Contempt for clients -- deep, widespread?

[rvwnsd]

Years ago I became good friends with a guy I once hired myself. We talked about this subject. Yes, he disliked a few of his clients and was honest about why. I did not like his attitude, but understood it.

I can see where an escort might not like some of his clients. I don't like everyone I meet, either. However, there's a difference between disliking someone and holding clients (or escorts) in general in contempt.

[tpl]

Do a lot of escorts think of their clients as Losers?

 

There's been a hot energy thread over the past couple weeks regarding a self-described "entertainer" well known for working naked on video who drew a sharp line between his performances and escorting. In defending his reputation, his comments and tone were pretty aggressive, or so it seemed to me. He was probably angry, perhaps rightfully so. Thankfully, that thread calmed down and hopefully will remain at rest.

 

However the entertainer's comments reflected a contempt for men who hire escorts as old or ugly creeps who can't find love or companionship in their lives,. I find myself continuing to think about those comments, wondering how widespread the feeling is among service providers. Every now and again, a comment surfaces here or in reviews about escorts making fun of clients or other disrespectful speech acts. I tend to dismiss those because 1) I don't feel like a loser, and 2) the transactions I've had with escorts seem fair and mutually benefical to me. The last person I met is working to pay for school. I can think of others who have career paths focused on fitness they are supporting. And I've met people who tell me they do what they do for the thrill of it, or the opportunity to travel, or to work with a kind of freedom from the constraints of more traditional work. I can relate to and feel good about supporting all these interests/goals.

 

Now I find myself wondering if in contrast to all these rationales I have for feeling good about this activity, on the other side there's a below the surface reservoir of disrespect more akin to the entertainer' s POV. I actually dreamed about this last night, so its clearly under my skin. Love this forum, so just sharing these thoughts.

Do a lot of escorts think of their clients as Losers?

 

There's been a hot energy thread over the past couple weeks regarding a self-described "entertainer" well known for working naked on video who drew a sharp line between his performances and escorting. In defending his reputation, his comments and tone were pretty aggressive, or so it seemed to me. He was probably angry, perhaps rightfully so. Thankfully, that thread calmed down and hopefully will remain at rest.

 

However the entertainer's comments reflected a contempt for men who hire escorts as old or ugly creeps who can't find love or companionship in their lives,. I find myself continuing to think about those comments, wondering how widespread the feeling is among service providers. Every now and again, a comment surfaces here or in reviews about escorts making fun of clients or other disrespectful speech acts. I tend to dismiss those because 1) I don't feel like a loser, and 2) the transactions I've had with escorts seem fair and mutually benefical to me. The last person I met is working to pay for school. I can think of others who have career paths focused on fitness they are supporting. And I've met people who tell me they do what they do for the thrill of it, or the opportunity to travel, or to work with a kind of freedom from the constraints of more traditional work. I can relate to and feel good about supporting all these interests/goals.

 

Now I find myself wondering if in contrast to all these rationales I have for feeling good about this activity, on the other side there's a below the surface reservoir of disrespect more akin to the entertainer' s POV. I actually dreamed about this last night, so its clearly under my skin. Love this forum, so just sharing these thoughts.

[tpl]

I guess I have been very lucky. Most of the men I have met have been fun and affirming. And I have actually have a great friend who escorts and whom I meet 4 or 5 times a year. We text often and he calls me when he wants. I do the same. And I am an older man, certainly not out of shape, and not a loser at all.

 

 

Do a lot of escorts think of their clients as Losers?

 

There's been a hot energy thread over the past couple weeks regarding a self-described "entertainer" well known for working naked on video who drew a sharp line between his performances and escorting. In defending his reputation, his comments and tone were pretty aggressive, or so it seemed to me. He was probably angry, perhaps rightfully so. Thankfully, that thread calmed down and hopefully will remain at rest.

