solacesoul

3 hours ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

the assumption seems to be the reviewer is from the US, although nothing says so & there are no details re: reviewers profile. 

You seem to have missed some clues that the review is most likely from the US. 

— His only other Google Review is a business establishment in the US with a 202 area code, a car detailing service.

— His usage of the terms “black” and “queer”. Arguably, this is less indicative than the first, but these are more Western-embraced terms than not — the latter being far more embraced in younger than older generations.

But would it matter if he were not from the USA, and were, say, from London, for example? 

5 hours ago, Lucky said:

@solacesoul Did you respond to the Google review or post one of your own there? I can see that you didn't give it a thumbs down!

As I mentioned above, I am not going to discount his own experience (or his own perception of it).

I’m also neither going to lie and state there is no racially motivated preference in any business establishment in Brazil (or anywhere else, for that matter), nor going to exaggerate with the reverse and state that any and every perceived slight or disrespect is racially motivated as well. 

I’ve also never directly responded to another’s review of a business establishment that’s not mine, and don’t understand why I should start now.

But if that’s your thing — have at it. 

4 months ago, an “R Gueirra” posted this really brutal review of Point 202 (inexplicably labeled as “Termas e Academia Ibiza”) at Google Maps in the reviews section:

”Black Travelers and Black Queer people AVOID; this is a racist establishment that is hostile and abhorrent towards black foreigners. The amount of open racism towards people inside this establishment is a disgrace; given that these establishments are marketed to be inclusive to all. White customers are allowed to enter and pass and treated totally different. They assume in Rio that all blacks are uneducated, poor, and servants for white men. The behavior from the reception was unprofessional and 100% racially motivated. Blacks are only good in this establishment if they are commodities being sold to white men. The owner would never communicate with black customers and looks down on them. I hope that the management educates themselves on the definition of racism and discrimination. It’s a reason why it’s hardly any black customers inside. Blacks should avoid this establishment if they care anything about their life.”

Far be it from me to discount anyone else’s negative experience. He must have left bad enough of a taste in his mouth to feel it necessary to post and warn others. But as a regular, longtime (decade-plus) black / Afro-Latino traveler and patron of these “South of The Border” establishments, including this one, I’ll just say that this reviewer’s experience at Point 202 has not been my or my traveling friends’ experience.

Racism and colorism and classism do exist in Rio, Brazil, and all parts South of The USA, and often manifests itself ways differently than are seen in the US. I don’t know what this poster experienced or witnessed, but most likely it was not much different from what he would encounter at the other clubs and saunas like Club 117. The owner Junior, like many Brazilians who grew up in or around poverty, makes initial sweeping class assumptions about color and race, but most traveling black and brown North Americans and Europeans would be far removed from those class assumptions from Brazilians. To put it bluntly, that traveler of color with the American “blue passport” and a 5:1 BRL:USD currency conversion is going to be treated a lot more kindly than the kid from the favela in Jacarepaguá.

So… “hostile to black foreigners”? Seems like a reach, to me.

And sometimes, as I have semi-regularly witnessed, some customers / clients (of ALL races, colors, nationalities) can be obnoxious, entitled, arseholes. Not to say this is what happened here, but let’s not act like “the customer is always right” (as was mistakenly the motto of 20th Century Western retail, pre-Karen). 

10 hours ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

hint - you might want to tone it down before you get banned here too

Hilarity ensues when a verbose poster across multiple platforms — without one ounce of self-awareness — runs to a moderator to report his detractors, and winds up getting himself suspended from that very same platform.

What’s bizarre is the poster seems to believe that no one can figure out he’s the same poster under different screen names across different platforms.

That being said, some very fine people in the past have been suspended (or chased away) from that platform. 

18 hours ago, SirBillybob said:

… but bear in mind the capricious potential for the unhinged rage of any inadequately vetted hook-up. 

On the other hand, and not to “victim blame”, there are some really obnoxious clients who probably do deserve to have their asses kicked. There is one gringo tourist clown who sits at the sauna bar and lures garotos into doing a lot of public displays of affection / practical public sex acts by promising them a programa in a suite if he can feel a “connection”. Then, after practically getting his rocks off and having each garoto one-by-one go through humiliating intimacy with him in public, he sends them on their way without even as much as a tip for their time, saying, “I’ll think about it” or “maybe later”.

I doubt many of the more obnoxious visitors understand that South / Latin America — and especially Brazil — has its own set of rules when it comes to meting out justice, and the machismo culture calls for avenging shame. I wouldn’t want to get on the wrong side of some of these streetwise, favela-connected boys. 

