Sobriety

[bigvalboy]

Yes and Yes....however it would depend on how long that recovery is. I've been there, and done that, but it has been my experience, and is my belief, that increased clean time greatly changes a persons perspective on the world, and how well they relate to others. Befriending an escort in recovery is one thing, having intimate sex with them is a different matter. In my opinion anyway, and to be honest, for me at least, once I become friends with someone I become no longer attracted to them sexually.

[Guest ChrisW]

How long does someone have to be sober for you to hire them?

[+ stevenkesslar]

Yes and Yes....however it would depend on how long that recovery is. I've been there, and done that, but it has been my experience, and is my belief, that increased clean time greatly changes a persons perspective on the world, and how well they relate to others. Befriending an escort in recovery is one thing, having intimate sex with them is a different matter. In my opinion anyway, and to be honest, for me at least, once I become friends with someone I become no longer attracted to them sexually.

 

Part of my burnout for several years was that I got sick of spending time and/or having sex with drug addicts. Some were escorts, and many looked like escorts. Many are guys I met in sex clubs who were on drugs when I met them. So the easiest thing in the world is to blame myself because I got exactly what I should have expected, which is fun sex followed by flaky addict behavior if I tried to take any kind of relationship - friend, fuck buddy, whatever - even one step further.

 

To be honest, it can be fun to walk into a sex club chock full of hot studs tweaking and wanting the day lights fucked out of them. But I haven't done it for years, and I'm not eager to go down that rabbit hole again.

 

And just to cut charges of hypocrisy off at the pass, I've had about 4 different experiences where I had sex with fuck buddies where I was on drugs, and all were awesome. The last one was about 8 years ago. My takeaway is that it taught me how easy it probably is to become an addict, because after every time I had so much fun that I was tempted to do it again. I'm sure that's how it always starts.

[+ stevenkesslar]

In My Line Of Work, I See Actors With Many Addictions. From Sex Addiction, To Alcoholism, Steroids, All The Way To Hardcore Drugs. Seeing This Post Made Me Feel Good That Some Are Able To Fight For Themselves & Believe In Themselves Enough, To Want A Better, Cleaner & Healthier Life. I Wish Nick Much Continued Success On His Journey To Sobriety!

 

By the way, Rick, I just ran into your original post. It is very moving and started what became a great thread.

 

I was just wondering. Did You Find A Treatment For Addiction To Capitalized Words, And Has It Worked?

[bigvalboy]

Not sure where you're going with that, it seems a bit of a loaded question Chris, because sobriety is different for everyone, and your question also presumes that I actually would know enough about them to make some sort of assessment about how well they were doing in sobriety, and I wouldn't of course. I can only tell you that I changed enormously along the way. I was a very different person at say 6 months, 1 year, or 2 years and beyond. Looking back today at those early years, I don't even recognize that person anymore. If pressed for a specific time, my mentors always said to refrain from intimate sex and or relationships for at least a year. That seems like a fairly decent time frame...others will feel differently, and will have different life experiences to substantiate their behavior.

 

My personal experience is that I've been intimate with people that don't have a lot of time under their belt, and it has been less than satisfying, of course that can be said about many escorts who don't fall into that category.

 

My problem is that, meeting people in recovery, I always want to fix them, and part of me always tries, but in the end I can't, nobody can, they have to do the work and fix themselves.

 

Great...I just went into a very dark place...Now that I'm thoroughly depressed, I'm stepping away from the key board, and I'm going to the beach today. Sayanora....

[+ stevenkesslar]

 

My problem is that, meeting people in recovery, I always want to fix them, and part of me always tries, but in the end I can't, nobody can, they have to do the work and fix themselves.

 

+ 1

 

Ain't that the truth!

[Guest ChrisW]

My problem is that, meeting people in recovery, I always want to fix them, and part of me always tries, but in the end I can't, nobody can, they have to do the work and fix themselves.

You nailed it BUT while you can't fix someone you can still be of service.

