Fat Gay Men Aren’t Welcomed At Pride (?)

[nynakedtop]

The issue of body image has been discussed here a few times, particularly as it relates to disclosure in advance of meeting, and so on.

 

But this piece I encountered this morning, although not very "deep", shares an interesting lens on the issue of being out and about in our communities as one who might not totally comply with received notions of what it means to be "hot".

 

I submit we all struggle with body image issues... but this makes for a quick read thought piece:

 

http://www.gaypopbuzz.com/gay-fat-pride-lgbt-skipping/

[JBrian72]

The issue of body image has been discussed here a few times, particularly as it relates to disclosure in advance of meeting, and so on.

 

But this piece I encountered this morning, although not very "deep", shares an interesting lens on the issue of being out and about in our communities as one who might not totally comply with received notions of what it means to be "hot".

 

I submit we all struggle with body image issues... but this makes for a quick read thought piece:

 

http://www.gaypopbuzz.com/gay-fat-pride-lgbt-skipping/

Lots to think about there, especially if you substitute the word "old" for "fat," a lot of the same prejudices apply. There's no shortage of age-shaming in our community!

 

As far as fat-shaming goes, I know it exists, but I also know that there is a body type for every "group," bears, otters, cubs, monkeys (I think I just made that up). What troubles me is that it seems like there is little intermingling among the groups. We tend to be stuck in our section whether we like it or not.

 

If I'm philosophical about this, I guess all I can do is be accepting of all types and not take it personally when I'm not accepted in return.

[+ OliverSaks]

In the same breath he talks about fat shaming, he does this:

 

"And we can’t seem to fetishize enough the muscular guys or hairy “lumber-daddies” that we see parading around the street fairs.

 

How many times have I heard people whisper: “That guy is so hot – woof!” as one of these mindless wonders walks by."

 

Equating muscledaddy with mindless - seems pretty prejudiced to me

 

"Let’s not leave out the skinny guys (twinks). These types of builds are also celebrated, like they are some kind of lesser God – but Gods none the less.

 

Never mind so many of them are smoking up crystal meth like it’s going out of style!"

So now he also calls out people who use drugs and implies certain types use (and I'm sure plenty of these crystal meth users would classify as addicted in a medical/psych sense) - screams judgmental to me, but it's okay in this article because addicts are subhuman...

(Obviously being sarcastic, just so it comes across as clear)

 

Talk about kicking someone who is already down.

 

He makes valid points about gay culture, but he could try not being judge and hypocritical in his own way

[nynakedtop]

 

He makes valid points about gay culture, but he could try not being judge and hypocritical in his own way

 

Good point, and I think, if anything, it is illustrative of just how toxic the situation has become. To get a bit "meta" on the piece, it does show how even targets of discrimination can, themselves, internalize the process of seeking out their own persons to victimize!

[Bearofdistinction]

OH YOU POOR BABY 205????

 

I was 205 at BIRTH --- My Mother was in Labor so long they finally moved her up to Management!!!!!

 

And if some skinny - or gym bitch rained on my Pride Parade -- Id take My Big Ol Bear Body and BODY Slam that lil Schmucky thing into the nearest wall == PLANT A BIG OL KISS ON HIM and Say

 

You are Welcome Baby --- Because of People Like Me - Who Survived the Plague and Kept the Fight Alive

 

--- You Have PREP today so that you can be the Skankiest whore on the Planet!!!

 

AND IF YOU ARE LUCKY ENOUGH AND SMART ENOUGH -- You will live to be as old and as Cute and as WEALTHY as I AM!!!

 

Now Here is a Dollar - - Go Buy this Weeks Groceries! BITCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Cause -- NOBOBY Rains on My PRIDE!!!

 

And I mean all of the above in the most loving way possible!!

[MartyB]

OH YOU POOR BABY 205????

 

I was 205 at BIRTH --- My Mother was in Labor so long they finally moved her up to Management!!!!!

 

And if some skinny - or gym bitch rained on my Pride Parade -- Id take My Big Ol Bear Body and BODY Slam that lil Schmucky thing into the nearest wall == PLANT A BIG OL KISS ON HIM and Say

 

You are Welcome Baby --- Because of People Like Me - Who Survived the Plague and Kept the Fight Alive

 

--- You Have PREP today so that you can be the Skankiest whore on the Planet!!!

