Do Pride Parades Help Or Hurt The Cause?

[+ Gar1eth]

Someone in the recent Gay Male Kissing In Public Thread mentioned that overly passionate kissing in public in his opinion would only hurt us by uniting people with prejudice against us. Well if kissing can do this- and I'm not discounting what he said at all- then what about the Pride Parades that feature floats/marchers that can be shocking to certain segments of the population. While I understand the need for Pride Parades, could some of the ones with more 'shocking' participants be hurting rather than helping us in our quest for acceptance. If a couple is trying to make the point that their relationship is the same as a heteronormative one, then a licentious Pride Parade may not be a good example of what you are aiming for.

 

Gman

[Newly]

The cause? I'll be damned if I'm going to let straight people tell me how to act to "fit" their standards. It's not like they ask gay people what we think about their actions. As long as you let others tell you how you need to act to be accepted you're oppressed. Heck, if we had followed what the majority of the population thinks is how we should act we'd all still be in the closet - kind of like the Old South where every family had an uncle who never married, everyone knew what was going on but as long as it wasn't mentioned it was tolerated. Lots of young kids are finally staring to accept people as they are, for heaven's sake let's not go back in the closet after so many have struggled to get us to where we are now.

[+ azdr0710]

both of you make very important points....newtothis's comments are good....

 

but the sight of pink boas and prancing, effeminate twinks in Speedos on some flower-bedecked float at the parade is enough to keep me pretty far back in a large walk-in closet for now....

 

acceptance by society is moving forward nicely now...it'll still take some time....we all have our different comfort levels

[+ SundayZip]

Seems like the extremes push those who are in the middle to the opposite direction. Hate crimes and vitriolic messages against LGBT people ultimately shift the undecided towards acceptance of gays. Pink boas and prancing, effeminate twinks in Speedos on some flower-bedecked float probably send them running the other way. Take my mom as an example. The extremely flamboyant thing will send her running in the opposite direction. On the other hand, overt persecution of a gay person is likely to elicit a response like, "can't they just let the gays live in peace? They're good people just like the rest of us".

[+ FreshFluff]

Seems like the extremes push those who are in the middle to the opposite direction. Hate crimes and vitriolic messages against LGBT people ultimately shift the undecided towards acceptance of gays. Pink boas and prancing, effeminate twinks in Speedos on some flower-bedecked float probably send them running the other way. Take my mom as an example. The extremely flamboyant thing will send her running in the opposite direction. On the other hand, overt persecution of a gay person is likely to elicit a response like, "can't they just let the gays live in peace? They're good people just like the rest of us".

 

This is one reason why Westboro, as horrible as they are, has actually made many people more sympathetic towards gays. I mean "sympathetic" as in able to identify with them.

[Nvr2Thick]

I think it may hurt in the short term, but help in the long term. Some of the "straight acting" gays have expressed that we'd be accepted if only the more flaming or "out there" gays would act more normal. For decades there has been a focus on the extremes presented in gay pride activities - used as a negative example by objecting straights.

 

The outrageous drag, speedo hunks, leathermen, etc. had been coming together in the parades for solidarity and defiance. Over time this helped others to come out and join in the fun. Men who weren't nearly so out there with their flamboyance felt some safety and camaraderie in numbers. This was obviously the point of gay pride. Increased participation of any kind helps to expose family and friends to more and more gay people, which helps the cause. Likewise, it has helped the pride events to reach a mass and popularity allowing more "normal" participants and activities.

 

Also, putting "shocking" participants on display has desensitized many to these behaviors and stereotypes. Flamboyance in TV and movies has gone from a negative stereotype to a positive stereotype, and is moving toward a neutral variant of normal. I can imagine a point in time when a gay character on network TV will appear in leather gear and it's not the setup for a lewd plot line.

 

Certainly many still object to flamboyant displays. The acts are still polarizing, but I believe we're getting a lot more support on our pole as a result of decades of exposure. I like to think of Gay Pride as the one day of the year to announce our presence colorfully, followed by 364 days of more subdued exposure.

[Guest ChrisW]

At what point in our personal lives do we stop pandering to others whims and live authentically without apology? Drag queens, leather men, sex workers, and trans folks have been at the vanguard of the modern LBGT movement should we hide them because it makes other people uncomfortable? Each one of these groups represents a massive under lying cultural issue that needs to be addressed.

 

Often times in the news we hear about personal responsibility from the conservative side of the political spectrum but we don't hear a whole lot of ownership of feelings. Why does the LBGTQ movement make people so uncomfortable? It challenges peoples notions of "what should be". We represent a threat to a gender binary that is deeply engrained in the world as well as sexual freedom.

