Dinner, a follow-up to the coffee thread

[Juan Vancouver]

Here comes a dissenting opinion.

 

It is offensive if someone wants to buy me dinner off the clock? Absolutely not.

 

Exactly the same way it's not offensive if someone asks me to bareback or marry them or charge them 20 an hour. (Not that there is any similarity between all those instances, I am just trying to say that there is nothing that anyone would ask me that I would find insulting.) If I want to agree to something, I will say yes, thank you. If I don't, it's just no, thank you.

 

However, and I know my case may be entirely different to many, I charge my rates for the time I spend with my clients. This is not an euphemism, meaning that I charge for a pork but really I am being coy so I say that I charge for my time.

 

Having walks. Reading our books in the same room. Going to the museum. Having dinner, lunch, brunch, hot snacks. Fucking. Having a drive. Going to the opera. On a safari in Kenya. Being massaged. Giving a massage. Sleeping. Hanging out. Going to a gay sauna to cruise for hot studs. Going on shopping. Getting a mani-pedi.

 

If my client asks me to spend time with him and I accept, I expect to be compensated. There is no exception to this rule.

 

I come to escorting from a therapy background. In therapy it is widely accepted that in order to maintain safe and healthy boundaries between therapist and client, it is of utmost importance to come together strictly under professional terms. Both in therapy and through escorting we go through very intensely emotional processes that make it very easy to warp the perceptions of the nature of the relationship. When this happens, the client is convinced the escort is his partner, either romantically or in a more vague way, and has a greater tendency to become dependant and powerless. The escort may forget that his client is his professional responsibility and may become dependent in other ways, financially being the first that comes to mind. This will make the relationship unhealthy and unsustainable. I personally choose to engage in practices that are healthy and empowering for my clients and myself, even if that means that I will have to choose not to "hang out" with my clients, most of which are fun, intelligent, funny, you name it.

 

When I am spending time with my clients, I am on. I am rested, have all my needs satisfied, my body is eager, clean, able, my mind is focused, curious, and excited about the way in which the session will unfold. While holding this awareness is really fun, it is also very energy demanding, and when my work is done, I need time to go shower, read, listen to music, do yoga, exercise, anything that allows me to bring back my attention to what I need.

 

There are a few escorts who have clearly stated that their job is to have sex with their clients, and I see nothing wrong with this. I really appreciate their clarity. My job, however, is not to have sex. My work is to spend time with my clients, and I do as much as I can to make sure that I do this job well. I am entertaining, easy going, intelligent, well spoken, well educated, speak several languages even if all of them incorrectly, I am comfortable in all sorts of occasions, I am endlessly fascinated with the individuality of every single human being, and I am a great listener. I am a companion. A specialized companion. It is my obligation to make it fun even under duress.

 

If someone's job is sex, then it makes sense dinner could be off the clock. If someone is a plumber, or a housekeeper, or a dancer, it makes sense dinner would be off the clock. If someone's job is the spend time with his client, then spending time with his client is his job.

 

I find that this has made my work healthy, safe, easy and intensely fulfilling. There have been a few clients with whom I would have loved spending more time, but couldn't. But because of this way of taking care of myself, I thoroughly enjoy every single session that I have.

 

I don't take offense at pretty much anything; please feel fee to ask anything. I enjoy being asked things. I this case, however, I would have to say no and explain why. Personally seeing you relaxed, having fun and fully satisfied, are a much better thank you note than dinner. That in itself will make my day and it will send me home smiling.

 

But I do appreciate the gesture, and I think it's really nice.

[Juan Vancouver]

One last thing!

 

I often get asked if I do massage and if I do, how much do I charge. When I say that my hourly rate applies regardless of what we do, then they say that they are only looking for massage. "Massage is normally 70" they say. "There's plenty of masseurs who charge that." I then ask why is it that they don't go with the masseurs who charge 70, and they, without exception will say that it's because they read my reviews, they saw my pictures and they want me.

 

They insist "I only want massage, really!" But it is pretty much clear that on top of the massage there is something else that they want: they actually want to meet you, spend time with you, look at you, be naked in your presence, use your listening skills, benefit from your personal and friendly nature, get treated like a king, you name it.

 

That is why a 70 dollar masseur won't do.

 

An escort friend of mine used to jokingly answer to invitations to off the clock dinner saying that he could not come but his friend Billy would gladly join the client. The client always backed up saying that he wanted to have dinner with my friend, not with this Billy. Sometimes my friend pushed the joke a bit further and inevitably, they would reach to the "What does this Billy chap look like, by the way". Is he cute? Is he nice? Will he make my dinner experience worth my while? Will he provide a nice experience? Is he as nice and fun and sexy as yourself?