 

However the entertainer's comments reflected a contempt for men who hire escorts as old or ugly creeps who can't find love or companionship in their lives,. I find myself continuing to think about those comments, wondering how widespread the feeling is among service providers. Every now and again, a comment surfaces here or in reviews about escorts making fun of clients or other disrespectful speech acts. I tend to dismiss those because 1) I don't feel like a loser, and 2) the transactions I've had with escorts seem fair and mutually benefical to me. The last person I met is working to pay for school. I can think of others who have career paths focused on fitness they are supporting. And I've met people who tell me they do what they do for the thrill of it, or the opportunity to travel, or to work with a kind of freedom from the constraints of more traditional work. I can relate to and feel good about supporting all these interests/goals.

 

Now I find myself wondering if in contrast to all these rationales I have for feeling good about this activity, on the other side there's a below the surface reservoir of disrespect more akin to the entertainer' s POV. I actually dreamed about this last night, so its clearly under my skin. Love this forum, so just sharing these thoughts.

[adventurous old guy]

Very well said, @Keith30309!

 

TruHart1

+1 Amen!

[adventurous old guy]

Have read all these comments with deep interest. Really resonate with Keith's point that there's great variation in attitude among we human beings. Greatly appreciate the reminder from BnT to not let attitudes of one, two or a few ruin my day. And really struck by Rex's connection of this topic to the us vs. them psychodrama playing out in our country today. Just walked my dog through the streets of downtown Chicago, absolutely empty. Think everyone's at home, watching the news, incredulous about what's playing out as our leaders crudely categorize humans by a single attribute when we have so much in common to mutually understand.

 

Have also been playing around with this thought about the entertainer's views today: For me, hiring IS entertainment. When the "show" is good its exciting, provocative maybe, creative, a break from run of the mill -- in short, satisfying at multiple levels that gets endorphins flowing and makes me feel particularly alive. Ironic that the entertainer saw such a sharp distinction between the visual entertainment of watching a video and more a physical break from the daily grind. But, again to Keith's point, people are different. It is his body and his decision about how he wants to share it, and we all are entitled to our POV.

 

So I'm going to remind myself that most of the men with which I've had what my best friend calls "brief sharing experiences" have been nice, interesting fun, and willing to share. Hopefully I'll move on to different dreams tonight than the one last night.

 

Peace to all, to all a good night

AOG

[+ Eric Hassan]

+1 on @Keith30309

 

This thread had me thinking of something. I have a very close friend who's almost like a sister to me. We've known each other for nearly a decade and we have talked about EVERYTHING (I taught her how to have anal sex! And she likes it!). She's considerably overweight and has body image issues. For years, she's been telling me that she wants to lose weight and get in shape but has felt intimidated by the process and stymied by her work life, which demands a lot of her time and energy and frequently puts her in situations where there are lots of unhealthy foods, copious amounts of booze, and an image of "participation" to maintain. For years, I've told her that I would happily show her around the gym (she's indicated she would like to learn how to do cardio and lift weights) and she's always refused - telling me she's going to wait until the time is right. Months ago, she committed to doing cardio at the gym and has altered her eating patterns and finally, a couple of weeks ago, she asked me if I would go to the gym with her. Of course, I agreed.

 

Day 1 - 645 in the morning and my butt has traveled from Chelsea to the UES (thanks to the 2nd Ave subway, it's so much easier!) and we're at the gym. I thought she was going to piss herself when we hit the floor. We started with back exercises and I showed her a lat pulldown. Then she looks at me and says "don't judge me, I've never done this before."

 

And here's where I make the relevant point. I told her that I am judging her. I am always judging her. She is always judging me. I am judging everyone I see, everyone I meet, everyone I pass on the street. So is she. So are YOU. And, yeah, we are always judging ourselves. Sometimes we have negative judgments, sometimes we have positive judgments, sometimes they are neutral. The point is - everyone is always judging everyone. It's not real. It doesn't actually mean anything other than our egos have an opinion. I am not saying it's easy to face judgment. I am not saying it's fair. I am not saying it's rational. It is none of these things. But, it does happen and it happens all the time. I think the question to ask ourselves is - how much are we going to care? How much are we going to accept someone else's judgment as fact, as our reality? We can not control another's opinion, judgment, or perspective. Yes, there are escorts who have "contempt" for clients and clients who "dislike" escorts and folks who think we are all "losers."

