Gotta do something about these "suicide by crashes"

[+ azdr0710]

However, there are times when there isn't anything that can be done. This is one of those times.

 

 

sad, but true......throughout life, at certain times, we have to rely on the honesty and integrity of others......sometimes it doesn't work out.....I suppose we could go hole up in a cave somewhere for our entire life

[Tonyko]

Or course it's unfair and ridiculous to make innocent family members pay, I was just SPECULATING on if it "would" be a deterent. Even if in some bizarro world it were made law, I "wonder" how long it would be before it would even have to be acted on (and tossed out of course) ie if it "did" make any suicide mass murderer with a non political/religous etc agenda other than taking his own life think twice. But I DO disagree re:

 

If the idea that killing more than one hundred people doesn't deter a pilot from slamming a jet into the ground I doubt the prospect of liquidating the pilot's assets and distributing the proceeds to the crash victims' families will deter them, either.

 

I think there IS a difference between the suffering of the poor nameless faceless strangers he took with him and that of their families, and the suffering and hardship of his OWN family members that he knows and possibly loves.

[+ quoththeraven]

Really? People with mental health issues by definition aren't acting rationally. I don't see how this is going to somehow force them to do so.

 

I favor having multiple people with the necessary credentials in the cockpit. The assumption that they'll always be men is wrong and a little backward-looking.

[bobchitown]

I have to read this more carefully, but on a recent flight from Orlando to Boston, there were three (3) people in the cockpit: Two in uniform, and one in just old ordinary clothes. #3 was an air marshall, I think.

 

The missile silos had two people to prevent mishaps from happening ala Dr. Strangelove. [POE = Peace On Earth, Purity of Essence]. At the Titan II Missile Museum in Tucson*, they said not only was a single

team on for 24 hours (I think); they had to remain in eyesight of each other at all times. Yes, including the bathroom.

 

*Highly recommended, especially for those of us who remember the Cold War.

All airlines should go back to 3 men in the cockpit. Pilot, copilot, & third pilot. The third pilot through the years has been referred to as the second officer, navigator, flight engineer. The frequency of psychological evaluations needs to be increased. I assume the flight attendant is in the cockpit only to open the door to let the other pilot back into the cockpit, No flight attendant knows how to fly a plane!

 

~ Boomer ~

The navigator used to navigate. No need any longer and a total waste of money.

 

Air Marshals are in regular seats, not the cockpit. Probably you saw a pilot who was dead heading.

[+ FreshFluff]

If the psych evaluations became more stringent and the consequences of "failure" more dire, pilots would simply get better at hiding mental health issues. As for three people in the cockpit (or box office ), most of the FE's work is now done by a computer. But suicides aside, a three-person crew could cover the checklists faster.

 

Going back to this incident: I'm worried about the possibility of copycats, which often occur with "regular" suicides.

[Tonyko]

Really? People with mental health issues by definition aren't acting rationally. I don't see how this is going to somehow force them to do so.

 

IDK, they're rational enough to carry it out while pretending all is well. I sometimes think those 19 slimeballs on 9/11 "may" have felt differently if they were perpetrating this horror on governments like their own where they knew their relatives mothers sisters fiance's etc would be dragged from their beds at night never to be seen again, as opposed to seen sitting across from Diane Sawyer. Because that's who we are. (thankfully :-)

 

RE WOMEN PILOTS: Isn't it simply that MORE men are interested in careers as commercial aviation pilots than women?? (I've been seeing more women in the cockpit btw esp the last few years on JetBlue) It seems in this day and age where a 6 yo boy touches a 5 yo girl's heinie during naptime and by that night Gloria Allred is on TV as her lawyer, that it would be difficult (and legally foolish) to hold capable women back just based on gender, no? We could say why aren't there more MALE manicurists or pre-school teachers. Or more women Podiatrists lol?? (THEY always seem to be men ) Any gender can do anything obviously, but it just seems that some fields are more traditionally popular among men than women, and vice versa. * If I'm thinking wrong or like a misogynist or anything someone tell me :-)

[instudiocity]

I have to read this more carefully, but on a recent flight from Orlando to Boston, there were three (3) people in the cockpit: Two in uniform, and one in just old ordinary clothes. #3 was an air marshall, I think.