2 hours ago, kingsley88 said:

Are the lockers at Rio saunas a safe place to put your valuables (smartphone and cash)? Or is it advised not to bring smartphone and just bring enough cash when going there?

Club 117 and Point 202 have cameras and attentive locker room attendants. Locker room thefts there have been pretty rare. But you should always exercise caution. Just bring enough cash and one card for your sauna expenses for the night. As for your phone, it would be fine in a locked locker as well and also on your person, as long as you don’t get it wet or go in the showers / steam rooms with it.

Honestly, you should be more concerned about carrying those items / cash outside on the streets than inside the saunas. Other than this (possible, unconfirmed) incident reported in the OP, the saunas are (relatively) safe and secure. 

As far as I or my local sources in Rio can tell, nothing like this occurred at either 117 or 202 in Rio in May. If this did occur, it most likely happened at a sauna in another Brazilian city.

BTW, there’s a shit ton of crimey / violent things that go down related to saunas, ads, GPs, massagistas and/or gogo boys in Brazil that never make the media rounds. Most of it goes unreported to law enforcement (because frankly, almost everyone knows they can be pretty useless and the others are not interested in going public), so most problems like this are handled internally. 

Example: over the last year or so, a popular gogo boy in Rio was robbing and attacking sauna and ad clients, targeting gay tourists who either would be too embarrassed or too frightened to come forward, or who wouldn’t be around town long enough to go through a lengthy process of filing charges. He did this so much that he was banned at both major saunas. But no news or announcements were ever made. 

1 hour ago, José Soplanucas said:

He used to be hot! 

The actor-client might have been considered “hot” by most as well. The comments sections of various news reporting sites are filled with questions from readers about why a handsome, successful guy like him would *need* to hire a male prostitute — these commenters not understanding at all the dynamics of transactional sex. Clients run the gamut in physical appearance and attractiveness. Some pay for ease, for discretion, for variety. Some prefer to pay just so that the sex partner will go away afterwards. Some are into sex partners that are not in their social circles and thus, are not easily obtained.

In any event, not every client *looks* like they have to pay for it. 

More on the suspected murderer here at O Globo. Use the Google Translate function in the Chrome web browser to translate these articles into English.

4 hours ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

we all process information differently & all have different levels of risk tolerance.

Information includes our own first-person experience - and I’ve seen way too much in Rio to think crime/danger is simply a “narrative” or wildly overblown press accounts.  If anything - the rampant tourist crime & crime related to sex trade is underreported.  Any frequent visitor Rio knows this is true. 

For all those reasons Rio is permanently off my list when other more safe options are available. 

Adult, sentient human beings should be able to gather all forms of information — sometimes this info is competing and contrary, some info will be shiny, happy and positive, and others will be gloomy, dark and negative  — and use all these points of information to make their their own informed decisions.

Anything else ventures dangerously into propaganda territory.

17 hours ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

I’ve been to Rio many times & love the city.  I wouldn’t go now tho.  When I get the Brasil itch, I’ll go to São Paulo - totally different ballgame..

If we had to make a comparative analysis where most USAmericans might understand, São Paulo is more on par with New York City crime stats, while Rio would be more of a Chicago — more violent crimes and gang-related activity uncontrolled by police.

That being said, in Rio, one is far less likely to be the victim of a violent crime in one of the Zona Sul neighborhoods (Ipanema, Leblon, Copacabana, Lagoa, Gávea, Botafogo, Flamengo, Jardim Botânico, etc.), but this doesn’t take into account the many non-violent petty crimes in the tourist-rich areas. These crimes are common in São Paulo as well.

Every person who resides in or stays longterm in one of the major cities in Brazil has been a victim of at least a petty theft. Those who have not been are the part of the lucky few. We are talking all ages, races, shapes and sizes. Especially in Rio (but São Paulo is certainly not immune), it’s not a matter of if — it’s when. 

14 hours ago, SouthOfTheBorder said:

This last tragedy involved a foreign tourist.  The previous one was a garoto murdering a Carioca - who knew what to look for & even he wasn’t safe.  The “Boa Noite Cinderella” home robberies in November 2022 was a gang of garotos robbing & drugging Cariocas.  
The point is that if Cariocas are getting murdered, drugged & robbed - then foreign tourists are even easier/more vulnerable targets.

Don’t forget about the Chilean tourist that was drugged (boa noite Cinderela), robbed and murdered in Lapa… in May.

One Chilean tourist dead, another injured after they were drugged at a bar in Brazil

WWW.DAILYMAIL.CO.UK

---

Ronald Tejeda, of Chile, was drugged, severely beaten and found dumped in a ditch in Rio de...

