Keeping the closet door locked .

[Flower]

>After you have lived in the closet and lived two lives, in

>effect, it become your nature. It is who I am. It feels

>comfortable to me and I would not like the change of coming

>out. If I came out and lived an openly gay life, it would not

>be me.

 

x( hearing you say that makes me feel sad for you. I guess we each can only speak for ourselves, but I am so much happier with my gay friends at a gay restaurant in a gay part of town than I ever was with my so called str8 friends.

 

It is truly an exhilarating experience and I am thankful I discovered it while I still had time to enjoy it. Since I'll be uprooting professionally and moving to a new area, I'm going to be less financially secure for a while -- but I know I'll be happier. I'm going to take the opportunity to explore some of the more creative interests I have also. I truly feel invigorated.

[Guest Love Bubble Butt]

>everytime I watch gay pride marches etc on TV I die of

>embarassment b/c I know we are out there confirming the

>stereotypes

 

Bluboy, I lost a friend several years ago because he was so offended when I voiced a similar opinion. I know my opinion on this issue is NOT a very popular one. But, oh well. It's how I feel.

 

I too can't stand the parades. And I refuse to go to them. And here's the reason: We live in a democracy. And in a democracy, the majority rules (makes and passes the laws that govern us). The majority of Americans in my view look at being gay as more about behavior ... in their eyes a perverted behavior ... as opposed to an orientation, which is what it really is. But too many of the participants of these parades are more concerned about trying to see how obnoxious and disgusting they can be as opposed to advancing the cause of gay rights. And as a result, they actually reinforce the beliefs that being gay is more about behavior. I believe they do more harm than good. Homophobia is about ignorance ... ignorance about what it is to be gay. The parades only reinforces this ignorance.

[bluenix]

>I too can't stand the parades. ...too many of the participants of these parades

>are more concerned about trying to see how obnoxious and

>disgusting they can be as opposed to advancing the cause of

>gay rights. And as a result, they actually reinforce the

>beliefs that being gay is more about behavior. I believe they

>do more harm than good.

 

I think I understand how one could come to this conclusion, but it does seem to valorize conventional attitudes and values. Fit in, get along, don't rock the boat, we're really just like you.

 

But doesn't this approach feed their ignorance by serving up homosexuality on their terms? On any subject, not just gayness, I claim there's integrity in challenging assumptions and values.

 

Although pretending to agree when you don't is easier.

[woodlawn]

>>I too can't stand the parades. ...too many of the

>participants of these parades

>>are more concerned about trying to see how obnoxious and

>>disgusting they can be as opposed to advancing the cause of

>>gay rights. And as a result, they actually reinforce the

>>beliefs that being gay is more about behavior. I believe

>they

>>do more harm than good.

 

 

Hear, hear!

 

>

>I think I understand how one could come to this conclusion,

>but it does seem to valorize conventional attitudes and

>values. Fit in, get along, don't rock the boat, we're really

>just like you.

>

>But doesn't this approach feed their ignorance by serving up

>homosexuality on their terms? On any subject, not just

>gayness, I claim there's integrity in challenging assumptions

>and values.

>

>Although pretending to agree when you don't is easier.

 

 

But what if you DO agree? All of your comments seem based on the assumption that the flamboyant and exhibitionistic behavior the others are complaining about is part and parcel of being gay. Why do you make that assumption? Do you also assume that the violent and misogynistic imagery of 'gangsta rap' is part and parcel of being black? But there are plenty of blacks who find that imagery disgusting and are upset that so many Americans think of that when they think of African-American culture. Are they just 'pretending to agree?' Seems to me they're not pretending about anything. And neither are those of us who don't like what we see in the 'gay scene.' There happen to be plenty of men with homoerotic desires whose beliefs and opinions are not represented by the people who march in those parades. No on elected them to represent us and we resent the fact that they claim to represent us.

[phage]

>There happen to be plenty of men with homoerotic

>desires whose beliefs and opinions are not represented by the

>people who march in those parades. No on elected them to

>represent us and we resent the fact that they claim to

>represent us.

 

Then you guys need to get out there and march, or have a counter demonstration on parade day, or start an organization that represents the “I’m only gay in bed” contingent. Do something besides resent the people who are out there representing themselves in the way they choose – without apologies, compromise, or the need to assimilate.

 

There is certainly nothing wrong with being an average Joe just like your straight neighbors. Live the life you want to live and more power to you. But if you’re going to live in the shadows, it doesn’t make sense to complain about those people who are out there in the full light of day. I certainly don’t think they have any obligation to represent a group that chooses not to represent themselves.