 

AND IF YOU ARE LUCKY ENOUGH AND SMART ENOUGH -- You will live to be as old and as Cute and as WEALTHY as I AM!!!

 

Now Here is a Dollar - - Go Buy this Weeks Groceries! BITCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Cause -- NOBOBY Rains on My PRIDE!!!

 

And I mean all of the above in the most loving way possible!!

Damn that was well said and so on target. Cheers.

[+ Eric Hassan]

I feel sad that there is so much focus on what people look like and an (often) unquestioned association between looks and personality. I feel like there's often this idea that you get one set of qualities that starts with your looks - like you're pretty, so you must be vapid and dumb - or, you're fat and hairy, so you must be desperate and unfuckable. We completely undermine the unity of our community and the foundation of "pride" when we buy into these things - or when we complain about them. Bitching about how your group is unwelcome or unloved or unacceptable to others only further serves to separate and reinforces the us vs. them attitude. I am not claiming there are not shitty things that people do and say to others, and I hope that I always acknowlege my own privelage inside my assessments, but I'm getting sick of all this complaining.

 

I think it's important to remember that most of what we assess about a person's appearance is bullshit. First of all, the "reality" of beauty standards is only real because enough people agree about it, but nowhere is it written down as law that skinny people are better than fat people or that the "right" kind of body has visiable abs and little to no hair. It's perfectly acceptable to disagree with the stupid shit other people believe. Secondly, a lot of our appearance is up to genetics - height, hair color/pattern, body type, eye color, etc. Lastly, most of what we see of people is dead - skin, hair, nails - all dead. Dead dead dead. And yet, somehow, we think it makes sense to decide someone is better than someone else - more acceptable, more fuckable, more valid, smarter, dumber, whatever - based on genetics and dead cells. Absolute fucking bullshit.

 

But the complaining ... oh my fuck, the complaining. All of these articles about how awful people feel because of this or that - that's just people agreeing with something that doesn't make them happy (western beauty standards) and then complaining about it. That seems pretty fucking insane to me. Go ahead and complain, but admit that you drank the kool-aid, too.

 

Instead of complaining, make a choice. Make it daily. Or more often, if you need to. Choose either to believe shit about bodies, compare and judge yourself and others, and suffer when things don't seem fair or don't go your way or someone throws some shade at you. Or choose to acknowledge that we humans have a million ways to believe we are separate and that you'd rather find the ways we are unified and the same, and then look for proof of that unity. We will always find what we are looking for and the world is always going to be a reflection of what we believe about ourselves and others. I can't imagine why someone would choose to complain when you could choose to seek out love.

[bigvalboy]

I feel sad that there is so much focus on what people look like and an (often) unquestioned association between looks and personality. I feel like there's often this idea that you get one set of qualities that starts with your looks - like you're pretty, so you must be vapid and dumb - or, you're fat and hairy, so you must be desperate and unfuckable. We completely undermine the unity of our community and the foundation of "pride" when we buy into these things - or when we complain about them. Bitching about how your group is unwelcome or unloved or unacceptable to others only further serves to separate and reinforces the us vs. them attitude. I am not claiming there are not shitty things that people do and say to others, and I hope that I always acknowlege my own privelage inside my assessments, but I'm getting sick of all this complaining.

 

I think it's important to remember that most of what we assess about a person's appearance is bullshit. First of all, the "reality" of beauty standards is only real because enough people agree about it, but nowhere is it written down as law that skinny people are better than fat people or that the "right" kind of body has visiable abs and little to no hair. It's perfectly acceptable to disagree with the stupid shit other people believe. Secondly, a lot of our appearance is up to genetics - height, hair color/pattern, body type, eye color, etc. Lastly, most of what we see of people is dead - skin, hair, nails - all dead. Dead dead dead. And yet, somehow, we think it makes sense to decide someone is better than someone else - more acceptable, more fuckable, more valid, smarter, dumber, whatever - based on genetics and dead cells. Absolute fucking bullshit.