 

I just think before we start worrying too much about what other people might be thinking, we could probably find some peace of mind in the realization that we are all always judging - ourselves included. Then you can decide how much you want to take any of it personally.

[LADoug1]

In 25+ years of hiring, it is rare that I have been treated with contempt by an escort. But then, I treat them respectfully and professionally. I admire the work they put into their presence and don't treat them as a piece of meat to be used only to get off. I show up on time, I am always clean and I am reasonably presentable. Some of the escorts became friends.

 

On the other hand, one time, I had a chance to participate in a self-help group for male escorts, sponsored by Callan-Lorde community center in NY. It was a real eye-opener for me. There are definitely those escorts who do this because of utter desperation. They see this as the only way to make money and to survive in a place like NY. As a client, we are not always fully aware of that. I can imagine that out of this desperation, feelings of contempt, low self-esteem can grow ...

 

Not everybody is a superstar escort. There are definitely those for whom this is purely a tool to survive.

 

I spoke with a psychologist who works with escorts. Unfortunately they do express contempt for clients and escorting. Good thing they're in therapy.

[LivingnLA]

I spoke with a psychologist who works with escorts. Unfortunately they do express contempt for clients and escorting. Good thing they're in therapy.

 

Does your psychologist work with every single escort on Earth? If not, it's unfair to suggest all escorts have contempt for clients and escorting. Those that work with your friend seem to need therapy, so it's good they're getting help. I do not believe all escorts have contempt for their work or their clients. I may be naive, but I believe the true pros do the work because they enjoy the work and feel they're helping their clients while they're helping themselves. Now, how many "true pros" are in the field? If it's anything like many other industries, it's likely no more than 10-20% of escorts. For the remaining 80-90%, I'm sure some do indeed have contempt for clients, escorting, and likely themselves. Such feelings frequently are rooted in deeply held self-hatred, possibly from internalized homophobia, childhood abuse, or other issues.

[+ quoththeraven]

On a serious note, I would like Raven to weigh in on this topic. Everyone's point is certainly valid but I'm wondering if there is a more nuanced view with the working aspect that might be approached?

 

Peace,

 

Kipp

I'm a little surprised you mentioned me in a positive light, but the only addition I have to this discussion is the influence of the widespread belief that transactional sex degrades it or is immoral.

 

I agree that those who escort to survive rather than because it suits them are more likely to feel contempt. They're also more likely to be exploited or allow themselves to be exploited as well.

 

There's a gender divide in all this too, but all I will say about that is that indoctrinating girls and women that sex must always be an expression of love when boys and men get no such indoctrination does everyone a disservice.

[rvwnsd]

...Then she looks at me and says "don't judge me, I've never done this before."

 

And here's where I make the relevant point. I told her that I am judging her. I am always judging her. She is always judging me. I am judging everyone I see, everyone I meet, everyone I pass on the street. So is she. So are YOU. And, yeah, we are always judging ourselves. Sometimes we have negative judgments, sometimes we have positive judgments, sometimes they are neutral. The point is - everyone is always judging everyone. It's not real. It doesn't actually mean anything other than our egos have an opinion. I am not saying it's easy to face judgment. I am not saying it's fair. I am not saying it's rational. It is none of these things. But, it does happen and it happens all the time. I think the question to ask ourselves is - how much are we going to care? How much are we going to accept someone else's judgment as fact, as our reality? We can not control another's opinion, judgment, or perspective. Yes, there are escorts who have "contempt" for clients and clients who "dislike" escorts and folks who think we are all "losers."

 

I just think before we start worrying too much about what other people might be thinking, we could probably find some peace of mind in the realization that we are all always judging - ourselves included. Then you can decide how much you want to take any of it personally.