 

The reason for my question is that there is a TREMENDOUS stigma (some of it legit) for people in recovery and for people that don't have a whole lot of clean time. I find it very distressing that people are dismissed when they are newer in recovery. There have been many escorts I have known since I started doing this that have struggled with addiction and this line of work is not conducive to sobriety. Addiction is much more than chemical dependency there are usually deep rooted psychological issues that need to be tackled, do you think that someone should have to give up escorting while they work through those issues if they can still provide quality service?

 

The incentive to use while escorting makes me sick to my stomach. The things I have been asked to do in the last 7 days alone are mind boggling. I have been asked to shoot someone up, shoot up myself, traffic drugs across state lines, smoke crystal meth, give someone a booty bump and the list goes on. People will pay you more and do repeat hires if you use with them.

 

I know that you guys on the forum want a sex god when you hire someone but remember that there are people behind that fantasy. The escorts I know in the program are probably the most engaging and dynamic people I have ever met and the mistakes we made are what allowed us to grow into the quality providers we are now.

[+ stevenkesslar]

I know that you guys on the forum want a sex god when you hire someone but remember that there are people behind the fantasy.

 

Okay, I'm going to open a can of worms.

 

To what degree do you find that using sites like Rentboy or Rent Men adds fuel to this fire?

 

On some recent thread, if I recall right, Chris mentioned a list of digs he'd heard in just the last week, relating mostly to the idea that he did not have some client's idea of a perfect body. If I recall right, he pointed out all those hires came from Rentboy or Rentmen. To me, that is just the tip of the iceberg. The real iceberg is substance abuse.

 

I am speaking out of almost total ignorance about other websites, but I can say this. Almost all my hiring in 15 years has been off this website. All my best clients came from this website. They are all mature, thoughtful, and sober guys. I've been hired by guys on drugs occasionally, but it's been pretty rare, and no one has had a problem when I tell them I don't party.

 

About a decade ago I ran a free promotional ad on one of these other sites, for one month, and it was a disaster. The biggest problem was a lot of people were simply flakes, or were looking for phone sex. Out of maybe 100 calls or emails, I booked 2 appointments. One was with a guy who was high as a kite, and scary to be with, and the other was with a businessman who was very uncomfortable in his own skin and more or less treated me like a piece of meat. I felt sorry for the guy, who I'm guessing was married and feeling terribly guilty. Both experiences sucked.

 

I haven't used either site since, but my experiences are consistent with lots of stories I've heard from escort friends who do.

 

To be clear, I don't think its fair to blame escort websites for the behavior or attitudes of the clients who use them. But I do think different escort websites attract different types of clients.

 

The irony is that this site is free for escorts, whereas Rentboy and Rentmen and other ones escorts have to pay for. I'm wondering whether there are escorts who feel they are oddly getting what they pay for, when it comes to attracting clients who are drug users, or treat you like sex gods, as opposed to human beings? And if so, does it bother you, or is it just something you can accept as part of the business?

[mike carey]

To be clear, I haven't hired from here, but then nor have I from RB or RM, my few hires have been from Gaydar, and a mix of escort contacted me and vice versa. But then I haven't hired in the US yet.

 

Could I suggest that one of the differences is that in RB and RM escorts can post an ad and forget it but here they have to either engage with their potential clients or face their commentary in either reviews or in the Forum. From what I have seen here I have a confidence that a meeting would go well in a way I would never have from one of the paid advert sites. Of course that confidence may be misplaced! I don't dismiss the ad sites, escorts can post a thumb-nail portrait of themselves that I can add to the impression I've gained here.

 

Does this mean I would only hire someone who I had seen in here? Hell no, but it's somewhere I'd look and use as confirmation if they were reviewed or had commented in here. If anything the openness of discussions here has made me more open to looking for guys to hire, Forum approved a bonus but not essential.

[+ stevenkesslar]

Thanks for your post, Mike. It's informative, but it has nothing to do with sobriety, at least directly.

 

There is another post going right now about to what extent clients hire on reviews versus pictures or other factors.

 

Since this thread is about sobriety, and recovery, the question I'm posing is whether RB or RM or other sites help or hurt or both when it comes to keeping both escorts and clients sober?

