He-Man Car Talk Thread

[+ Gar1eth]

I have a new for me car. It's a 2010 Nissan Versa Hatchback. I thought the engine sounded a bit 'rough'. So I had it checked out by a mechanic service that makes house calls. I had him do a diagnostic service. I had had the car checked out when I bought it. I was hoping this 'roughness' was just my imagination.

 

So the mechanic looks the car over. There's some type of mantle covering most of the spark plugs. But the mechanic was able to get to one of them. He looked at it and said I needed new plugs. He showed the one to me, and while I don't know anything, the gap did look large. He measured the gap. I think the gap is supposed to be 0.4. He measured this Plug at 0.6. He told me because of the difficulty of removing the mantle-the job would take around 2 hours.

 

He quoted me a price of about $330. But I get to take the cost of the diagnostic visit off that-so that was $75. And I had a 10% discount thru an organization I'm a member of. The final bill including parts is about $237. He's coming later today. Before I decided to have the mobile mechanics do the service, I called Firestone. I told him my car and asked if he could give me an estimate over the phone. They must have a database of cars. The Firestone guy quoted me a price of about $420-parts, labor, and he mentioned they flush something out while they are doing the change. I was going to call Sears, Meineke, Midas, Goodyear, etc. But I decided (probably foolishly) that the other chains would most likely be similar to Firestone's price. And having the mechanic come to me is really more convenient than taking the car into the shop and either waiting there for it or having to taxi or Uber back home from and back to the shop.

 

I'm just surprised about that mantle. I wonder if it's really a necessary part of the car-not that I'm removing it. But if the engine had been built more the way they used to be, and if I were mechanical at all, I could have changed the spark plugs myself. (I didn't even know you don't gap spark plugs anymore).

 

Any mechanical mavens out there in Forum land?

 

Gman

[+ not2rowdy]

I’m not an auto mechanic. Just someone that knows enough to be dangerous about a variety of things without mastering any of them. Without the tech manuals I don’t know if the plug gap is too much or not. But a 50pct larger gap than specified could certainly cause roughness, hard starting and reduced performance.

 

With today’s shop costs changing out the plugs for $237 does not sound unreasonable. The mechanic hopefully also plugged in his magic tester OBDC Scanner and read the error codes your car computer has.

 

But YouTube can be your friend. t’s very possible it’s not a major DIY project. Not sure but I think 2006-2012 are all the same generation.

 

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=2010+nissan+versa+spark+plug+replacement

[bigvalboy]

Finding a good mechanic is like finding a good doctor. Once you have one, never let them go.

 

Google Nissan Versa spark plug replacement and unfortunately Gman you will have your answer. Most likely your mechanic is correct about the difficulty in reaching the plugs on your model. One is reachable, but the rest seem buried under a series of engine coverings. The price he quoted seems in line with what has to be done. Now whether or not that will solve the rough engine feel is another matter.

 

And yes, most manufactures discourage owners from doing any maintenance or repairs. They want you to have to go to the dealer, where they can charge inflated prices and worse, scare you into making an unnecessary repair. Hiding and burying engine components, that should be changed more frequently, deep in the engine compartment or buried under endless coverings, is a common tactic. I have tried on my car on several occasions, only to find out that to remove something, either requires a special tool, that can be only purchased through the dealer, or there is some secret to getting at the part.

 

As an example, recently I tried changing the fog lamps on my car. They are, seemingly easily accessible and are integrated into the lower bumper. Laying on the ground and looking up, the opening and flap to access them is well within reach...however LOL...the clip to open the flap can only be accessed by putting the car on a lift. Meaning you have to go to a mechanic just to change the bulbs. The same was with the head lamp. One I could get to, but the other one was blocked by a relay box that was only a fraction of an inch too far forward, meaning...once again, the car had to go on a lift, and the head lamp on the left side, was only accessible from underneath the car...all bullshit, and it's a game.

 

Anyway..good luck. You might be OK on this one, and I hope the new plugs solve the problem.

[+ Gar1eth]

I have a 2002 Toyota Camry LX which I don't get to see often because it spends its time in Dallas (long story-don't ask).

