EFFEMINATE VS MASCULINE

[Monarchy79]

Great points made in this interesting discussion. I think that a lot of times, people tend to define one’s irritation with “effeminate”, “catty”, extreme behavior as homophobic, but thanks to @gymowner’s comment stating that women don’t even act this way, it finally daunted in me what I would consider it: TOXIC FEMININITY.

 

For me, I realized this once I was in my gym locker room and two gay guys were talking in the language that was just discussed. A lot of “yass bitch”, “gurl”, and other things.

 

And when I think about it, it is somewhat toxic, and here’s why:

1.) just as toxic masculinity places a smear over the true characteristics of what makes a man alluring and respectable, toxic femininity almost disrespects women, and turns the image of femininity into a caricature, almost a mockery.

 

2.) it’s behaviors doesn’t develop or enhance any charater traits at all, just as toxic masculinity doesn’t.

 

3.) toxic femininity creates unrealistic standards of behaviors, and perpetuates stereotypes of gay men, just as toxic masculinity goes for straight men.

 

4.) As a lifestyle where we are supposed to be welcoming and inclusive, toxic femininity is actually polarizing, as it baffles, turns off and offends so many people. It actually works in direct opposition with what society is supposed to be moving towards with LGBTQ Acceptance.

 

5.) It never seems natural or authentic. I truly believe that guys who behave to this extreme aren’t behaving “organically”. It’s entirely too much.

 

With all of that said, I will say that I am very attracted to a “masculine dandy”, the type of guys who has organically masculine and feminine traits, and can attract and bewilder both men and women of all. sexual orientations. Kinda hard to describe what I mean, but it does exist.

[MrMattBig]

Thanks @Monarchy79 that's a perfect explanation.

The whole "yass" "bitch" "gurl" thing can definitely be toxic as you described it at times. I don't think it is in most cases, but I think it is important to recognize that it can be, and important to realize this amongst those who talk this way as well. I still don't feel one should need to be repulsed by it

[Gymowner]

So what I gain from all these discussions is that when one group screams about the rights of one group demanded upon society to be accepted, then creates the same biggogtry but in an opposite fashion one thing becomes clear to me. We all need to understand our faults, our innate biggotries and do one thing... just get along with each other and stop trying so damn hard!

[Gymowner]

And matt... thank you for all the discussion. Truely appreciate it. I think my reason for feeling repulsed is for monarchy's reason above. He put out all those points so perfectly. The toxic femininity as he stated in point #4 above does set us back and is not organic in nature. Many on here stated they were somewhat feminine or not very masculine growing up. That's organic. This over the top flamboyance that is created in our culture does nothing for anyone but keeps us as PEOPLE from making headway.... hence why now that I think about it is the reason I used the word.

[Gymowner]

Is there such a thing as overly-masculinaphobia?

WOW He is so ADORABLE

With all of that said, I will say that I am very attracted to a “masculine dandy”, the type of guys who has organically masculine and feminine traits, and can attract and bewilder both men and women of all. sexual orientations. Kinda hard to describe what I mean, but it does exist.

 

And monarchy being Male is nothing more than having a penis and ballsack hanging between ones legs. Now being a man... a real MAN is what you are describing above. Ever watch a true stud show emotion or cry? My God it rattles a womans ovaries inside here for damns sake! Makes my pussy wet and I dont even have one! Lol

[Monarchy79]

Thanks @Monarchy79 that's a perfect explanation.

The whole "yass" "bitch" "gurl" thing can definitely be toxic as you described it at times. I don't think it is in most cases, but I think it is important to recognize that it can be, and important to realize this amongst those who talk this way as well. I still don't feel one should need to be repulsed by it

 

Thanks ??,

 

I can agree with that. ☺️

[TruthBTold]

Interesting thread. Masculine men will always be in style. Masculinity is far from a construct. If you watch young boys who grow up to be in certain professions you can see the mannerisms forming from an early age without very little input. Alot of mothers will tell you to their own horrors of boysI liking to collect bugs get dirty throw things be loud fight over toys. Come back in a decade and a half those guys are usually football players marines construction workers etc. Alot of porn does show alot of affected masculinity but it is undeniable in real life.