[mike carey]

Fair comment Steven, and you are right my post had little to do with sobriety. To be frank, I commented on the basis of what you said in the previous post, as I read it, not on how it related to the subject of the thread. I missed the link back to the original subject in your last paragraph. My bad, so I apologise for that. This would not be the first time that a thread went off on a different tangent! If others chose to ignore my deviation from the subject at hand, so be it.

[AdamSmith]

If others chose to ignore my deviation from the subject at hand, so be it.

 

http://orig08.deviantart.net/ce49/f/2011/324/a/a/blending_daleks_by_librarian_bot-d4grrhd.jpg

DO NOT DEVIATE!

 

[mike carey]

DO NOT DEVIATE!

Exterminate!!

[mike carey]

Sorry, that was off-topic (lol).

[AdamSmith]

Sorry, that was off-topic (lol).

 

Let me bring it back on point...

 

How escorts perceive the typical client...?

 

[+ stevenkesslar]

Let me bring it back on point...

 

How escorts perceive the typical client...?

 

 

Wrong again.

 

This is how I perceive my typical client.

 

 

 

But that's just when I'm coked up.

 

Now, assholes, funs over. Can we get back to the point...??!

[Guest ChrisW]

Okay, I'm going to open a can of worms.

 

To what degree do you find that using sites like Rentboy or Rent Men adds fuel to this fire?

 

On some recent thread, if I recall right, Chris mentioned a list of digs he'd heard in just the last week, relating mostly to the idea that he did not have some client's idea of a perfect body. If I recall right, he pointed out all those hires came from Rentboy or Rentmen. To me, that is just the tip of the iceberg. The real iceberg is substance abuse.

 

I am speaking out of almost total ignorance about other websites, but I can say this. Almost all my hiring in 15 years has been off this website. All my best clients came from this website. They are all mature, thoughtful, and sober guys. I've been hired by guys on drugs occasionally, but it's been pretty rare, and no one has had a problem when I tell them I don't party.

 

About a decade ago I ran a free promotional ad on one of these other sites, for one month, and it was a disaster. The biggest problem was a lot of people were simply flakes, or were looking for phone sex. Out of maybe 100 calls or emails, I booked 2 appointments. One was with a guy who was high as a kite, and scary to be with, and the other was with a businessman who was very uncomfortable in his own skin and more or less treated me like a piece of meat. I felt sorry for the guy, who I'm guessing was married and feeling terribly guilty. Both experiences sucked.

 

I haven't used either site since, but my experiences are consistent with lots of stories I've heard from escort friends who do.

 

To be clear, I don't think its fair to blame escort websites for the behavior or attitudes of the clients who use them. But I do think different escort websites attract different types of clients.

 

The irony is that this site is free for escorts, whereas Rentboy and Rentmen and other ones escorts have to pay for. I'm wondering whether there are escorts who feel they are oddly getting what they pay for, when it comes to attracting clients who are drug users, or treat you like sex gods, as opposed to human beings? And if so, does it bother you, or is it just something you can accept as part of the business?

I think its GREAT that you get so many clients from Daddy's Reviews I however can think of only 2-3 clients that have resulted from posting on this forum one of whom made me want to boil my skin afterwards.

[ZhenXBear]

Okay, I'm going to open a can of worms.

 

To what degree do you find that using sites like Rentboy or Rent Men adds fuel to this fire?

 

On some recent thread, if I recall right, Chris mentioned a list of digs he'd heard in just the last week, relating mostly to the idea that he did not have some client's idea of a perfect body. If I recall right, he pointed out all those hires came from Rentboy or Rentmen. To me, that is just the tip of the iceberg. The real iceberg is substance abuse.

 

I am speaking out of almost total ignorance about other websites, but I can say this. Almost all my hiring in 15 years has been off this website. All my best clients came from this website. They are all mature, thoughtful, and sober guys. I've been hired by guys on drugs occasionally, but it's been pretty rare, and no one has had a problem when I tell them I don't party.

 

About a decade ago I ran a free promotional ad on one of these other sites, for one month, and it was a disaster. The biggest problem was a lot of people were simply flakes, or were looking for phone sex. Out of maybe 100 calls or emails, I booked 2 appointments. One was with a guy who was high as a kite, and scary to be with, and the other was with a businessman who was very uncomfortable in his own skin and more or less treated me like a piece of meat. I felt sorry for the guy, who I'm guessing was married and feeling terribly guilty. Both experiences sucked.

