfaces, that should be the main cause for concern. Evidence from superspreading events, where numerous people are infected at once, usually in a crowded indoor space, clearly point to airborne transmission, says Marr. “You have to make up some really convoluted scenarios in order to explain superspreading events with contaminated surfaces,” she says."

Edited February 6, 2021 by BnaC

[Guest]

But wait:

1) medical science was wrong or at least inaccurate of their assessment all these decades, and

2) we have to rely on authorities “to share more honestly what we now know” in order to see the rest of the story on epidemiological fact?

 

Hmmm, sounds like you are starting to understand the mistrust that many have in science and the government...

I agree with you, especially when it comes to the government response. I think the government could gain the public's trust better if it made honest statements such as:

(1) Since the pandemic began, we have learned more about Covid-19 and how it spreads. We now know that our efforts need to focus on masking and avoiding indoor gatherings, not on sanitizing surfaces.

(2) We now know that outdoor transmission is rare and occurs only with prolonged close interaction for 15 or more minutes (receptions, and so on). You cannot catch Covid-19 simply by walking past someone (rarely if ever).

(3) Once you are vaccinated, you cannot transmit to others, but you will need to continue limiting people who enter your house, and insist they remain masked if there are any unvaccinated members of your household. Also, to make sure that unvaccinated people stay masked, we will still need to wear masks when out in public, even if vaccinated (when indoors or in close contact with others for prolonged periods).

 

The science and our knowledge have progressed. The messages need to reflect this. It's ridiculous the way people are wearing masks going up and down the Runyon Canyon trail, even when jogging past others.

[Guest]

I agree with you, especially when it comes to the government response. I think the government could gain the public's trust better if it made honest statements such as:

(1) Since the pandemic began, we have learned more about Covid-19 and how it spreads. We now know that our efforts need to focus on masking and avoiding indoor gatherings, not on sanitizing surfaces.

(2) We now know that outdoor transmission is rare and occurs only with prolonged close interaction for 15 or more minutes (receptions, and so on). You cannot catch Covid-19 simply by walking past someone (rarely if ever).

(3) Once you are vaccinated, you cannot transmit to others, but you will need to continue limiting people who enter your house, and insist they remain masked if there are any unvaccinated members of your household. Also, to make sure that unvaccinated people stay masked, we will still need to wear masks when out in public, even if vaccinated (when indoors or in close contact with others for prolonged periods).

 

The science and our knowledge have progressed. The messages need to reflect this. It's ridiculous the way people are wearing masks going up and down the Runyon Canyon trail, even when jogging past others.

I agree. In my area’s equivalent of “Runyon Canyon trail” it’s odd to see the masked folks. Even my regular hiking buddy wears a mask.

 

But while I agree with you in your overall observations, my point is to underscore that “evolving” insight into things like the role of fomites, overturning beliefs previously accepted by science as fact, are the very things that cause people to be skeptical of other assertions of fact around things like the safety of vaccines. Everyone out there doesn’t have the benefit of @Unicorn to keep them current on science

[Guest]

I was taught during my medical training that colds were often spread through "fomites" or surfaces/touching. If there has been any good to come out of this Covid-19 pandemic I think it can be that we learned that transmission is through air droplet transmission, not fomites. The science is out there, and I wish the authorities would share more honestly what we now know. All of this "sanitizing" we now know is of little to no benefit.

 

I recalled being encouraged by this post. You are well informed on this issue and I have casual understanding at best. Given that, I’m perplexed by this recent article that would imply that surface to body transmission occurs. I’d value your thoughts/insights - noting of course that “The Sun” is not the most factual/credible source in my view:

 

https://www.the-sun.com/news/2376949/glasses-wearers-less-likely-catch-covid/

[Guest]

I recalled being encouraged by this post. You are well informed on this issue and I have casual understanding at best. Given that, I’m perplexed by this recent article that would imply that surface to body transmission occurs. I’d value your thoughts/insights - noting of course that “The Sun” is not the most factual/credible source in my view:

 

https://www.the-sun.com/news/2376949/glasses-wearers-less-likely-catch-covid/

Woah, woah, woah. The article says:

“The risk of Covid-19 was two to three times less in the spectacles-wearing population than the population not using spectacles.

 

“This might be due to less touching and rubbing of eyes while wearing spectacles.

 

“The protective role of spectacles was found statistically significant.“ The report noted that glasses do not protect the eyes as much as goggles but still provide some degree of protection.

 

It also found poorer and less educated people are more likely to catch Covid because they are less likely to wear face masks properly and “use spectacles less than educated persons”.

That's a huge jump to conclude that because people who wear glasses are less likely to get Covid-19, the reason is that they rub their eyes less frequently and are therefore less susceptible to fomite transmission!?? That "article" also proposes another possibility: people who wear glasses tend to be smarter, and therefore less likely to do stupid stuff like those idiots I see in the supermarket who wear the mask over only their mouths and not their noses. And, of course, another simple possibility is that the glasses simply reduce droplet transmission to the mucous membranes of the eyes, since we now know that Covid-19 is almost always spread through droplet transmission. Another possibility hinted in the article is that people who wear glasses tend to be better off, so less likely to live with larger number of people in the household, which obviously multiplies the risk. And less likely that the household members work in a meat processing plant, etc.

...

But while I agree with you in your overall observations, my point is to underscore that “evolving” insight into things like the role of fomites, overturning beliefs previously accepted by science as fact, are the very things that cause people to be skeptical of other assertions of fact around things like the safety of vaccines...

The prior warnings about what was believed to be a source of transmission, fomites, wasn't necessarily presented as "fact," but rather as the best knowledge available at the time. The fact that science helps us refute previously-held beliefs shows a strength of science, not a weakness. Being able to reject previously-held theories as knowledge evolves demonstrates the rigorousness of science. It was a major discovery that Newtonian physics, while a close approximation, was not how things actually work. At least scientific theories are based on the best known knowledge of the time. That's much better than a belief based on superstition, what one wants to believe, or mere observation/case reports.