[rvwnsd]

There is absolutely nothing to "accept." What happened to "we're queer, we're here, get over it?"

[Daverwr]

GMan, I think one of the biggest problems with the overtly flamboyant during Gay Pride celebrations is that these are the individuals that the media latch onto and show on the 11 o'clock news (10 Central Time)! You rarely see the grandmother marching with a sign that says "I love my gay grandson" on the news or in the papers. So, unfortunately, some straight, and closeted LGBT individuals think that the flamboyance defines the gay culture.

[+ Gar1eth]

I am conflicted on this. If people being flamboyant are what's gotten us to our current level of acceptance. Then I want to thank them. On the other hand- and I've admitted this before- but while I may not be the most masculine guy around-I'm not overtly effeminate acting. The problem with the flamboyance is that if people knew I were gay (a few people I trust do know, but I'm not in a position right now to be totally open)- then every odd little mannerism, I have- if I ever get upset about something someone else thinks is no big deal- there is always going to be in the back of their mind- well he's just overreacting because he is gay. I don't like that. And being surrounded by overly flamboyant people on TV, movies, and at Pride Parades is not helping.

 

Gman

[Newly]

Gman if that's the issue the problem isn't other people's flamboyance, it's your need to seek acceptance from those who judge you for being how you are. Gay people aren't dogs or pets who need approval from their masters. So long as people aren't hurting others they have just as much right as anyone else to express themselves. And as others have pointed out by exposing people to the "extreme" they start to learn that the world goes on just fine if we allow people to be themselves. Just using an analogy to the civil rights era a lot of people would say that African Americans were fine so long as they weren't "uppity" and knew their place. I don't wear boas or dress in drag, but I've got no problem with those who do - they were the ones who took the most risk in being themselves and helping us get out of the closet - they're the brave ones.

[+ Gar1eth]

Gman if that's the issue the problem isn't other people's flamboyance, it's your need to seek acceptance from those who judge you for being how you are. Gay people aren't dogs or pets who need approval from their masters. So long as people aren't hurting others they have just as much right as anyone else to express themselves. And as others have pointed out by exposing people to the "extreme" they start to learn that the world goes on just fine if we allow people to be themselves. Just using an analogy to the civil rights era a lot of people would say that African Americans were fine so long as they weren't "uppity" and knew their place. I don't wear boas or dress in drag, but I've got no problem with those who do - they were the ones who took the most risk in being themselves and helping us get out of the closet - they're the brave ones.

 

I didn't say they weren't brave. But whether we want to or not- it's human to classify things- even if we don't want to. And I don't want my foibles attributed to the fact that I'm gay. My experiences, thoughts, and feelings may be in some part similar to other gay men- but I am an individual. I don't want every faucet of my life to be viewed through a gay lense. And straight people do this. We do it ourselves towards straight people, other gays, or lesbians.

 

In a similar fashion I could never get through the book Velvet Rage- a book that supposedly explains about the pain of growing up gay. I started reading the book- but the author wanted to use his experience of being gay as a universal prism in which to view all gay men. Well I'm sorry, I'm me. I resented him trying to tell me my life when he didnt know me. I don't think I felt toward my father the way he describes gay 'boys' feeling towards their fathers.

 

So I guess this is me- a mostly anti-flamboyant gay male. I want to be able not to be expected to be flamboyant. But if I ever do let go a little- I don't want it attributed to my being gay. It has nothing to do with that. It's just me and my psyche.

 

Gman

[MrMiniver]

I don't think it much matters anymore ... but I do look forward to when things like this (like the black Miss America pageant) are felt to no longer be necessary. When we're all just people not gay or straight, black or white, or whatever category one wants to put people in.

 

I don't think it's "flamboyance" that has got us to this point, however ... I think what has "got us to this point" is the majority of people realizing that gay people are just like them. And the kinds of people who have helped with that are people like Matt Bomer and Neil Patrick Harris and guys like them in other fields ... if it was still drag queen and the like, I suspect acceptance would be further off still. It's the "normalization" of what it means to be gay that has made most people find that it's just okay with them. And that's a good thing!

[Nvr2Thick]

The problem with the flamboyance is that if people knew I were gay (a few people I trust do know, but I'm not in a position right now to be totally open)- then every odd little mannerism, I have- if I ever get upset about something someone else thinks is no big deal- there is always going to be in the back of their mind- well he's just overreacting because he is gay. I don't like that. And being surrounded by overly flamboyant people on TV, movies, and at Pride Parades is not helping.