 

For two years in a row-I was only in Dallas once during the year. The first year-no one had started the car in my absence. So of course the battery was dead. Unfortunately, as I found out after it had to be jumped several times, the battery would no longer keep a charge, so I had to replace. Same scenario occurred the second year-but I took it to NTB to get a new battery after the first jump rather than see if it would hold a charge. Well the jump worked to get me to NTB (National Tire and Battery) wasn't long before their closing time- but the battery was again dead after stopping the car and parking. NTB brought out their trusty OBDC scanner. But the battery was so drained there was nothing in the electrical system-and the OBDC couldn't get a reading. But they didn't tell me this. They told me I needed a new alternator. But having been thru the same thing the year before, I asked whether they were sure. They finally said no because they couldn't get a reading from their scanner-but from the symptoms-and they told me they were about to close. If they replaced the battery and once the electrical system was back up, it showed it was the alternator, I'd have to leave it overnight to be fixed. Having been thru this the year before, I said, 'Let's take a chance and just replace the battery (which was still under warranty from the year before).' They replaced the battery-everything worked perfectly.......

 

Until about a week or two later when I stopped the car to ask for some directions. I got back in the car-it was totally dead when I tried to restart it. I'm not sure I even heard a clicking sound. I get it checked out. They tell me it's the alternator and the starter motor-I'm just crying. Thank gosh I didn't have any beer in front of me because my tears would have ruined it. I leave the car at NTB. It's supposed to be fixed by midday the following day. But the time it's supposed to be ready by keeps getting later and later. They tell me they installed an alternator which by the book supposedly fit my car. But it was a tight fit. They had trouble placing it. They even called Toyota to see if there was a trick to it. Toyota said no. And then when they finally muscled it in, they were tightening some bolt or something, and they broke off the piece of the alternator where the bolt was. They then went and got another alternator -and the same thing happened. They then got another distributor made by a different manufacturer, and it slid right in. I thought it odd that a part that was by specification supposed to fit my car in reality didn't.

 

Gman

[+ Gar1eth]

Finding a good mechanic is like finding a good doctor. Once you have one, never let them go.

 

Google Nissan Versa spark plug replacement and unfortunately Gman you will have your answer. Most likely your mechanic is correct about the difficulty in reaching the plugs on your model. One is reachable, but the rest seem buried under a series of engine coverings. The price he quoted seems in line with what has to be done. Now whether or not that will solve the rough engine feel is another matter.

 

I should have thought to look on the internet about that although the mechanic showed me the mantle. So I didn't really doubt him. Thanks for checking it out for me, BVB. I'm hoping it is just the spark plugs and that the problem is not the coil packs connected to the spark plugs.

 

Gman

 

PS I almost sound as if I know what I'm taking about, don't I? My knowledge of cars pretty much ended when I was 16 with me learning to stick pencils into the choke of my 1967 Mustang because it would stick closed on cold mornings. My Dad did teach me to change a tire when I was about 19 though. I've used that skill several times in my life although these days I hate bending down and will usually just call an auto service to come do it.

 

Gman

[+ sync]

Back in my days of tinkering I could raise the hood and everything was identifiable...today when I raise the hood, I recognize nothing.

[AdamSmith]

My knowledge of cars pretty much ended when I was 16 with me learning to stick pencils into the choke of my 1967 Mustang because it would stick closed on cold mornings.

My 1967 Muskrat required that very same treatment!

 

Also one time in Connecticut, some water got into the gas tank in winter and the gas line froze shut. Leading me to discover that wondrous elixir essential for keeping old cars in New England running during the cold months...

 

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1058/8358/products/12_pack_iso_grande.png?v=1450536890 .

[escortrod]

Shame I'm not there. My family own a garage in Scotland, and I can quite happily rebuild an engine, so I would have been able to help.

 

Spark plug gaps can be altered. They are not strictly fixed. Was there anything else wrong with the spark plugs? Did they have carbon deposits (soot)?

 

It seems that the Nissan service manual requires that the coolant be drained during this job. That is what would be 'flushed' according to the company you called. So far as I can tell this isn't strictly necessary, but it is a good idea to replace coolant every two or three years, as it does break down over time. Chances are Nissan have discovered that their spark plugs have a similar service life to coolant in that engine.

 

The intake manifold for your engine is above the spark plugs, and this is what has to be removed for access. It is a vital part of the engine. Admittedly this isn't fantastic packaging on Nissan's part, but a home mechanic can easily remove and reattach this part, it just makes the job take longer.

[+ poolboy48220]

12 years ago a good friend helped me buy a used car (something he does almost as a hobby, he knows cars back and forth) and introduced me to his mechanic, that he'd known for a good 10 years earlier than that. I haven't bought a new car since and am continually thankful that I know this mechanic.