 

I haven't used either site since, but my experiences are consistent with lots of stories I've heard from escort friends who do.

 

To be clear, I don't think its fair to blame escort websites for the behavior or attitudes of the clients who use them. But I do think different escort websites attract different types of clients.

 

The irony is that this site is free for escorts, whereas Rentboy and Rentmen and other ones escorts have to pay for. I'm wondering whether there are escorts who feel they are oddly getting what they pay for, when it comes to attracting clients who are drug users, or treat you like sex gods, as opposed to human beings? And if so, does it bother you, or is it just something you can accept as part of the business?

 

I've only hired two guys; one from RentMen and one after meeting on "here". While my first hire (who was only 6 months into the business and made a lot of missteps in our interactions which he in hindsight admits and regrets) didn't connect on the emotional level that I needed, he is a good person. I asked him about what the culture was like, using RM as a means to connect with people and he told me (using anonymization, of course) about some of his experiences with "clients" (and I use this term loosely). To hear that there were times when he didn't feel safe, felt very uncomfortable, or just out right had to leave not only shocked me, but made me worry for his safety and well being. Some people are just creepy as hell, by his description; I'm referring to personalities here not physical appearances.

 

I also did a double take, when he told me that in the 6 months he'd been doing this I was the first person who ever took him to lunch, spoke to him like a real person, and was genuinely interested knowing him. It's sad, because I can imagine that guys that wander into the business who are struggling with emotional pain, alcoholism or other issues might be driven further into a dark abyss. Some people might assume that an Escort is hyperstimulated continuously with human contact and likely seeks personal quiet/downtime to recuperate, but I'd imagine if some have continuous experiences like he did, they'd feel even more isolated.

 

He told me "I was different" than the other people who hired him and I honestly though that was just part of the performance, until one day, his friend who continuously got a copy of his calendar as a safety check called and he gets on his phone and he's like, "Ah, no you don't need to call, I'm just with (Insert my first name)".

 

My first thought when I heard that was "Well, I guess I'm not one of THOSE people." and off we went to lunch...

[RyanDean]

Would you hire an escort in recovery and if so do you care what their clean time is?

 

Yes. As I've noted before (possibly even in this thread), I would definitely take note if there was category like "sober/straight-edge" or similar in the RB/RM boilerplate. Not as a guarantee of anything, to be sure, but perhaps as a conversation starter. As for the question of clean time, I'd probably feel better if the gent had a year or more but I also wouldn't presume to ask.

 

Perhaps at a future gathering/meetup, we can designate a particular table or corner of the bar for sober-types.

We can even wear t-shirts reading "serve me virgins only."

[AdamSmith]

We can even wear t-shirts reading "serve me virgins only."

 

 

[bigvalboy]

You nailed it BUT while you can't fix someone you can still be of service.

 

The reason for my question is that there is a TREMENDOUS stigma (some of it legit) for people in recovery and for people that don't have a whole lot of clean time. I find it very distressing that people are dismissed when they are newer in recovery. There have been many escorts I have known since I started doing this that have struggled with addiction and this line of work is not conducive to sobriety. Addiction is much more than chemical dependency there are usually deep rooted psychological issues that need to be tackled, do you think that someone should have to give up escorting while they work through those issues if they can still provide quality service?

 

The incentive to use while escorting makes me sick to my stomach. The things I have been asked to do in the last 7 days alone are mind boggling. I have been asked to shoot someone up, shoot up myself, traffic drugs across state lines, smoke crystal meth, give someone a booty bump and the list goes on. People will pay you more and do repeat hires if you use with them.

 

I know that you guys on the forum want a sex god when you hire someone but remember that there are people behind that fantasy.

 

The escorts I know in the program are probably the most engaging and dynamic people I have ever met and the mistakes we made are what allowed us to grow into the quality providers we are now.