 

But the complaining ... oh my fuck, the complaining. All of these articles about how awful people feel because of this or that - that's just people agreeing with something that doesn't make them happy (western beauty standards) and then complaining about it. That seems pretty fucking insane to me. Go ahead and complain, but admit that you drank the kool-aid, too.

 

Instead of complaining, make a choice. Make it daily. Or more often, if you need to. Choose either to believe shit about bodies, compare and judge yourself and others, and suffer when things don't seem fair or don't go your way or someone throws some shade at you. Or choose to acknowledge that we humans have a million ways to believe we are separate and that you'd rather find the ways we are unified and the same, and then look for proof of that unity. We will always find what we are looking for and the world is always going to be a reflection of what we believe about ourselves and others. I can't imagine why someone would choose to complain when you could choose to seek out love.

 

Two thumbs up....

[MassageDrew]

OH YOU POOR BABY 205????

 

I was 205 at BIRTH --- My Mother was in Labor so long they finally moved her up to Management!!!!!

 

And if some skinny - or gym bitch rained on my Pride Parade -- Id take My Big Ol Bear Body and BODY Slam that lil Schmucky thing into the nearest wall == PLANT A BIG OL KISS ON HIM and Say

 

You are Welcome Baby --- Because of People Like Me - Who Survived the Plague and Kept the Fight Alive

 

--- You Have PREP today so that you can be the Skankiest whore on the Planet!!!

 

AND IF YOU ARE LUCKY ENOUGH AND SMART ENOUGH -- You will live to be as old and as Cute and as WEALTHY as I AM!!!

 

Now Here is a Dollar - - Go Buy this Weeks Groceries! BITCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Cause -- NOBOBY Rains on My PRIDE!!!

 

And I mean all of the above in the most loving way possible!!

 

You're funny but right though. These skinny twinks act like they're the gift to mankind. Behind closed doors, they're looking for a daddy to take care of them. It takes one to know one I guess and I have to admit that I was one of these skinny m-effers. Still slim but wiser now, more mature, and with more money but I don't give to the undeserving bitches. LOL

[MikeBiDude]

I sure prefer our forum comments posted here vs. the comments posted online below that article.

[rvwnsd]

At the risk of sounding like an armchair psychologist, I think the article says more about the author's self-hatred than it does about the gay community as a whole. Certainly, body shaming exists. However, when someone paints muscular older men as "mindless" "lumber-daddies" and skinny guys as "crystal meth smokers" I have to tune him out. Until very recently when I put on weight, I was always very, very thin despite constantly eating. Attempts at packing on muscle failed - my body type (and extremely high metabolism) wasn't having it. Aside from trying pot when I was in my 30's, I have never even thought about using an illegal drug or a legal drug for recreational purposes. I also have asthma, so smoking anything is out of the question (which is why I haven't smoked pot but for those three or four times). Nice to know this character would have painted me as a crystal meth smoker had he seen me on the street.

[Deadlift1]

The men commenting on that article would quickly change their tune if the article was about "fem" shaming. Is it different from the passive aggressive grammar and etiquette nazis who take a cheap shot whenever they post a comment on here. It's not until you unplug from the mainstream gay world that you find yourself and truly realize how great it is to be gay.

[MikeBiDude]

At the risk of sounding like an armchair psychologist, I think the article says more about the author's self-hatred than it does about the gay community as a whole. Certainly, body shaming exists. However, when someone paints muscular older men as "mindless" "lumber-daddies" and skinny guys as "crystal meth smokers" I have to tune him out. Until very recently when I put on weight, I was always very, very thin despite constantly eating. Attempts at packing on muscle failed - my body type (and extremely high metabolism) wasn't having it. Aside from trying pot when I was in my 30's, I have never even thought about using an illegal drug or a legal drug for recreational purposes. I also have asthma, so smoking anything is out of the question (which is why I haven't smoked pot but for those three or four times). Nice to know this character would have painted me as a crystal meth smoker had he seen me on the street.

Great point here.

 

I used to be quite obese, clinically "morbidly". Lost over a 1/3 of my body weight, at a healthy BMI now. In good shape, not a gym rat, I have some loose skin that at my age will never be exercised away - plastic surgery would be necessary and I'm not all that interested in that route.