 

Not to mention that the mechanic is besotted with my dog. That never hurts. :-)

[AdamSmith]

Back in my days of tinkering I could raise the hood and everything was identifiable...today when I raise the hood, I recognize nothing.

Indeed! It's almost like...

 

http://www.collativelearning.com/PICS%20FOR%20WEBSITE/stills%204/cell%20ceiling.jpg

 

 

 

In fact GM says the Volt contains about 10 million lines of code...

 

http://www.qsm.com/blog/2015/how-much-software-your-car-1977-toronado-tesla-p85d

 

...a typical passenger aircraft by comparison has only about 1 million.

[escortrod]

Indeed! It's almost like...

 

http://www.collativelearning.com/PICS%20FOR%20WEBSITE/stills%204/cell%20ceiling.jpg

 

 

 

In fact GM says the Volt contains about 10 million lines of code...

 

http://www.qsm.com/blog/2015/how-much-software-your-car-1977-toronado-tesla-p85d

 

...a typical passenger aircraft by comparison has only about 1 million.

I really struggle to believe that. Maybe the critical aircraft systems have that few lines, but given the sophisticated cabin control systems, in-flight entertainment, etc, I would expect a typical commercial passenger aircraft to have a lot more.

[AdamSmith]

I really struggle to believe that. Maybe the critical aircraft systems have that few lines, but given the sophisticated cabin control systems, in-flight entertainment, etc, I would expect a typical commercial passenger aircraft to have a lot more.

Please feel free to check out my post through any evidentiary source.

[escortrod]

Please feel free to check out my post through any evidentiary source.

Unfortunately all I can find online are articles with little referencing. The consensus for the avionics of a Boeing 787 seems to be 6 - 7 million lines of code. That obviously excludes the code for the cabin control systems, complex entertainment systems, as well as an plenty of other secondary systems. I can't find a source for the Volt that specifies whether those lines of code are specific to the drivetrain or include the entire car.

 

http://monetarywatch.com/2017/02/many-millions-lines-code-take/

 

Edit: the article claims that the 787 uses 14m lines of code for all of its flight control systems. Obviously that still excludes a lot of other systems onboard the aircraft.

[escortrod]

More to the point, though, the number of lines of code isn't particularly important to the home mechanic. If a component fails it can generally be replaced without any coding having to be done. Some control modules need to have the car's VIN number coded into them, but there are straightforward software packages that accomplish that. Even more complex tasks aren't that difficult; I retrofitted OEM HID headlamps to my last BMW, which meant replacing the entire headlamp units, the light switch assembly (which is actually a fairly sophisticated computer called the light control module), and adding level sensors on the front and rear suspension, which had to be wired back to a couple of pins on the control module. The light control module then had to be programmed to recognise that HID headlamps had been installed. The last step took thirty seconds.

 

When one lifts the hood of a car the engine may look different to what came 30 years before, but the basic principles are generally the same, if the car isn't an EV, hybrid, range extender, or alternatively fuelled. Fuel injection has replaced carburettors, electronic ignition is in place of distributors, and some additional parts are in evidence. But the basic Otto cycle four stroke engine is still there. And there's a lot less finess required too. Timing doesn't have to be fine tuned, chokes don't need to be fettled, etc.

[+ Charlie]

I used to change tires fairly frequently when I was young, but didn't have a flat tire between 1969 and 2014, when I had a tire blow out on the Interstate in Oregon. I went to get the spare out, and discovered that it was not a real replacement tire at all, but a skinny little thing that was only supposed to get me to a tire store. When I bought my newest car, I learned that I would never have to change a tire myself, because there is no spare!

[escortrod]

I used to change tires fairly frequently when I was young, but didn't have a flat tire between 1969 and 2014, when I had a tire blow out on the Interstate in Oregon. I went to get the spare out, and discovered that it was not a real replacement tire at all, but a skinny little thing that was only supposed to get me to a tire store. When I bought my newest car, I learned that I would never have to change a tire myself, because there is no spare!

The skinny spares are quite a good compromise in my experience. Good enough to get you to the tire store, as you say, and they give you more trunk room, and save weight. Unless your spare tyre is in your regular tyre rotation, it's not a particularly good idea to rely on it any more than this anyway; tyre performance degrades surprisingly quickly as they age.