10 hours ago, José Soplanucas said:

Are not all cities dangerous? 

3 Men Charged in Drugging Murder and Robberies at NYC Gay Bars - The New York Times

WWW.NYTIMES.COM

---

The men were arraigned after their arrests in connection to a string of attacks at the bars last year.

 

I think you’re being a bit facetious here. We aren’t discussing New York City, but even if we were, all cities aren’t equal. Although crime is on the rise in NYC, it is still objectively far less dangerous per-capita than Rio de Janeiro, or than any major city in Brazil.

Statistically, there’s simply no comparison between Rio and New York City when it comes to the crime levels and safety. Objectively, Rio has double the crime and is less safe.

In spite of its many issues, I absolutely love Rio and all of Brazil, but please… don’t blow smoke up anyone’s behind about it. 

https://www.numbeo.com/crime/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Brazil&city1=Rio+de+Janeiro&country2=United+States&city2=New+York%2C+NY

17 hours ago, José Soplanucas said:

But @Luckyis right. We do not know what happened. We are making assumptions and creating a story that fits our favorite narrative.

This is what we DO know:

Two men checked into the same room of a love hotel (hourly motels, used mostly for sexual affairs / hookups and possibly drug use) in the Lapa district of Rio, an area popular for adult partying but also considered dangerous and sketchy.

One of those men was a European tourist.

The other man was a Carioca with a recent-past (not current) history of working as both a sauna garoto.

A few weeks ago, a Chilean tourist was found murdered on the streets of Lapa, the victim of robbery and the “boa noite cinderela” scopamine knockout drug. His assailants were women believed to have met the victim while partying in Lapa.

In January, a beloved gay sauna worker (a bartender, not a garoto) was found murdered in a Lapa hotel. The assailant, caught on camera but not yet apprehended, is widely believed to be a garoto or hustler that the victim met on the street or on online (it has been ruled out that the assailant worked at a sauna).

It doesn’t take much to connect the dots. The two didn’t check in to a love hotel in Lapa as part of a deep-sea diving expedition. 

Those who reside in Rio / Brazil or stay here for extended periods are not the ones saying, “let’s wait until we get the full story”. You are not likely to get a full story. Those who reside in Rio / Brazil or stay here for extended periods are the first ones to tell you / warn you about the many dangers lurking in this beautiful city / country. One of the biggest dangers is meeting strange men or women for sex hookups in uncontrolled environments.

I’m not about telling grown men what to do. We are all supposed to be adults here. But you should be aware that Rio and other parts of Brazil can be very dangerous, and certain activities require a heightened level of vigilance / caution. Going to love hotels in Rio for sex (or for recreational drugs) with a newly met or an unknown companion is now on that list (if it wasn’t already).
 

4 hours ago, Lucky said:

Granted, the guy was arrested for a killing, but who knows what really happened when there are no other witnesses. The deceased could have overdosed or the sex just got too kinky The arrested would have been pretty stupid to kill the guy knowing he was on video at check-in.

Well, apparently there are plenty of stupid and desperate killers getting caught on camera these days.  As intimated in the title of this thread, In Rio, just this past January, another garoto murdered a beloved sauna employee at a love motel in Lapa — and his entrance and exit was caught on hotel cameras as well.

4 hours ago, Strafe13 said:

Such a horrible outcome.  The portion of the article you posted doesn’t say this, so how do you know the assailant was a garoto?  Are you using that term to mean any male sex worker or street walker, or do you mean that he was one of the sex workers from the gay saunas?

I know that in the recent past, the assailant Wallace de Oliveira worked as both a gogo boy and a sauna boy in Rio. I am not familiar with how the two met.

Video of the two checking into the hotel:

Man arrested in Rio suspected of killing European tourist

Ilia Kakhaberidze, 31, was found dead in a hotel room in the Lapa neighborhood (image below)


05/31/2023 at 10:15 am | Updated 05/31/2023 at 10:34 am

The Military Police of Rio de Janeiro arrested a 42-year-old man suspected of killing a tourist from Georgia, in a hotel in Lapa, in the center of the capital.

According to the PM, Wallace de Oliveira was arrested on Tuesday (30), in the act, with the help of witnesses. With the suspect, the police seized documents and cards of the victim.

Wallace de Oliveira has nine passages through the police.

Ilia Kakhaberidze, 31, was found dead in a hotel room in the Lapa neighborhood. His body was tied up and had signs of violence.

According to witnesses, the tourist arrived at the hotel accompanied by the suspect. 