[bluenix]

>...All of your comments seem based on

>the assumption that the flamboyant and exhibitionistic

>behavior the others are complaining about is part and parcel

>of being gay.

>...

>No one elected them to

>represent us and we resent the fact that they claim to

>represent us.

 

My assumption is not that "flamboyant and exhibitionistic behavior... is part and parcel of being gay" (although for some it would seem to be). My assumption is in fact the same as yours, that such behavior no more describes being gay than gansta rap describes being black.

 

Which is why I find trivial your resentment that marchers claim to represent you. Any half-educated schoolboy knows they don't.

 

Just out of curiosity, how exactly would you suppress the activities you object to? It's kind of a slippery slope, isn't it?

[+ Charlie]

I think Rick has really hit the nail on the head: how "close" are you to someone who believes you are someone different than you really are?If you pretended to have a degree in a professional field to get a job, when you had no formal education, would you really be comfortable with your colleagues who believed in your qualifications, and would you feel good about yourself? In all probabliity, it is true that you would probably lose their respect and friendship if the truth came out, but it would be because they felt betrayed by your dishonesty. If family members could cease to love you just because they discovered you didn't fit their model of what you should be, they I would seriously question the depth of their "love", which is directed toward an illusion, not toward the reality of who you are. I would want to be loved by friends and family for myself, not for some cardboard image I use to screen the reality.

[Spida]

I understand what you are all saying and very much appreciate the words. I wish I was strong enough to do it! I do believe it is the root of some of my more difficult personal problems that I keep ignoring... I just don't think I could ever have the strength to loose my nieces and nephews and sisters. It is not a question of how they feel it is a question of whether they will choose God over me.. I know that is how it will be!

 

I often thought of just moving away maybe that is the answer making a new life then telling them??

[duke37]

I wish I could give you a big hug now. Do what you have to do Spida. It's your life.

 

However I would want to ask you a question. If your nieces and nephews asked if you were gay would you tell them the truth?

 

My reason for coming out was the very real conflict I felt on the thought of lying to someone who asked. I had (and have) no big urge to tell people about my sex life. Not too much to tell really. But I never wanted to be in a position to lie.

 

Also for me I wanted ( and want) a full time serious relationship with a man, and I didn't think I was entitled to ask the kind of man I would be attracted to to have me in their life with being honest with the world.

 

On the other hand I wasn't as close to my family as you are and maybe I never felt I would lose them. Perhaps if I had been honest I would be closer, shrug. So I really sympathize with your reluctance. And like most people here want you to do what will make you happy.

 

Jeff

[Spida]

To answer your question Jeff, I would lie! I know that is sad but that is the reality right now. I hope it will change and now wish this thread hadn't started I am pretty good at tucking these feelings down deep inside and not think about them! But even if this thread didn't start something would have sparked it.. Almost went to NYC with Jack and the NYC gang that would have definitely sparked the feelings..

 

Thanks,

Spida.

[duke37]

Sorry buddy I didn't want you to feel uncomfortable. Please accept my apology.

 

I'm with you I should have taken the flight up and stayed at Happy Jacks hotel suite of sin and debauchery. Oh well maybe we can all fly out to S. California sometime.

 

On the topic of the thread however I would gently point out that you seem to be most uncomfortable about your situation when you are probably happiest. Perhaps there is some clue there on what to do?

 

Jeff

[Guest]

I personally feel it's better to adjust your life to a situation where you don't have to hide your sexuality, than to constantly make up stories to adjust to your current situation. For example, I was previously unhappy at a job where I couldn't be out. I now work in a job where it's not only OK, but I have domestic partner benefits. I've never told anyone at work that I'm gay, but I just live my life, and everybody knows.

For example, I show up at company functions with my partner, and he's signed up as my domestic partner (it took a phone call to the insurance company, though, to convince them he wasn't a "she" :7 ). Likewise, I've never said to my neighbors "I'm gay," but it's obvious to anybody watching us.

To a certain extent, my decision not to make up stories or live a lie limits certain options. It affects where I work, what neighborhood I live in, and where I go on vacation (i.e. I'll go to Saint Martin, but not to Jamaica; Turkey but not Iran, and so forth). I will also not have any friends for whom I have to lie. To me the costs are more than worth the limitations on my life, which I feel are minor.

[Flower]

> To me, being gay is about sexual desire and that's it.

 

That's really too bad for you. And mind you, I'm not criticizing you, 'cause I was in the same situation (predicament?) not long ago, and still in transition.