 

The missile silos had two people to prevent mishaps from happening ala Dr. Strangelove. [POE = Peace On Earth, Purity of Essence]. At the Titan II Missile Museum in Tucson*, they said not only was a single

team on for 24 hours (I think); they had to remain in eyesight of each other at all times. Yes, including the bathroom.

 

*Highly recommended, especially for those of us who remember the Cold War.

The third guy was definitely not a Sky Marshal. They carry guns and fly in coach. The third ununiformed cockpit occupant HAD to be an ATR-Air Transport Rating. He was an invited guest of the Captain.

All airlines should go back to 3 men in the cockpit. Pilot, copilot, & third pilot. The third pilot through the years has been referred to as the second officer, navigator, flight engineer. The frequency of psychological evaluations needs to be increased. I assume the flight attendant is in the cockpit only to open the door to let the other pilot back into the cockpit, No flight attendant knows how to fly a plane!

 

~ Boomer ~

nice adding to the airline's costs for a someone to do nothing.

[instudiocity]

Does anyone know why there aren't more woman airline pilots? A quick search turns up less than 5% in the Airline Pilots Association. I understand part of that is simple awareness, but the other reasons given seem in adequate. Is it more perhaps that it is still a "Good-ol-boys-club"?

Lots of ex-military fighter drivers end up second careering as bus drivers. Not sexy but pays much better.

[Guest]

Or course it's unfair and ridiculous to make innocent family members pay, I was just SPECULATING on if it "would" be a deterent. Even if in some bizarro world it were made law, I "wonder" how long it would be before it would even have to be acted on (and tossed out of course) ie if it "did" make any suicide mass murderer with a non political/religous etc agenda other than taking his own life think twice. But I DO disagree re:

 

If the idea that killing more than one hundred people doesn't deter a pilot from slamming a jet into the ground I doubt the prospect of liquidating the pilot's assets and distributing the proceeds to the crash victims' families will deter them, either.

I think there IS a difference between the suffering of the poor nameless faceless strangers he took with him and that of their families, and the suffering and hardship of his OWN family members that he knows and possibly loves.

 

In Israel, they blow up the houses of families of suicide bombers. I wonder if they've studied if that's any deterrent. The potential suicide bomber knows it not just his life and those of strangers at stake, but those of his family as well.

[gallahadesquire]

That would be effective, but in the US, it may be unconstitutional. Also may be inconsistent with Germany's Basic Law.

 

I think pilots who intentionally bring down a plane full of people should be called mass murderers, not suicide cases. After all, the Virginia Tech and Columbine killers shot themselves too. The stigma attached to the term (versus "pilot suicide"), and the additional shame it would bring to his family, might serve as a deterrent to some considering this act.

 

Also, I wonder whether it would be effective to have the pilots greet the passengers coming in, just as the FAs do. It's been shown that looking one's victims in the eye makes it harder to kill them.

 

Odd you should mention that. The last few flights I've been on, on Delta, the Pilot(s) have been quite visible, and even approachable. OF course, there was that particular one I was flirting with ... but I digress.

 

As an aside [a trait for which I am known]: First class passengers on Luftansa and AirFrance are now met at the check in and assigned an escort. On some flights (A380) they are driven across the tarmac to the elevator at the base of the jetway.

Their luggage is brought up with them, and they are introduced to the Flight Attendants.

 

Would this help? No idea, but it certainly makes one wonder what American airlines (not AA) are up to.

[gallahadesquire]

A friend of mine won't fly. She recently did Chicago-Seattle by train.

 

Her take: "I got motion sickness, which I didn't know I had, so I couldn't read. NO internet access in Wyoming. I hated it, although the Cascade tunnel was neat."

I got her some meclizine for the trip home. "I knitted all the way!" She's knitting me a nice scarf, I have no idea why. High school crush, I guess.