 

Also as far as women go at the heart of things they like alpha males. Many times they will fight it but watch how women act when a firefighter or cop enters the room or a group of marines. I saw three young sheriffs get onto the train once wearing that sheriffs bucket hat and i looked around and saw all the girls whispering to their friends about these greek gods. Women settle often with men that they know are practical as fathers as husbands and not what makes their adrenaline go through the roof.

 

Feminine men deserve their rights and freedoms but they just dont come to the forefront of my brain at all. It is what it is.

 

I agree with you. When alpha males enter a room women may be attracted to them and bring them home to fuck. However these are not the ones generally they marry or carry on long relationships with. I am reminded of the movie Trainwreck.

[Ghadd]

I've always had an issue with "a real man". It implies that some things a man can do will make them less of a man.

 

"Be a man!" as if men can't be vulnerable. "You throw like a girl", as if at birth, all men are draft candidates for the MLB (which acronym I just had to Google...). "Stop being a pussy", as if being a human with female body parts makes you less than. To me, if you're a man, you're automatically a "real man".

 

I like what I consider 'normal'. I don't want a guy with a lot of feminine mannerisms. On the other hand I am not interested in an overly macho guy whose every other word is a 'cuss-word' and who is overly abrasive.

 

Gman

That's what I prefer as well. I have no patience for people who put on a show, who are a character of themselves. Because so few of those super macho dudes or super effeminate guys act like that when they're alone. I prefer guys who act the same, whether they're alone or with different groups of friends.

Edited June 21, 2019 by Ghadd

[studchaser]

I agree with you. When alpha males enter a room women may be attracted to them and bring them home to fuck. However these are not the ones generally they marry or carry on long relationships with. I am reminded of the movie Trainwreck.

 

 

If a woman cheats on her husband it will often be with the guy who rides the motorcycle or hot young contractor. Lets not forget all those teachers willing to risk it over underaged football players. I feel many female teachers lust after young athletes but are disciplined enough to not pursue it.

[Monarchy79]

I agree with you. When alpha males enter a room women may be attracted to them and bring them home to fuck. However these are not the ones generally they marry or carry on long relationships with. I am reminded of the movie Trainwreck.

 

A true alpha male isn’t “macho”. I think that’s where things get murky. A true alpha male is relaxed and comfortable in his masculinity and doesn’t flaunt it or over exert it. He is confident in who he is.

 

In my opinion any man who is aggressively “macho”, and tried entirely too hard to prove his worth as a “man”, is just as annoying as an overly gem guy who has exaggerated mannerisms, behaviors and ways of speaking. Both are “too much”.

[+ WilliamM]

@Walker1 kids, meaning several. Why?

 

I could see the huge benefits of a two parent family when my dad died when I was 16 and my brother 10. I am absolutely not critical of most people who live differently.

 

But, elderly actors and hosts (Anthony Quinn, Tony Randall, Larry King) who marry again late in Ife and talk so proudly about their very young children, are an exception. What are they thinking?

[+ WilliamM]

If a woman cheats on her husband it will often be with the guy who rides the motorcycle or hot young contractor. Lets not forget all those teachers willing to risk it over underaged football players. I feel many female teachers lust after young athletes but are disciplined enough to not pursue it.

 

"All these teachers willing to risk it over underage football players. I feel many teachers are disciplined enough not to pursue it."

 

Gee thanks for noting.

 

My fifth grade teacher in the 1950s was not one. Her husband committed suicide leaving two young children and a bad reputation because her husband did not pay family debts. My teacher received a master's, became a principal and died in 2018 at age 101. She did have enough time to meet football players.

 

I did not realize all this until a few weeks. She never remarried. And I could mostly recognize her recent photo - happy about the photo. Her name: Mrs T

Edited June 21, 2019 by WilliamM

[+ Gar1eth]

All theseteachers? You mean one of a hundred? My fifth grade teacher in the 1950s was one. Her husband committed suicide leaving two young children and a bad reputation. My teacher received a master's, became a principal and died in 2018 at age 101

 

I'm sorry. I didn't understand. Your teacher was one what?

 

Gman

[+ WilliamM]

I'm sorry. I didn't understand. Your teacher was one what?

 

Gman

 

 

Thank you very much @Gar1eth. I rewrote the posting. I hope this one was a little better. Kind thing to do, Gar1eth

[Gymowner]

I can agree with that. ☺️

A true alpha male isn’t “macho”. I think that’s where things get murky. A true alpha male is relaxed and comfortable in his masculinity and doesn’t flaunt it or over exert it. He is confident in who he is.