 

Agreed..The stigma often comes from people who just don't understand addiction and recovery. Unless someone has gone through it, it is difficult to fathom the affects of addiction or the complicated process of recovery. Of course there is always the guy who once he feels he has recovered, suddenly becomes very judgmental on those that still struggle. I don't even engage in conversation with people like that. I'm never quite sure who they are trying to convince, me or them.

 

 

That being said, I agree that often times when I do connect with an escort beyond the physical, I find out that they are in recovery and or have gone through it, depending of course how one chooses to define it. There seems to be an underlying current of understanding among two people that have gone to Hell and back, and lived to talk about it, so my level of understanding, forgiveness, empathy are pretty high.

 

Unfortunately the temptations are with us 24/7, and I would venture a guess that in your line of work it is even greater. When all is said and done, you have to make sure that you take care of yourself first...period. "People are going to do what they are going to do" and you just can't

save the world.

[+ stevenkesslar]

I think its GREAT that you get so many clients from Daddy's Reviews I however can think of only 2-3 clients that have resulted from posting on this forum one of whom made me want to boil my skin afterwards.

 

 

Thanks, Chris. I hope in the future hiring off this site will be as positive for you.

 

And as much as I'm sure you taste as good as you look, please don't boil your skin. Just because people say "I could eat you up," don't take them literally.

 

Now that I've had my Hannibal Lector moment, back to sobriety. I'm cutting and pasting what you wrote on the other thread:

--------------------------------------------

Here are a few things I have been told in the last month of escorting

 

"**** me harder. Make that money"

"Wow I see they let anyone escort these days"

"You look chunker than your pictures"

"You look great except for that tattoo. Have you thought of getting it removed?"

"Your too hairy"

"Have you thought about loosing weight?"

"I wish you were more muscular"

"I am sorry if you won't slam with me I am not interested" (slamming is shooting up crystal meth)

 

All of these were from clients who contacted me off rentmen or rentboy. Let the gravity of these comments sink in...

--------------------------------------------

Again, I am speaking out of almost total ignorance, but when I read that it seemed consistent with my very limited exposure to the clients that hire off some other sites.

 

What you're saying suggests it may be damned if you do, damned if you don't. Over a long period of time I think I can make the following generalization about what other escorts have told me: many of their best hires come from this site, but there are fewer of them than hires from RM or RB or other sites.

 

One conclusion I can reach from this is that, as always, the burden to screen out addicts or assholes falls on escorts, and no matter what you do, you can never know for sure till you walk in the room.

[+ stevenkesslar]

I would definitely take note if there was category like "sober/straight-edge" or similar in the RB/RM boilerplate. Not as a guarantee of anything, to be sure, but perhaps as a conversation starter.

 

I actually think that's a great idea.

 

As I said above, it's not fair to judge RB or RM based on the clients that use the site. But it's not exemplary to ignore the fact that sex work and addiction seem to mix pretty frequently. I appreciate the fact that somebody from RM started this thread as a sincere attempt to address this issue. Websites like RB and RM have resources to make a difference, and the more they do so, the better, in my view.

[Guest ChrisW]

the truth is the rate of recovery is dismally low

 

I know its not a popular sentiment but its true. Getting sober is incredibly hard and staying sober even more so. People have slip ups and if we can speak realistically if someone in CMA can go 5-10 years without a slip up thats a big accomplishment. Nobody wants to slip but if after a decade you falter once or twice thats a whole lot better than daily use.

 

The goal is to never use again and its a good one to have and I don't think we should give people license to slip up every couple years but if it does happen its certainly not the end of the world. You try not to touch x,y, and z but if it happens you get yourself to a meeting and meet with your sponsor and continue to fight the good fight.

[bigvalboy]

I know its not a popular sentiment but its true. Getting sober is incredibly hard and staying sober even more so. People have slip ups and if we can speak realistically if someone in CMA can go 5-10 years without a slip up thats a big accomplishment. Nobody wants to slip but if after a decade you falter once or twice thats a whole lot better than daily use.

 

The goal is to never use again and its a good one to have and I don't think we should give people license to slip up every couple years but if it does happen its certainly not the end of the world. You try not to touch x,y, and z but if it happens you get yourself to a meeting and meet with your sponsor and continue to fight the good fight.

 

Absolutely....That's the reality of it. Good post.