[Guest]

From today's New York Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/08/health/coronavirus-hygiene-cleaning-surfaces.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20210409&instance_id=29033&nl=the-morning&regi_id=121639701&segment_id=55256&te=1&user_id=98e698d7e00b3c0348927193de9ffeee

"When the coronavirus began to spread in the United States last spring, many experts warned of the danger posed by surfaces. Researchers reported that the virus could survive for days on plastic or stainless steel, and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention advised that if someone touched one of these contaminated surfaces — and then touched their eyes, nose or mouth — they could become infected.

 

Americans responded in kind, wiping down groceries, quarantining mail and clearing drugstore shelves of Clorox wipes. Facebook closed two of its offices for a “deep cleaning.” New York’s Metropolitan Transportation Authority began disinfecting subway cars every night.

 

But the era of “hygiene theater” may have come to an unofficial end this week, when the C.D.C. updated its surface cleaning guidelines and noted that the risk of contracting the virus from touching a contaminated surface was less than 1 in 10,000.

...

The admission is long overdue, scientists say.

 

“Finally,” said Linsey Marr, an expert on airborne viruses at Virginia Tech. “We’ve known this for a long time and yet people are still focusing so much on surface cleaning.” She added, “There’s really no evidence that anyone has ever gotten Covid-19 by touching a contaminated surface.”"

[EZEtoGRU]

“Finally,” said Linsey Marr, an expert on airborne viruses at Virginia Tech. “We’ve known this for a long time and yet people are still focusing so much on surface cleaning.” She added, “There’s really no evidence that anyone has ever gotten Covid-19 by touching a contaminated surface.”"

I doubt your average person today is "still focusing so much on surface cleaning" to prevent COVID transmission. That was certainly the case earlier on in the pandemic, but it seems to have decreased more recently. As someone else mentioned above, I do appreciate the general cleanliness of things. I also echo the comments earlier about having too many Lysol Wipes now. I have a five year supply now .

[+ JEC]

I was taught during my medical training that colds were often spread through "fomites" or surfaces/touching. If there has been any good to come out of this Covid-19 pandemic I think it can be that we learned that transmission is through air droplet transmission, not fomites. The science is out there, and I wish the authorities would share more honestly what we now know. All of this "sanitizing" we now know is of little to no benefit.

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00251-4

 

"Hundreds of studies of COVID-19 transmission have been published since the pandemic began, yet there is thought to be only one that reports transmission through a contaminated surface, by what it termed the snot–oral route. According to the report, a person with COVID-19 in China blew his nose with his hand and then pressed a button in his apartment building elevator. A second resident in the building then touched the same button and flossed with a toothpick immediately after, thereby transferring the virus from button to mouth12. But without genome sequences of the viruses infecting each person, transmission through another unknown person couldn’t be ruled out."

...

"Armed with a year’s worth of data about coronavirus cases, researchers say one fact is clear. It’s people, not surfaces, that should be the main cause for concern. Evidence from superspreading events, where numerous people are infected at once, usually in a crowded indoor space, clearly point to airborne transmission, says Marr. “You have to make up some really convoluted scenarios in order to explain superspreading events with contaminated surfaces,” she says."

What about all the germs and bacteria they find on commonly touched surfaces like doorknobs, TV remotes, escalator handrails etc?

[Guest]

What about all the germs and bacteria they find on commonly touched surfaces like doorknobs, TV remotes, escalator handrails etc?

Well, Norovirus can definitely spread that way. Probably Salmonella also. But this is not a source for Covid-19. It's sad that the CDC took so long to acknowledge this, many months after the science was out. This has resulted in needless expense, useless efforts, and public anxiety. In some cases, the misinformation has increased the risk of spread. For example, last week "Diego" and I traveled to Big Bend National Park in southern Texas. Because of the misinformation, the National Park Service shut off all drinking fountains. This forced all visitors to have to go indoors to buy bottled water, which increased the risk of Covid-19 transmission. Although some people would say "Well, at least keeping things clean didn't hurt anything," this is not really the case.

[Mjonis]

I think they call surface stuff formites? What I find amazing is that almost everywhere here is still sanitizing. Can't put your groceries on the conveyor belt until they've "sanitized". Can't handle/touch this unless it's been sanitized.

 

Up until the CDC just recently updated their site, it USED to say the risk was "low" but then would go on to state something like:

to date, there have been no documented cases of COVID spread via surface transmission (which, IMO, puts the risk far lower than 1/10,000 as the time it was well over 20 million people infected, so go figure).

 

I think there was also a study (I should save these things when I find them) where they swabbed PPE gear from hospital workers who worked with COVID patients (ie, the amount of COVID is going to be much higher on that vs. say your average doorknob/whatever). While they could detect the presence of the virus, they were unable to culture it in lab (ie: The amount was too small to do anything).

 

Personally I think the risk is far lower than what they state (real-world) but we won't know for sure. Remember when HIV/AIDS first came out? Everyone was panicking because it could be detected on surfaces hours later, but then much later, in reality, discovered it wasn't enough to infect you.

 

But the safety theater continues at least here in NY. Still gotta wait 10 minutes between haircuts at salons for the disinfection routine, etc. NONE of our grocery stores will take back anything you bought (due to COVID). I still have to sanitize my hands (don't get me started on that--the CDC guidance doesn't jive with the actual scientific studies where you need a 70% alcohol based solution and even then you have to use it for like 5 minutes).

 

But I will wear my mask (we'll all be wearing it well into next year I Think and beyond) and 2nd Pfizer shot was completed last Friday.