[+ quoththeraven]

In Israel, they blow up the houses of families of suicide bombers. I wonder if they've studied if that's any deterrent. The potential suicide bomber knows it not just his life and those of strangers at stake, but those of his family as well.

 

My observation (not a study, but hey, we take what we can get) is that violence just begets more violence, martyrs, etc., especially when the motivation is political/ideological to begin with. Although their tactics seem crazy to us, terrorists aren't generally mentally ill, or if they are, not in the same way as someone suffering from suicidal depression (i.e., NPD, no suicidal ideation).

 

To me, this seems obvious based on an elementary understanding of psychology, but YMMV (your mileage may vary).

 

Punishment without an individualized inquiry is barbaric and anti-democratic. Thank God the U.S. constitution has a due process clause, although it was run roughshod over (with the connivance of the Supreme Court) when Japanese-Americans were interned during WWII.

[rvwnsd]

sad, but true......throughout life, at certain times, we have to rely on the honesty and integrity of others......sometimes it doesn't work out.....I suppose we could go hole up in a cave somewhere for our entire life

 

My dad used to say the only way to prevent crime is to make half the population police officers and pair each one up with an ordinary citizen. Not likely to happen. However, it is fun to fantasize about being tethered to a couple of the hunky policemen that hang out at a local Starbucks. Mmmmmmmmm

[+ dutchmuch]

I wish he would of just jumped off the GG Bridge during his SF visit.

[+ dutchmuch]

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03246/Andreas_Lubitz_3246487b.jpg

[Tonyko]

VERY curious to know what the health issue he was hiding is, fact that he HAD a Dr's note excusing him from work THAT day and didn't use it. (they say there's no regulations re pilots seeing their own Dr's outside of the required airline physicals, but seems like ANY Dr who knowingly treats someone he KNOWS to be a commercial pilot for something that could affect his performance should be REQUIRED to report it to to airline officials, no? There's got to be some confidentiality grey-area that allows for special circumstances like with priests shrinks lawyers etc, no?

[RadioRob]

My dad used to say the only way to prevent crime is to make half the population police officers and pair each one up with an ordinary citizen. Not likely to happen. However, it is fun to fantasize about being tethered to a couple of the hunky policemen that hang out at a local Starbucks. Mmmmmmmmm

I love a good looking man in uniform.... I love them even more when I get to take said uniform off of them.

[+ purplekow]

I love a good looking man in uniform.... I love them even more when I get to take said uniform off of them.

Is there a method that would allow the door lock on the plane to be opened from the ground and setting an autopilot on the plane?

[+ Charlie]

Is there a method that would allow the door lock on the plane to be opened from the ground and setting an autopilot on the plane?

If there were, there would always be the possibility of a terrorist hacker being able to use it.

[Guest]

VERY curious to know what the health issue he was hiding is, fact that he HAD a Dr's note excusing him from work THAT day and didn't use it. (they say there's no regulations re pilots seeing their own Dr's outside of the required airline physicals, but seems like ANY Dr who knowingly treats someone he KNOWS to be a commercial pilot for something that could affect his performance should be REQUIRED to report it to to airline officials, no? There's got to be some confidentiality grey-area that allows for special circumstances like with priests shrinks lawyers etc, no?

 

In California, health care providers (MD's, NP's, and PA-C's) are required to notify the DMV if a person has a condition which interferes with the safe operation of a motor vehicle. If there's a similar law for airplanes, I'm surely not aware of it, and it's not taught in medical training. The notifications do take a little time to make it through the bureaucracy. I don't know if the DMV is required to notify the FAA....

[BgMstr4u]

A couple of posters have touched on this, but only in passing.

 

What are the liability issues here? The flight originated in Spain, the crash was in France, and the airline is German. Under American law I am guessing that the company would be sued as responsible, since the pilot represents the company in his work. The lawsuits would probably be bundled, with 149 instances. The potential liability damages would be so high that it could put the company out of business, but if course the process would lumber on for years with all sorts of side issues and attempts to settle out of court. But that's the U.S. What about Europe? Who has the jurisdiction? What is the extent of liability and who exactly is liable? Just the subsidiary corporation or Lufthansa itself? Lufthansa has offered €50,000 per person. Would that carry with it an agreement not to sue? What rights do families have in this situation, if any? Is the company out on a limb to hang? Is there EU jurisdiction that overrides the national laws? Is Europe the trial lawyers' paradise that the U.S. is?