 

There is much about being gay that I enjoy that doesn't even involve sex. I have fun going out to dinner with one or more of my gay friends and enjoy not worrying if someone will figure out or even just think we are gay (we are! -- so now I can say "so what") even if they are much more outwardly flamboyant or stereotypical than me--I don't worry about it and enjoy their company.

 

I love going to gay themed or out right gay movies without worrying if someone will see me, or go into a gay club and not worry about who sees me go in or out. Sex is certainly part of it, but there is so much more which I have not even touched on.

 

Best of all, I enjoy the feeling of freedom I never knew before. :+

 

> Why would I want to leave a community

>in which I have so much in common with the other members to

>join a community with which I have nothing in common but the

>small part of my life that's devoted to sex?

 

If you are living in your "comfortable" community of friends and are telling us that it is str8 and "it" doesn't know you are gay 'cause you are hiding that fact from it, yet still say you have everything in common with it and nothing in common 'cept sex with the gay community, then I think both "it" and you have yourself fooled x(

 

In 2000, California voters went for Gore by a large

>majority even though he spent almost no time campaigning there

>while Bush spent plenty of time and money there. But the same

>voters gave an even larger majority to a referendum designed

>to ban same-sex marriage in the state.

 

Just be aware that 2 years ago or so, California passed one of the most progressive domestic partner acts around, and just this last legislative session, increased the covered "benefits." Not much distinction between a gay couple and str8 couple in California in terms of economic advantages, including property transfers, hospital visitation, health insurance, etc. The domestic partnership needs to be registered, as does a marriage, but there is a difference between domestic partner status and marriage in the eyes of many--both str8 and gay, but that should be the topic of another thread

[woodlawn]

>Then you guys need to get out there and march, or have a

>counter demonstration on parade day, or start an organization

>that represents the “I’m only gay in bed” contingent. Do

>something besides resent the people who are out there

>representing themselves in the way they choose – without

>apologies, compromise, or the need to assimilate.

 

 

Why would we want to do any of those things? If our whole point is that we don't care to shove our private sexual desires in the faces of others, doing any of the things you suggest would be counterproductive to say the least.

 

>There is certainly nothing wrong with being an average Joe

>just like your straight neighbors. Live the life you want to

>live and more power to you. But if you’re going to live in

>the shadows, it doesn’t make sense to complain about those

>people who are out there in the full light of day. I

>certainly don’t think they have any obligation to represent a

>group that chooses not to represent themselves.

 

 

What 'shadows?' Your idea that anyone who doesn't talk about his sexuality with others is 'living in the shadows' assumes that talking about such things is what everyone ought to do and wants to do. But that isn't true. Do you really not understand that?

 

As for the marchers, who asked them (or chose them) to represent anyone? The problem is not that they are not representing others adequately, it's that they are giving the impression they speak for people who actually want nothing to do with them.

[woodlawn]

>My assumption is not that "flamboyant and

>exhibitionistic behavior... is part and parcel of being gay"

>(although for some it would seem to be). My assumption is in

>fact the same as yours, that such behavior no more describes

>being gay than gansta rap describes being black.

 

Oh, good.

 

>Which is why I find trivial your resentment that marchers

>claim to represent you. Any half-educated schoolboy knows they

>don't.

 

I don't know many half-educated schoolboys, but I've met plenty of highly educated straight adults who are under the mistaken impression that all gays are exactly like that. Being educated doesn't seem to make a difference, probably because very few straight people take Gay Studies courses in college.

 

>Just out of curiosity, how exactly would you suppress the

>activities you object to? It's kind of a slippery slope, isn't

>it?

 

Who said anything about suppressing them?

[bluenix]

>I don't know many half-educated schoolboys, but I've met

>plenty of highly educated straight adults who are under the

>mistaken impression that all gays are exactly like that.

>Being educated doesn't seem to make a difference, probably

>because very few straight people take Gay Studies courses in

>college.

 

Why don't you inform them otherwise, since you know their impressions are false?

 

>Who said anything about suppressing them?

 

Sorry, I misunderstood.

[phage]

>Why would we want to do any of those things? If our whole

>point is that we don't care to shove our private sexual

>desires in the faces of others, doing any of the things you

>suggest would be counterproductive to say the least.

 

Of course you don’t want to march – neither do I. The difference is that I don’t resent those who do.

 

It’s like you want to prove a negative and that’s always very difficult to do. You don’t want the flamboyant elements out their parading around representing you. As if their absence will somehow demonstrate to the straight world that there is a segment of the gay population who is almost just like them.