 

Gman

 

At this point in your life you have to be aware that far more than a few people know that you're gay than the few people you're out to. You're just hanging on to the last shreds of ambiguity. You may have good reason for that.

 

People who live their lives out, whether they're butch or absolutely flaming, deal with the stereotyped assessment of their perceived gay behaviors frequently. It eventually becomes something they tolerate, embrace or ignore. They can be better equipped to do so because they've cast off some or all of the self-loathing that comes with the desperation of protecting a closeted lifestyle.

 

I may never live my life out and proud, but I know longer deny it if someone figures me out. I made this choice when I came to realize that I was hiding something that was clearly evident to anyone who knew me, or to anyone who asked anyone who knew me. I was desperately in the closet because I believed that being out would affect my career and standing, and that was starting to happen regardless.

[+ Gar1eth]

At this point in your life you have to be aware that far more than a few people know that you're gay than the few people you're out to. You're just hanging on to the last shreds of ambiguity. You may have good reason for that.

 

People who live their lives out, whether they're butch or absolutely flaming, deal with the stereotyped assessment of their perceived gay behaviors frequently. It eventually becomes something they tolerate, embrace or ignore. They can be better equipped to do so because they've cast off some or all of the self-loathing that comes with the desperation of protecting a closeted lifestyle.

 

I may never live my life out and proud, but I know longer deny it if someone figures me out. I made this choice when I came to realize that I was hiding something that was clearly evident to anyone who knew me, or to anyone who asked anyone who knew me. I was desperately in the closet because I believed that being out would affect my career and standing, and that was starting to happen regardless.

 

I don't have the word 'gay' stamped on my forehead. And I am not overtly effeminate. There are only a limited number of people I've told. There may be others who supect- maybe even suspect strongly. But as I've never really given them any direct evidence, there is no way they can know for sure.

 

Gman

[+ SundayZip]

I agree that GLBT people should be out and open about who they are and that this is the best was to gain acceptance. But I personally doubt that prancing around in a speedo with a pink feather boa on a parade float is showing anyone who you are. It's more of an act of defiance like saying to man, "f--- Y--! I'll damn well be any way that I want! Even this!" If some GLBT people have a need to express this act of defiance, then more power to them. Go Girl! But those who actually advance the cause are those who are open about who they really are on a day to day basis and those who do the hard work of fighting for their rights in the courts or lobby legislators or campaign for just laws. Not the guy who straps on a leather harness to be in a parade once a year (although I do enjoy watching him march by).

 

Thanks Gar1eth for starting this discussion. It's a good one. I remain conflicted even as I post this. All I know is that I don't know.

[jimboivyo]

I think any smaller group who's considered radical hurts the larger group over time

 

there's a million ways 'to be gay.' I support them all, but also think that if you're going to live in a bubble, don't be shocked when the outside world impedes with force

[Decatur Guy]

Overall, I think the parades are a net plus.

[MrMiniver]

I never know what to say when people ask me about my "coming out." I think they expect that you had a big conversation with everyone you ever met or took out an ad in the Times or put up a billboard on Times Square. I don't know about anyone else but, for me, it was very matter of fact and organic. I never sat anyone down and said "I need to tell you something ... I'm gay." It simply never happened. Sure, I dated girls in school but by my early 20s I was seeing guys. I grew many many moons ago when that sort of thing wasn't public. But I never hid but I also didn't go around talking about it or "flaunting it." I suspect there are people who don't know whether or not I'm gay. They've never asked. If they did, I'd tell them but I don't feel any need to "announce" it to them.

 

So I've never completely understood what "coming out of the closet" really meant since it wasn't something I went through. Or if I did go through it, it was very subtle.

 

And, no, I don't think the parades are particularly helpful and neither is Pride or any of that other stuff. Just be who you are. I've never felt the need for public events to make me feel "proud" of who I am. I just always have been and don't feel the need for the validation that those events give to some, I suppose. But that's just me. Whatever works for you, works for you ... right?

[MrMiniver]

By the way, for those of you who keep using the word "effeminate." Some of the most effeminate men I know are also among the straightest men I know. We should get to a point where we don't equate "effeminacy" with being gay.