Four hours later, Wallace left the scene. Employees suspected the attitude, went to the room and found Ilia dead.

His body was taken to the Legal Medical Institute (IML) in Rio and the case is being investigated by the Homicide Police Station of the Capital as robbery (robbery followed by death).

Ilia Kakhaberidze was a ship engineering officer and worked on board.

To CNN , the Honorary Consul of Georgia in São Paulo, Carmen Ruette, informed that the Consulate is aware of what happened to the citizen of the European country and that the Embassy of Georgia in Brasilia is acting in the case.

For its part, the Embassy of Georgia in Brazil informed CNN that it is aware of what happened and has already made contact with the victim's relatives.
Georgia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs said it was doing what it could to help transport the body to its home country.

I‘m sure most will refuse to work in Brazil once they know how much they can get in nyc.

As I stated above, it’s very difficult for Brazilian men with no ”legitimate” non-sex related permanent job in Brazil to get a visa for legal entry to the USA.

But in Brazil the sauna cover fee and the cubicle rental often exceed $40 diminishing the bargain rate of the guy. Especially if you're only having sex once a visit. For most Europeans and many in the US it's not worth the airfare. Plus the top Brazilians often go to the US and Europe. They're often half the guys at Thermas and Patagonya.

 

It's all closed now anyway.

So much of this is inaccurate and misleading.

The highest sauna entry fee in Brazil is 70 reais on a certain night. The most expensive suite rate (which happens to be at a different sauna) in Brazil is 55 reais per 30-40 minutes (the time for 1 sauna programa). Even if you combined the highest sauna price with the most expensive suite fee from two different Brazilian saunas, that’s only 125 reais — which, as of today, equals only $22.55 USD. That’s NOT $40 USD and not even close. Not even with New Math.

The only way to cross $40 USD is to add the separate costs of the programa / session that the client pays the garoto / sex worker individually — which would be about 100 reais and up ($18 USD). Or if you’re not adding in the costs for the garoto, then the math could only get to $40 USD with entrance + suite if you overstay your suite stay by an extra 90 minutes.

By comparison, at Sauna Thermas in Barcelona, the entry fee is 18 EUR and the most expensive room is 15 EUR a session, so that’s a total of 33 Euros for entry and suite. That’s $36 USD, $14 more than the highest cost in Brazil. Just entry to Thermas alone would be $19.65 USD— only $3 USD less than the costs of entry AND a suite at the most expensive sauna night in Brazil.

If you toss in the cost of a sauna session at Sauna Thermas in Barcelona, paid directly to the sex worker — about 50 euros or 55 USD — it’s STILL about twice as expensive as a sauna programa in Brazil, at 100 (minimum) to 150 reais (more common) — which is $18 to $27 USD.

As for the specious claim that “the top Brazilians often go to the US and Europe”, this also is untrue. Only a few are able to travel to Europe (usually on the dime of a paying client or club), and with current stricter immigration policies in the USA (especially for unemployed BrazilIan men in a certain age demographic), even fewer go to the USA. The overwhelming majority of Brazilian garotos do not travel to Europe or the USA, and that has very little to do with looks or build (no matter what that preference of look or build is). The truth is the number of Brazilian sauna garotos who both travel to either Europe or the USA AND who still work in the sex trade when they are there is very small — it tends to be the same ones. Just because you see some “top BrazilIans” at two saunas in Europe, that doesn’t mean that’s most of them in Brazil — a country of 210 million people!

I think some of this is cultural. If a young macho guy there is offered a favour (eg cigarette, share of a pizza slice) from a friend I would not be surprised not witnessing a verbal expression of gratitude. The gratitude may be connective, the acknowledgement of a bond that exempts the formality, and the implicit intention of the receiver to wish the giver well.

I get what you might be trying to convey here, but it is not really an accurate depiction of how modern young brasileiros interact with and respond to each other and others they are familiar with. Also, it comes across as a distant academic assessment from someone who hasn’t spent much time interacting with or observing BrazilIan men in their own element (i.e., away from turistas and gringos, and not in a hotel room or a suite in a sauna).

They do say “thank you” to other BrazilIans and others whom they are socially familiar with ALL THE TIME. To suggest that young brasileiros do not commonly say “thank you” is “cultural” would be straight-up offensive to BrazilIans and is veering into xenophobia territory — in addition to it just being a false observation / conclusion.