 

But re: the article's author yeah, he's got some issues. What I have (in my sixth decade of life) that he doesn't is a very strong confidence in myself, my look, my attitude, myself. Am I every twink's cup of tea? Nope. Do I attract & meet lots of guys in the 20-28ish range. Yup!!

[LaffingBear]

I read the linked article, and followed the link within it to the article about being fat-shamed on a cruise.

 

Nothing that happened in either article surprised me... although the cruise shaming incident was so bold, had it happened to me, my lifelong count of times I threw a fist in anger might have gone from 3 to 4.

 

I dont know if the gay community is worse than other population segments. As I've posted elsewhere, discrimination against fat people is the last sanctioned bigotry in America.

 

I've been hurrying down a SOMA street towards a bar and had people hurl insults to me. I've had the same thing happen in a suburban shopping center parking lot. I went through a job interview process, encouraged through several phone calls, flown cross-country, then declined... followed up by a discreet call from the recruiter to let me know it was due to my weight. Furthermore, the recruiter, having never met me, chose not to work with me thereafter.

 

As I've cycled through weight losses and gains throughout my life, job search success, interpersonal success, etc. all correlate strongly with lower weight.

 

I was directed to the bear community when I started socializing in San Francisco. Simply profiled and relegated, as if I should only be interested in bears. Not in response to some expressed interest, such a leather bar or drag. Friends here in SF have told the same thing happened to them based on looks, Asians were told to go the (offensibly) labelled rice bars.

 

I once walked into Powerhouse Bar in SF, and a couple of guys started chanting "theres uncle joe, he's a-movin' kinda slow...." from Petticoat Junction. Later, in the same bar (I was accompanying a young buffed guy) someone actually hissed at me that "this ain't the Lone Star."

 

Almost every bear I know is coupled with or plays only with other bears. They all claim that they are naturally attracted to big hairy men. I'm sure that's true for some... but consider all elements of the complicated process of human attraction: humans are impressionable, tastes change based on repeated exposure. It certainly isn't a popular viewpoint, but I've no doubt that societal pressures and repeated exposure are a factor in relationships.

 

If you want some obvious evidence of societal attitudes... visit a telemarketing or collection agency call center - and just consider how the employees match up with mainstream standards for attactiveness. Or, find one of those horribly unhealthy all-you-can-eat buffets on a weeknight.... I'd bet that a significant segment of the diners are fat and dining alone.

 

I'd also bet that many people will react to my observations with "Oh, come on! Take a walk and eat a fuckin' salad."

[JayCeeKy]

It's the ultimate irony of Pride: celebrating "diversity and community." I attribute all types of shaming to the immaturity of the shamers who don't deserve one moment of my time or consideration. I would prefer to direct my time and energy towards people who have the maturity and intelligence to make my life happier and more productive. And when I get too obsessed with what others are saying about me, I recall the words of Eleanor Roosevelt:

 

“You wouldn't worry so much about what others think of you if you realized how seldom they do.”

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

The gay community has inner-discriminated for a long, long time. This is nothing new.

 

I think the secret to life is ignoring assholes, finding a supportive circle of friends and always continuing to move forward. We all have prejudice in terms of guys we find attractive (or not), but as a society what we've now forgotten is how to keep our opinions to ourselves when it might really hurt someone. The internet didn't help in that respect.

 

I've always found it sad that for a community which has worked so hard at equality, we routinely eat our own.

[BasketBaller]

I think it's important to remember that most of what we assess about a person's appearance is bullshit. First of all, the "reality" of beauty standards is only real because enough people agree about it, but nowhere is it written down as law that skinny people are better than fat people or that the "right" kind of body has visible abs and little to no hair.

Bravo. And let me add that we can find ways to self-shame that others wouldn't believe. I was a terribly skinny kid, skin and bones, and I hated it. People, friends and even family, would good-naturedly tease me, thinking it wouldn't matter because most people want to be thinner, but it hurt. I tried and tried to bulk up, to build muscle, thinking girls only like broad-shouldered guys with big arms, but while I got fit, I was still basically skinny. But when I began to seriously date girls, I found that most of them didn't pay attention to what I was built like-- as long as my hygiene and grooming were on point. So I gradually came to accept the way genetics formed me, although I wistfully continued to wish for broad shoulders. (And still do, truth to tell, lol.)