 

The foam/compressed air cans a lot of manufacturers now supply are pretty decent, but they obviously can't help during a blowout. From a safety perspective runflats are pretty good (especially when it comes to blow-outs), but they add rotational mass at the worst possible point, and impede ride comfort. Personally I'd rather have a skinny spare.

[+ Charlie]

The compressed air canister that is supplied with the car would have been worthless on the Interstate, when the tire completely deconstructed into pieces.

[escortrod]

The compressed air canister that is supplied with the car would have been worthless on the Interstate, when the tire completely deconstructed into pieces.

Right, as I said, they're useless during a blowout. You may want to consider fitting runflats when you next need to replace your tyres if that is a concern.

[AdamSmith]

Unfortunately all I can find online are articles with little referencing. The consensus for the avionics of a Boeing 787 seems to be 6 - 7 million lines of code. That obviously excludes the code for the cabin control systems, complex entertainment systems, as well as an plenty of other secondary systems. I can't find a source for the Volt that specifies whether those lines of code are specific to the drivetrain or include the entire car.

 

http://monetarywatch.com/2017/02/many-millions-lines-code-take/

 

Edit: the article claims that the 787 uses 14m lines of code for all of its flight control systems. Obviously that still excludes a lot of other systems onboard the aircraft.

The article that you linked states:

 

A Boeing 787 has 6.5 million lines behind its avionics and online support systems.

 

I think, as you said above, that is not too precise in distinguishing between software in the flight control, engine management, navigation/autopilot and service/sustainment management systems, which is what I meant, versus software in the passenger-facing systems for entertainment/connectedness etc.

 

That article is vague about its sources. Mine are the engineering directors, engineering IT directors, and engineering discipline leads at Boeing, Airbus, Embraer, and their suppliers and subcontractors whom I consult to in helping them evaluate, select, and business-justify their investments in software for electronics design automation, application lifecycle management, computer-aided engineering, and product lifecycle management.

 

Please give Mulally, Muilenberg, and their competitors and colleagues in Toulouse my regards.

[AdamSmith]

some water got into the gas tank

Recalling, tangentially, a line that my uncle the auto mechanic who was supervisor of the local Post Office garage recalled from his time maintaining Jeeps during WWII. Whenever an engine would sputter or cough, someone was sure to quip:

 

Oh, some gas must have gotten into the trash line.

[+ poolboy48220]

I had a flat in the 2006 Dodge Caravan I'd just bought. I'm glad I had the owner's manual in the car with me, because the spare is underneath the car, between the two front seats, and there's a nut underneath a cap between the seats that fits the tire iron; turn the nut and it lowers the tire, on a cable, to the ground, then drag it out from underneath the car with the tire iron.

 

At least the flat was just a leaky valve that cost me about $2.

[AdamSmith]

I had a flat in the 2006 Dodge Caravan I'd just bought. I'm glad I had the owner's manual in the car with me, because the spare is underneath the car, between the two front seats, and there's a nut underneath a cap between the seats that fits the tire iron; turn the nut and it lowers the tire, on a cable, to the ground, then drag it out from underneath the car with the tire iron.

And THAT was pure Dodge ca. 2006.

 

Even engineers at GM could laugh at Chrysler in that era.

[bigvalboy]

And THAT was pure Dodge ca. 2006.

Even engineers at GM could laugh at Chrysler in that era.

 

And they're still laughing....

[whipped guy]

All this tire talk reminds me that It's time to check the air in my tires... I do have my own compressor as it's impossible to find free air nowadays. Plus I never have the quarters to put in the machine. Off to do that right now while it's on my mind!!!! Incidentally the compressor plugs into the cigarette lighter and has a built in light so theoretically if you need to use it at night it's possible to see what you are doing.

[escortrod]

And THAT was pure Dodge ca. 2006.

 

Even engineers at GM could laugh at Chrysler in that era.

I don't see what's wrong with that. First, it allows for the fantastic flexible seating that the Caravan is known for, but more importantly it means you can access the spare wheel without unloading the vehicle. Imagine you're a soccer mom moving your kid to college. You have folded all of the seats flat and loaded the vehicle with everything your child needs for the academic year. You get a flat tyre on a long, quiet road, and it's raining. If the tyre was in any of its traditional locations you would have to unload the vehicle to access it. The only way that Chrysler could make it more accessible is if they put it on the rear hatch door, but that would be unsightly.