[Newly]

I'm not sure what the right answer is but I want to mention a not so perfect analogy. For years there were a group of African Americans who believed that if they played by the rules and acted in the way that Whites wanted them to they would surely be rewarded by being treated fairly. That went nowhere. It was when Dr. King started with civil disobedience, the Black Panther movement began, and there were riots in Watts, DC, etc. that the first signs of real progress started. I think that trying to please those who hate you is doomed to failure. People don't tend to give up power voluntarily, but when they start seeing you fight back and see those who are on the fringes no longer looking for their approval that they start to relent. After seeing the riots and the speeches from African Americans who no longer gave a crap about pleasing Whites I think many people saw the relatively modest demands of the African American community being the lesser of two evils, and started to back down from Jim Crow laws, etc. In much the same way those in the gay community who have parades with leather, boas, what not serve a very real purpose. Suddenly giving gay people minimal dignity and respect such as allowing them to marry seems like not such a big deal. I know this is very simplistic, but it's amazing how many groups that were discriminated against didn't make any inroads until they radicalized. Kind of like now in the US at a time when income inequality is going through the roof there are people who think that simply talking to the banks and 1% will make them change how they act. Good luck with that.

[+ quoththeraven]

By the way, for those of you who keep using the word "effeminate." Some of the most effeminate men I know are also among the straightest men I know. We should get to a point where we don't equate "effeminacy" with being gay.

 

+1. The existence of effeminate straight men is a point I thought about making in an earlier post, but it was already long enough. All part of my dislike for labels and assumptions.

[+ Gar1eth]

By the way, for those of you who keep using the word "effeminate." Some of the most effeminate men I know are also among the straightest men I know. We should get to a point where we don't equate "effeminacy" with being gay.

 

+1. The existence of effeminate straight men is a point I thought about making in an earlier post, but it was already long enough. All part of my dislike for labels and assumptions.

 

I think that's a specious argument. Obviously there are effeminate straight guys just as there are gay men who are very 'butch', but while there hasn't been a study that I know of, my admittedly far from scientifically accurate experience is that that there is a higher percentage of more effeminate behavior among gays and and higher percentage of more butch acting men among straight people in Western Culture at the very least.

 

Gman

[MrMiniver]

I'm not sure what the right answer is but I want to mention a not so perfect analogy. For years there were a group of African Americans who believed that if they played by the rules and acted in the way that Whites wanted them to they would surely be rewarded by being treated fairly. That went nowhere. It was when Dr. King started with civil disobedience, the Black Panther movement began, and there were riots in Watts, DC, etc. that the first signs of real progress started. I think that trying to please those who hate you is doomed to failure. People don't tend to give up power voluntarily, but when they start seeing you fight back and see those who are on the fringes no longer looking for their approval that they start to relent. After seeing the riots and the speeches from African Americans who no longer gave a crap about pleasing Whites I think many people saw the relatively modest demands of the African American community being the lesser of two evils, and started to back down from Jim Crow laws, etc. In much the same way those in the gay community who have parades with leather, boas, what not serve a very real purpose. Suddenly giving gay people minimal dignity and respect such as allowing them to marry seems like not such a big deal. I know this is very simplistic, but it's amazing how many groups that were discriminated against didn't make any inroads until they radicalized. Kind of like now in the US at a time when income inequality is going through the roof there are people who think that simply talking to the banks and 1% will make them change how they act. Good luck with that.

 

I wish I had some idea of what you are talking about but I don't. What is "acting like whites wanted them to?" and when is it you think this occurred? It's been my experience and a professor and as someone who has worked in the entertainment field that when black people started "acting like whites" then get a lot of crap from other black people who don't like that. It's something I face every day as a teacher. I try to explain to young black (men in particular) students about language and how saying "aks" and "mines" and "he's doing the bs" tags you and not in a positive way.

 

I don't really think you can equate "radicalizing" and progress. Sometimes things just happen at the same time. Dr. King was not a "radical" in any real sense of the word. Malcolm X was. And it was Dr. King who moved things forward, not the radicals.

 

And really anyone who thinks there is some sort of monolithic 1% that controls the worlds and all the rest of that BS, is just really living in a fantasy world and is being far too simplistic. And that's about all I want to say about that because we don't want to get too political.

[MrMiniver]

I think that's a specious argument. Obviously there are effeminate straight guys just as there are gay men who are very 'butch', but while there hasn't been a study that I know of, my admittedly far from scientifically accurate experience is that that there is a higher percentage of more effeminate behavior among gays and and higher percentage of more butch acting men among straight people in Western Culture at the very least.

 

Gman

 

Why is it a specious argument? You've admitted above that there are straight men who are effeminate. Therefore, effeminacy is NOT necessarily a gay trait. So let's stop using it as one. Argument over.