 

That just doesn’t make sense. The more productive thing would be to show them that there is this contingent of ‘almost straight’ people out there. I understand that this is just what you don’t want to do, but I’m trying to point out that I don’t think it is right for people who feel that way to resent or denigrate others who don’t feel the need to fit into straight society.

 

>What 'shadows?' Your idea that anyone who doesn't talk about

>his sexuality with others is 'living in the shadows' assumes

>that talking about such things is what everyone ought to do

>and wants to do. But that isn't true. Do you really not

>understand that?

 

Of course I understand that, but I think it’s a cop out. Being gay is still very, very far from JUST being about sexuality. It would JUST be about sexuality if the straight world would let it, but they won’t. Every man has the right to do what he wants and that includes passing for straight, but let’s not kid ourselves that it is anything other than passing.

 

>As for the marchers, who asked them (or chose them) to

>represent anyone? The problem is not that they are not

>representing others adequately, it's that they are giving the

>impression they speak for people who actually want nothing to

>do with them.

 

I don’t know where you get the impression that they claim to speak for anyone other than themselves. Surely they’re allowed to do that. They aren’t chosen. They choose to go out and represent their lives in their own way. You, and many others, choose to stay quiet. As with anything else in life, if you don’t speak up for yourself, then you are going to have to live with what others are saying.

[Rick Munroe]

>You, and many

>others, choose to stay quiet. As with anything else in life,

>if you don’t speak up for yourself, then you are going to have

>to live with what others are saying.

 

As usual, phage, another logical & well-put post. Don't expect the same in return, though...it'll just be doubletalk & riddles.

[taylorky]

the following is not necessarily in reply to any one poster here,it's just my humble opinion..........i was yanked out the closet at the age of 17......and have never felt stronger and more in control of my life. i am decidely non-flamboyant,not for any reason other then that's just not me..........but i have no less respect for gay people that are.... nor for the breeders that constantly display there sexual oriention. i am NOT ashamed of who or what i am,and i will never hide the FACT that i am gay just to keep a "friend" ???? what kind of real friend would care??? or to keep some petty ass job..pffttt.........taylorky@17:01-02/23/03

[Guest Love Bubble Butt]

>I think I understand how one could come to this conclusion,

>but it does seem to valorize conventional attitudes and

>values. Fit in, get along, don't rock the boat, we're really

>just like you.

 

But I AM just like my straight friends (most of them anyway). The only difference is that I like bubble butts ... on a guy! We like the same movies, like to eat at the same restaurants, have the same stresses in life to make ends meet, have the same ideas on politics and other issues confronting our country, etc. It's not about trying to "fit in" or not "rock the boat." Being gay is only a very small part of who I am, or what makes me ME. I don't wear my sexuality on my sleeve any more than my straight friends wear it on theirs. I don't feel the need to make a show about being gay. But if ANYONE asks me if I'm gay, I tell them. And if anyone doesn't like that I'm gay, that's their problem.

 

 

>But doesn't this approach feed their ignorance by serving up

>homosexuality on their terms?

 

Huh? How is it on their terms? Not being obnoxious and disgusting is on straight people's terms but being so is on ours? Surely this is not the only means gay men have to express themselves. It's not THEIR terms. It's MY terms. *I* find a lot of the behavior at these parades disgusting as well. The marchers have the right to do it; but I don't have to be a part of it.

 

I've also had some black friends who have gone through similar issues with regard to race. They have been accused of "forgetting where they came from" or "trying to be white" all because they're educated, career oriented, dress conservatively (e.g., don't wear the crothes of their jeans down to their knees), and don't limit their friends to just those of their own race, etc. One of my friends even told a guy who was giving him some shit that if not speaking in broken English and not referring to women as bitches and HOs (sp?) makes him white, then so be it.

 

It's interesting how those who live the stereotypes demand that others who don't are either hiding and self loathing or are forgetting where they came from. It's ridiculous!

 

 

> On any subject, not just

>gayness, I claim there's integrity in challenging assumptions

>and values.

 

Absolutely!! I agree 100% with this statement. Unfortunately, it doesn't apply here. The majority of straight people hold the (incorrect) assumption that being gay is just about perverted behavior. And the actions of many gay men at these parades don't CHALLENGE these assumptions, they REINFORCE them! And that's the problem.

 

 

>Although pretending to agree when you don't is easier.