 

In my opinion any man who is aggressively “macho”, and tried entirely too hard to prove his worth as a “man”, is just as annoying as an overly gem guy who has exaggerated mannerisms, behaviors and ways of speaking. Both are “too much”.

 

monarchy you really know how to hit the nail on the head

[Monarchy79]

I can agree with that. ☺️

 

 

monarchy you really know how to hit the nail on the head

 

Thanks,

 

I think it’s because I’m an extremely pensive, analytical person, who rarely has the opportunity to outwardly Express my thought on such topics. ☺️☺️

[studchaser]

"All these teachers willing to risk it over underage football players. I feel many teachers are disciplined enough not to pursue it."

 

Gee thanks for noting.

 

My fifth grade teacher in the 1950s was not one. Her husband committed suicide leaving two young children and a bad reputation because her husband did not pay family debts. My teacher received a master's, became a principal and died in 2018 at age 101. She did have enough time to meet football players.

 

I did not realize all this until a few weeks. She never remarried. And I could mostly recognize her recent photo - happy about the photo. Her name: Mrs T

 

Rip Mrs t

[studchaser]

A true alpha male isn’t “macho”. I think that’s where things get murky. A true alpha male is relaxed and comfortable in his masculinity and doesn’t flaunt it or over exert it. He is confident in who he is.

 

In my opinion any man who is aggressively “macho”, and tried entirely too hard to prove his worth as a “man”, is just as annoying as an overly gem guy who has exaggerated mannerisms, behaviors and ways of speaking. Both are “too much”.

 

I tend to see these exaggerstions amongst gay men tbh. True alpha males have long had their masculine status affirmed n reinforced n is often a non issue unless someone challenges them on it.

[Gymowner]

but remember... are we talking about the natural state of men being masculine or are we talking about hyper,self motivated masculinity? that...even for women i believe is a turn off.

 

i was watching a baseball game last night. i think it was l.a. vs toronto. now THAT was natural masculinity at its finest. just a bunch of men competing with each other being...men!!

[+ oldNbusted]

If nothing else, at least this thread serves to show that internalized homophobia is a real thing...

[+ quoththeraven]

If homosexuality is considered a deviation from "normal" masculinity, then it makes sense to either exaggerate the difference (camp, "swishiness", use of feminized terms, etc.) or to embrace hypermasculinity (Tom of Finland, uber muscled types). It's also possible to ignore heteronormative standards altogether and just be natural, whatever that is and wherever it lands on the current "masculine/feminine" spectrum.

 

In the former case, homosexuality becomes defined in terms of its relationship to heterosexual norms, which is why it gets labeled "internalized homophobia." That may also be why some of this behavior is identified as artificial; however, the embrace of buffness and steroids is functionally equally artificial but isn't perceived that way because it fits widely-held stereotypes and beliefs as to what is "naturally masculine."

 

Also people who want their preferences respected should expect pushback when they express them as absolutes that don't respect other people's preferences.

[+ quoththeraven]

but remember... are we talking about the natural state of men being masculine or are we talking about hyper,self motivated masculinity? that...even for women i believe is a turn off.

 

i was watching a baseball game last night. i think it was l.a. vs toronto. now THAT was natural masculinity at its finest. just a bunch of men competing with each other being...men!!

Wow. So what would a bunch of women playing softball be? Men?

 

What about a bunch of average Joes playing baseball? Are they not men, or lesser men than professional athletes?

 

I don't think the word "masculinity" can bear the weight you're giving it.

[Gymowner]

"Wow. So what would a bunch of women playing softball be? Men?" um... lesbians

 

oh for christs sakes!!! stop over analyzing everything.

[studchaser]

Wow. So what would a bunch of women playing softball be? Men?

 

What about a bunch of average Joes playing baseball? Are they not men, or lesser men than professional athletes?

 

I don't think the word "masculinity" can bear the weight you're giving it.

 

Its really not that deep. Deep inside we all know what masculinity is when we strip away the psuedo science and faux analytics. Many will fight it and rage against it but will never change it so best to just acceot it or live outside and apart from it.

[+ José Soplanucas]

Yes sweetie, it has always been natural.

 

By the way, I do not want the thread to be sent to the Politics forum... so I am just going to say that discarding science when it does not fit with our own narrative, sounds very very familiar.