Casual tourists and non-locals wouldn’t be expected to know this, but modern brasileiros don’t often use “obrigado” with each other. They use “valeu” or the often shortened sound of “bri-ga “ which is shortened from “brigado” which was shortened from “obrigado” (the “verbal” thanks that you post about in your cigarette or pizza slice “favour” example above). And on the “connective” side that you also bring up, they have handshakes (which vary by region) that they only do with those brasileiros with whom they are already familiar and friendly —- not very likely to be an older sauna tourist client who is not a regular conversationalist in BrazilIan Portuguese and not “in the mix”.

I also have to add here that although these are things you may hear, see, or pick up on, they are very casual and informal between familiar brasileiros — and as an outsider, you (yes, that means you, reader) should never be so presumptuous or familiar to say or do them with other brasileiros.

I’m not trying to be mean or troll you here, just being direct, hoping that readers will better understand this than academic treatises.

A good policy is to give from the heart without any expectations. As a wise woman told me years ago, “expectations create disappointments”. A corollary to that policy is to give only as much as you can afford to lose.

If it brings you joy to send $150 USD to 6 different BrazilIan garotos de programa through Western Union — knowing that doing so won’t make your relationship with any of them any closer or any more intimate or special than the ones they have with clients that do not — and it doesn’t cause you any financial pain or discomfort, then do it to your heart’s content.

that part is odd. It would imply that the constitution (not just the law) mentions image rights.

Since the constitution is very new, it is possible that it does, but that would be a very unusual Constitution.

This is the part where reading the link provided and the citations in the footnotes would be most helpful. The information is there.

The Wiki article linked states: “Article 5, sections V and X, of the Brazilian Constitution states that the privacy, private life, honour and image of persons are inviolable, and the right to compensation for property or moral damages to the image is ensured.”

This is supported by a footnotes citation, which links to The BrazilIan Constitution. This is from The Constitution of Brazil (English translation), found here (see the boldface): http://www.servat.unibe.ch/icl/br00000_.html

Title II Fundamental Rights and Guarantee

Chapter I Individual and Collective Rights and Duties

Article 5 [Equality]

(0) All persons are equal before the law, without any distinction whatsoever, and Brazilians and foreigners resident in Brazil are assured of inviolability of the right of life, liberty, equality, security, and property, on the following terms:

I. men and women have equal rights and duties under this Constitution;

II. no one is obliged to do or not to do something other than by virtue of law;

III. no one is submitted to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment;

IV. the expression of thought is free, and anonymity is forbidden;

V. the right to answer is ensured, in proportion to the offense, besides compensation for property or moral damages to the image;”

Helpful advice to Brazil travelers, as well as those living or staying there for extended periods: Please be careful NOT to yield to any temptation of taking photos of and / or posting photos of guys you see or meet in Brazil without their advance consent.

Posting, publishing or taking photos of someone without that person’s permission is not only highly unethical, but also it is a crime in Brazil — that is enforced and is punishable by fines and jail time.

The law in Brazil on this subject is one of the strictest laws in the world that criminalizes, with monetary and civil penalty, posting or taking or publishing an image of a private individual without their express consent. The only 3 exceptions are for (1) public figures performing their public functions or activities (not in private life), (2) people who are present in a public space or participating in a public event (unless the depicted person is the main focus of or singled out in the picture), and (3) people related to news events of public interest (only if necessary and reasonably justified and if the reported facts are true). [ NOTE: none of these 3 exceptions would apply to escorts, sex workers, sauna workers, Grindr profiles and/or guys whose photos that you may find on social media and think they are so hot that you feel tempted to post their photos on the internet without their permission. ]

Even if the photo was previously taken, or was posted at another place, like that individual’s Facebook, Instagram or WhatsApp account, if you do NOT have prior authorization to post that person’s photo in Brazil, do NOT even think about posting it.

It doesn’t matter if the person is nude, shirtless or fully clothed. It does not even matter if your intentions were pure and innocent. If the Brazilian subject of the photo did not authorize you to post or publish the photo, then don’t do it or else you risk being criminally and civilly liable in Brazil.

However, if the unauthorized photo is published in a derogatory or sexual manner or at a site related to sex, sex work, or pornography (like a site such as this one, for example), that makes the likelihood of conviction even easier and the penalty even harsher.

“The generally accepted doctrine, legalized by case law, specifically recognizes the image right as an autonomous personality right. This means, the right to one’s own image is protected as such. Just taking someone's photo without their permission (in private or public space) can violate their image right and gives them a right to compensation for moral damage. Of course, copying, reproducing, transfering, distributing, publishing or commercializing such a picture are illegal and anti-constitutional acts. Simultaneous prejudice to honour or reputation is not necessary. If the image is commercially exploited or used in a derogatory way, this will only aggrave the situation, but it is not a requirement for infraction complaint.”

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Country_specific_consent_requirements