 

An excellent set of points. Thank you for making them. (There, I just judged what you said - in a positive way. )

[adventurous old guy]

+1 on @Keith30309

 

This thread had me thinking of something...I think the question to ask ourselves is - how much are we going to care? How much are we going to accept someone else's judgment as fact, as our reality? We can not control another's opinion, judgment, or perspective. Yes, there are escorts who have "contempt" for clients and clients who "dislike" escorts and folks who think we are all "losers."

 

I just think before we start worrying too much about what other people might be thinking, we could probably find some peace of mind in the realization that we are all always judging - ourselves included. Then you can decide how much you want to take any of it personally.

 

I think this is wise, and it IS the solution. We can't control what people think or do, and often people don't think or do what we'd like or hope. At the risk of mixing the sacred/profane LOL, reminds me of the Serenity Prayer: God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

[escortrod]

I feel sorry for escorts who have contempt for their clients. Barring any unfortunate events most of us will end up in the position where hiring is at least a consideration at some point. I can only imagine the self loathing that could give rise to, as well as setting them up to dislike the escorts they end up hiring, if they assume their contempt is universal.

[Tonyko]

As someone who basically grew up at The Gaiety taken in by those guys while still in my teens as well as by the woman who owned it back when they could "entertain" right on the premesis, and as someone who (looooooong time ago lol) was mistaken more than once for a working boy at The Townhouse by other working boys, I have interloped on the "inside" of this, as in - getting a bunch of smiling accomidating personal assistants together with no bosses around and hearing what they REALLY think :-) And yes I heard some contempt for clients, not hatred more like a cruel down-talking, like teenage girl Heathers. BUT two things struck me about what boils down to the culture of having sex with men they are not attracted to for money. There was as much vitriol spewed by GAY escorts about clients as there was KIND APPRECIATION for them by STRAIGHT G4P escorts. I thought str8 scorts who are not attracted to men at all even if they look like Zac Efron which NONE of us do would be MOST resentful. But it was REALLY just a matter of individual personalities. So I think it's impossible to make any calls on how prevailing this attitude is.

I am peripherally friendly with a very popular gay scort who often talks about how gross some of his regulars are, fat, old, bald, etc etc, and I am VERY DEAR buds with a former scort/dancer STR8 ex military I first met at The Gaiety years ago who could not be kinder when talking about his old clients. (and Ima sure the REVERSE of BOTH exists as well)

[caliguy]

very popular gay scort who often talks about how gross some of his regulars are, fat, old, bald, etc etc,

Give that man a gold medal for sucking it up and coming out on top. I'll bet there are definite signs of his contempt but the hot factor over rides any of the other senses. This doesn't surprise me though. Many times it's the popular ones that have the most contempt. The prima donna complex. I think age is a big factor too. Like when I was younger I had contempt for older gay men or anyone who I didn't perceive as my equal. No matter what I did or how treated them they'd still want me so I never really had to develop my personality skills. Btw I'm a nice guy today but it took lots of growing up.

[+ glutes]

This doesn't surprise me though. Many times it's the popular ones that have the most contempt.

 

Ding!

[corndog]

There was as much vitriol spewed by GAY escorts about clients as there was KIND APPRECIATION for them by STRAIGHT G4P escorts.

It has crossed my mind several times that G4P (gay-for-pay) escorts and strippers have a certain advantage, assuming that they really are straight: The G4P escort goes into every professional situation knowing that they're not going to find true attraction to their male client. They never get their hopes up; they're never disappointed. It's just a job.

 

The gay escort, on the other hand, knows what it's like to be attracted to men, and deep down holds onto hopes that his next client is going to be really hot and genuinely turn him on. He's set up to judge his clients and likely to find disappointment. The world's best escorts have mastered the ability to find something attractive in everyone, but that skill remains rare. There has been some somewhat heated discussion here recently about an escort who acknowledges that he can't perform fully with clients who are too old. If this guy were G4P, and his attraction to all his clients was always essentially zero, it seems like this wouldn't be an issue at all: his performance would not be tied to attraction at all.