 

Now, I have no idea how any of this would have played out in a gay milieu. Some of my body-image and ideals were probably colored by my un-admitted attraction to other boys, and the fact that girls didn't judge me helped me get past it. I don't know if seriously skinny gay kids (or adults) suffer teasing or disdain. But I do know that I got no sympathy, the few times I expressed anything were always met with some variation of, "You're lucky, I wish I could lose weight."

[Epigonos]

As far as I'm concerned Eric Hassan said it all.

I just might add that the only person who can, in reality, shame us is ourselves. Maybe teaching high school for thirty plus years toughened me up but I just don't understand why I should give a fuck what somebody who doesn't known me and isn't important in my life thinks of me -- fuck the stupid son-of-a-bitch.

[nynakedtop]

As far as I'm concerned Eric Hassan said it all.

I just might add that the only person who can, in reality, shame us is ourselves. Maybe teaching high school for thirty plus years toughened me up but I just don't understand why should I give a fuck what somebody who doesn't known and isn't important in my life thinks of me -- fuck the stupid son-of-a-bitch.

i agree with you, but -- the problem is that it is only natural for us to care about what other people think, even when we know better.

 

not to personalize this, but -- as a gay kid new to NYC i was definitely amongst those who looked down upon those less fit, less young, less "pretty"... it just seemed like a normal reaction for me to have at the time.

 

now, with age and with an expanding waist-line (disclaimer for moment of un-abashed self promotion here -- still keeping it at 33"!), when i see manifestations of body/age fascism i "get" where it is coming from but i am able to more critically understand it. it does not hurt me when i am too old for a restricted door policy at a sex club, but i sure do take note of it!

[Epigonos]

i agree with you, but -- the problem is that it is only natural for us to care about what other people think, even when we know better.

I really don't think it is, or should be, natural for us to care about what other people (people who don't know us) think. The only thing that counts is what we think of ourselves. Unfortunately if we don't think much of ourselves we are then highly susceptible to the opinions of others which only reinforce our own misapprehensions.

[caliguy]

when i see manifestations of body/age fascism i "get" where it is coming from but i am able to more critically understand it. it does not hurt me when i am too old for a restricted door policy at a sex club, but i sure do take note of it!

I take note but not in the same way. Not really into sex parties anymore but the thought of some twink sex party is absolutely repulsive to me. Restrict me all you want.

[caliguy]

I'll bet he practices his own discrimination. Like why the fuck do you care what the "muscle gods" and twinks think of you? Get over your obsession with them and look at guys in your own category and you won't care. In other words, grow the fuck up or just stay home. Works for me.

[+ purplekow]

I'll bet he practices his own discrimination. Like why the fuck do you care what the "muscle gods" and twinks think of you? Get over your obsession with them and look at guys in your own category and you won't care. In other words, grow the fuck up buttercup. Works for me.

 

I do not really have a category, or at least I try not to place myself or the people to whom I am attracted into categories except as good people, caring people, intelligent people. Granted, when there is a man in a speedo at the pool, the body is the first thing I notice. It is there on display and attraction is attraction. If that great body is inhabited by a smug, self righteous, self involved person, no amount of outer beauty can make up for that. I have never been a great beauty nor have I had a body that men idolize, but more than a few have gotten down on their knees, perhaps not in worship but hell, it felt as good as adoration.

[MikeBiDude]

look at guys in your own category and you won't care

But....why does he have to be in a category and be attracted to just that category?

[+ purplekow]

"I'll take Muscle Dudes for 200 Alex"

"I am sorry, you cannot select that category. You can get Bears for 200 or Whales for 200"

"Alex, can I take Schlubs for 200"

"Let me check, yeah Schlubs for 200 is okay, but your buzzer is on delay until all the Schlubs have passed on it. You want to wait or go back to Bears or Whales."

"Alex, what about you, can I take Alex for 200?"

"Hmmmm....okay, but only for an hour. And it will be 300"