 

I don't pretend anything. I've had a few people over the years ask me if I were gay. And they didn't ask me because I act or dress stereotypically gay, they ask because they notice that over time I never talk about dating girls, talk about eating pussy (gross), etc. You see, I don't pretend to be straight. But I don't wear it on my sleeve either.

 

When they ask, I tell them. And they almost always have a lot of questions. And I answer every one of them. And time and time and time again, I have found myself having to dispel many of the stereotypes, assumptions and falsehoods they have developed about gays ... most of which were created by the actions and behavior of a very loud, vocal, and obnoxious minority.

 

 

Like I said earlier, I am well aware that my views on this are not popular with many gay men. And even those who don't agree with me have made some good points. But I've learned that sometimes ... we just have to agree to disagree.

:-)

[+ glutes]

If people ask me if I'm 'gay', I say no, I'm 'Glutes'.

What I do in bed friends and aquaintances generally don't care, and don't want to hear about it either. This sort of goes along with what Bill O'Reilly expresses on his show, and I believe him. (Oh boy, I'm gonna get into shit for this)

[+ Lucky]

"we just have to agree to disagree."

Okay.

 

[Flower]

> Being gay is only a very small part of who I am,

>or what makes me ME. I don't wear my sexuality on my sleeve

>any more than my straight friends wear it on theirs. I don't

>feel the need to make a show about being gay. But if ANYONE

>asks me if I'm gay, I tell them. And if anyone doesn't like

>that I'm gay, that's their problem.

 

*****

>I don't pretend anything. I've had a few people over the

>years ask me if I were gay. And they didn't ask me because I

>act or dress stereotypically gay, they ask because they notice

>that over time I never talk about dating girls, talk about

>eating pussy (gross), etc. You see, I don't pretend to be

>straight. But I don't wear it on my sleeve either.

hmmm---these statements contained in your same post above make me question some of what you say, such as: " I don't wear my sexuality on my sleeve any more than my straight friends wear it on theirs." What is talking about dating girls and eating pussy if not braodcasting their heterosexuality? So do you just remain silent and not join in? Or do you talk about boi bubble butts, sucking dick and liking bois?

 

The answer is obvious from what you have written--you remain silent, and at most smile when they in fact wear their sexuality on their sleeve. I'm sorry, but contrary to what you say, your real being appears stiffled by your str8 friends and your desire to fit in. And what do you do when they tell a gay joke? Please don't tell me you only go out with stra8 people that never tell gay jokes nor make comments about some "fag" or "one of them." What do you do then?

 

I really think you are selling yourself a bill of goods in an attempt to both feel comfortable with being gay and not rocking the str8 boat that you grew up on. At least IMHO :+

 

And btw, please believe me, I am not criticising you--how could I on this topic, but just trying to point out some stuff.

[Guest Love Bubble Butt]

Actually Flower, you make some really good points. And you're right, when straight "people" I'm around make comments about dating girls or eating pussy, I don't respond with talk about liking boi bubble butts. I just remain silent. But I do talk about it to my straight "friends."

 

And my straight friends DO NOT tell fag jokes. They wouldn't be friends if they did. But if straight "people" I'm around tells a fag joke, how I respond depends on my mood ... and how funny the joke is (just kidding on the second part).

 

But I will ackowledge that straight people have the upper hand in that I will only discuss my sexuality with my straight friends and remain silent on the subject when around straight people who don't know. However, I believe it's my choice on how, when, and to what degree I want to challenge straight people on the subject of gays.

 

I actually have no problem with and even admire gay men who readily admit they're gay to any straight person they encounter. For example, if a gay guy and a straight guy start talking about dating, and the gay guy mentions his last date named Rob ... I think that's great. It's a choice he's made for himself. That I can even admire. Takes a lot of guts. And I hope he doesn't suffer any negative consequences as a result. But that example is far different from what goes on at these parades. In my example, the gay guy is simply standing up for who he is. He's not trying to see how disgusting and offensive he can be to make a point. He's not shoving it down people's throats. I stand by my contention that the behavior of many gays at these parades is nothing to cheer about or admire. I firmly believe they do more harm than good.

 

And like I said earlier, we'll probably just have to agree to disagree.

[Flower]

>And like I said earlier, we'll probably just have to agree to

>disagree.

 

Fair enough

 

And if the truth be known, I used to feel the same way you do about some of the more extreme goings on at the parades. Now, I see it simply as individual expression -- like coloring your hair green. I don't do it but am fine with those that do.

 

I used to say much the same thing -- they are hurting "our" cause. But I now feel they are not trying to help or hurt any cause -- just being themselves and acting out. So finally I can enjoy it and have fun with it. :+