 

As an interesting aside, when getting private dances from strippers in Montreal, I've found that some of them include kissing as part of their "dances." Without exception, I've found these to be the straight, G4P dancers. For the gay dancers, kissing is "too intimate."

 

Having said all this, I'll still choose a gay guy over a G4P guy anytime.

[mike carey]

I just think before we start worrying too much about what other people might be thinking, we could probably find some peace of mind in the realization that we are all always judging - ourselves included. Then you can decide how much you want to take any of it personally.

Excellent points in a great post. We don't always worry about what others think but at times we are still surprised if they offer an opinion. I recall a recent conversation we had where you offered an opinion about me that surprised me, and was quite different to some of my opinions of myself. Several years ago when I was still working (in a relatively senior management role) I was subjected to a 360 degree assessment. I was surprised that of my subordinates, peers, bosses and myself, I was the one that had the lowest opinion of my abilities.

[BaronArtz]

I spoke with a psychologist who works with escorts. Unfortunately they do express contempt for clients and escorting. Good thing they're in therapy.

 

I think you are absolutely right. We don't need to create fiction, or embellish the truth like so many on this forum do. It is all an illusion ...

[+ newatthis]

...As an interesting aside, when getting private dances from strippers in Montreal, I've found that some of them include kissing as part of their "dances." Without exception, I've found these to be the straight, G4P dancers. For the gay dancers, kissing is "too intimate."...

YMMV. My experience has been all over the place...gay dancers who do and don't kiss; ditto for "straight." "Straight" is in quotes because the more time I spend in Montreal, the more the straight/gay line seems to blur, especially for dancers who've been in the business for a while. Most recently I've been surprised by a number of Stock dancers who have crossed above "3" on the Kinsey scale...it hasn't been that long since Stock dancers had a reputation (among their gay peers) for being homophobic.

[Jock123]

"People who pay for Escorts just cant get any In real life"

 

IS...let me repeat IS the Biggest crock of Bullshit if there ever was. HUGE Misconception. In the few years I have done this I have had MORE...or at least 40% of guys hire me under the age of 35 Years old. ALSO my most regular guy(Someone Ive seen every week for a few years now) is 24 Years old.

 

 

I've met average to "Wow I should be Paying HIM" kind of guys. Hot, Short Big. Tall and everything In between.

[LADoug1]

Does your psychologist work with every single escort on Earth? If not, it's unfair to suggest all escorts have contempt for clients and escorting. Those that work with your friend seem to need therapy, so it's good they're getting help. I do not believe all escorts have contempt for their work or their clients. I may be naive, but I believe the true pros do the work because they enjoy the work and feel they're helping their clients while they're helping themselves. Now, how many "true pros" are in the field? If it's anything like many other industries, it's likely no more than 10-20% of escorts. For the remaining 80-90%, I'm sure some do indeed have contempt for clients, escorting, and likely themselves. Such feelings frequently are rooted in deeply held self-hatred, possibly from internalized homophobia, childhood abuse, or other issues.

 

 

I did not mean to imply that all escorts feel contempt. I just meant that some do which is evidenced when seeking psychological help.

[adventurous old guy]

"People who pay for Escorts just cant get any In real life"

 

IS...let me repeat IS the Biggest crock of Bullshit if there ever was. HUGE Misconception"

 

 

This compartmentalized way of thinking is callous, and its why I felt dissed enough by the Entertainer to start this thread. People come into this space - what the French call the Demimonde -- for many reasons. Its thrilling, its naughty, its rebellious, its human, its fun! And its not like it's new, probably as old as civilization.

 

So - channeling my inner Streisand here: Don't Rain on my Parade!

[Mo Mason]

men who hire escorts as old or ugly creeps who can't find love or companionship in their lives

 

Escorts are justified in thinking this about me because it's absolutely true. Only I'm not old.

[marylander1940]

Actually many people did and I can understand why. No need to single anyone out.

 

You have a point, but...

 

"we're the owners of our secrets and the slaves of our words" (posts)

[+ bashful]

hiring IS entertainment

 

Performance art.