 

Can the families of the three Americans killed sue the American corporate entity of Lufthansa? Likewise those of other nationalities -- can they sue the local corporate Lufthansa entity, assuming there is one so it can do business in that country?

 

And perhaps most bizarrely, could the co-pilot's family sue Lufthansa for allowing him to fly if there is any indication that they knew anything about his condition?

 

Any lawyers in the audience here?

[+ FreshFluff]

There are caps on damages in most EU countries, but the caps may not apply here.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/germanwings-plane-crash-lufthansa-could-face-unlimited-compensation-claims-if-found-liable-10141075.html

 

My understanding is that families of US victims can sue Lufthansa in our courts, but IANAL.

[Guest]

I always feel a certain discomfort at companies having to pay out multi-millions unless they really did something negligent themselves. Obviously, the loss of life could be devastating to a family whose major breadwinner was killed, but is it not up to that breadwinner to decide whether or not to protect his family with life insurance in the event of tragedy? Of course, if the airline had received warnings and ignored them, that would be another issue. But from what I've seen so far, I don't think there was anything the airline could have done with the information they had.

[+ quoththeraven]

Families of US victims can sue in our courts, as Lufthansa does business here and is therefore within the jurisdiction of US courts.

 

Employers are responsible for what their employees do in the course of their duties even if it directly contradicts their duties. For example, a trucking company is responsible for accidents caused by their drivers. To do otherwise would leave victims uncompensated for actions taken in the course of employment, much like medical malpractice, since businesses usually have more assets and deeper pockets than their employees, and since the accident (or whatever it is) happened in the course of and the furtherance of the business

 

Bottom line: it just doesn't make sense not to hold the employer responsible even if the employer had no knowledge or way of knowing because to do otherwise would be to leave victims uncompensated. It's called vicarious responsibility and it's been the law for many years both here and in other common law countries.

 

Also, I wanted to insert some facts into a thread that is almost all speculation and opinion: US regs require two people in the cockpit anyway. It's Europe that allows one person to be in the cockpit. That's being changed. Pilots don't seem to be a particularly risky group when it comes to suicide. And planes are even safer today than they used to be; there are few mechanical failures anymore.

 

http://tablet.washingtonpost.com/top/german-plane-crash-raises-questions-about-airplane-security/2015/03/27/4d5418b2-d3f7-11e4-8fce-3941fc548f1c_story.html?tid=kindle-app

 

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2015/03/andreas_lubitz_committed_mass_murder_let_s_not_call_the_german_co_pilot.html

 

I don't get all the handwringing over this. This is a rare event. More people are killed in car accidents around the world in a day than died in this crash. Ditto for people around the world wrongfully killed by police/military/security forces. Or murdered. What makes these 150 people somehow more precious and special than anyone else who's died at someone else's hands? Why not focus more attention and resources on dealing with the deaths at other's hands we can do something about, like those that result from police action aka police brutality? In the US, at least, there's not much more that can be done than is already being done with regard to aircraft safety.

[AdamSmith]

I don't get all the handwringing over this. This is a rare event.

 

It appeals to the paleo brain. And thus sells newspapers.

 

DEATH BY: YOUR ODDS

• Cardiovascular disease: 1 in 2
  
• Smoking (by/before age 35): 1 in 600
  
• Car trip, coast-to-coast: 1 in 14,000
  
• Bicycle accident: 1 in 88,000
  
• Tornado: 1 in 450,000
  
• Train, coast-to-coast: 1 in 1,000,000
  
• Lightning: 1 in 1.9 million
  
• Bee sting: 1 in 5.5 million
  
• U.S. commercial jet airline: 1 in 7 million
  

http://anxieties.com/flying-howsafe.php#.VRqoHuHMhCI