 

I agree that this was a bit far to take a joke, even if it ended up in such a revealing way, but to his credit I can see his point.

 

Mae West used to say that there's no such thing as a free much. =)

[down_to_business]

Jaun thanks for you reply. While my thread has been partially hijacked, all I was trying to find out is if it would be insulting for me to ask an escort if he would like for me to buy his dinner after paying for an appointment. The reason being is that I did not want to ask at all if an escort would find it insulting. As I have not asked an escort to do this off the clock before and I would not ask him at all if the feedback I got back was that it would be insulting. This was not designed in the least to impose any standard that dinner should or should not be off the clock.

 

The feedback I have gotten from escorts has been it would be ok to ask and not be insulting. Many escorts may chose not to accept my invitation and you explain your personal reason for declining very clearly. I appreciate that. Thank you for answering my question. I believe I will invite my escort to join me and leave the decison up to him as to whether or not he wants to join me. I won't expect him to accept but he is more than welcome to accept or reject and both would be equally valid choices.

[bigvalboy]

Seems like this subject has been discussed several times very recently here...so I just want to put in my 2 cents.....again. I almost always invite an escort to dinner before or after the session, sometimes in between to break up a longer session. I have never had an escort say no to dinner. To say I am doing it simply to extend the hire and get in some free time, that is simply not true from my perspective. You can't generalize on that, everyone is different. I genuinely enjoy the people I hire and having a nice dinner with them the conversation and evening is almost always more enjoyable. We talk about things in life that you just don't get to when you are in the middle of a hire.

 

AND for me personally, when I hire, I tip..often very generously. The meal is ALWAYS in addition to the tip. The comment as to whether the escort would rather have the money or the meal, in the situations that I encounter, it is not an issue, because I have already tipped them. Who doesn't like a nice meal. If I wanted to give an escort the option, then that is a different story, but with me it is not either or..it is something that is separate.

 

I have often found the hire to be a much more gratifying experience, especially if we have dinner first. It gives me time to get to know the person a little better and I very often I feel more at ease. At the end of the hire, after payment and tip, I will often simply say "You hungry, my treat"...It is understood at that point that I am paying and that this is off the clock. If it is before, I will specify that in an email...I will simply say something to the effect, "I would love to buy you dinner first, LMK your thoughts"

 

I will say that my experience with escorts is different than Juan's, if I understand him correctly. In all the years I have been doing this, and that is a very long time, I have never had an escort say to me, Thanks for the hire, but if we are to have dinner, that will be extra time that you need to pay for...

 

I used to frequent a place in LA called "The Numbers", they are long gone now, but it was an upscale restaurant/bar where escorts would gather for the evening in search clients. On any given weekend, friends and I would have dinner there and would almost always invite an escort to join us. Never once did any one of them say, "yes I would love to join you but this is my fee for the next hour while we have dinner" I actually have never heard of such a thing.

 

And lastly, I have recounted this story here recently, but not long ago I was in the middle of a two hour hire. We finished after an hour and the escort said "you hungry, let's grab dinner and then come back and do another hour" I paid for only two hours plus tip..dinner was understood to be in addition to, and he actually offered to split the meal. I said no of course , but his response was, "No, that's not fair, dinner was my idea" I still paid, but I thought it was a nice gesture. It was a wonderful night!

 

Regards to all, BVB (and Juan, I love what you post, but on this we disagree...I think?) LOL

[bigvalboy]

AND....down_to_business...great thread, you did fine.

[unsub2O17]

DTB, it is a great thread and thank you. I am in NO way trying to hijack it, but I want to ask the same question in a slightly different way. I will shortly be doing my first overnight which will start early enough in the evening to include dinner. Maybe the escort meant it this way, but he hasn't said so if he did. I certainly plan on having dinner with him before we "get down to business" and paying for it, but it seems to me that his time for the dinner is being covered by the overnight fee (which, of course, is booked). Am I wrong in this assumption? Is this something that I need to clarify with the escort or should I just suggest that we start with dinner and he can pick the place and I'll pay??

[nate_sf]

I'll add my vote to the "no harm in asking" category. Personally I would not be insulted and might take you up on the offer, but other escorts might not. In the end we're all independent businessmen and can run our business as we'd like.

 

To echo JackF, if we're hitting it off, I think I'd enjoy the conversation, I don't have other plans, and I want to go out and eat, I might say yes and would do so without the compensation for my time. I think the analogy BVB makes to it being a tip is an interesting one. Not the same as cash in hand, but that's OK if it's something that has value to me. Sometimes I'll be able to say yes to the offer, other times no depending on what else I have going on at the time. I think that was the spirit of down_to_businesses' original post so I think that's fine.

 

Also, as JackF mentioned, it does not necessarily need to be a fancy place. Sure, I love fancy gourmet as much as the next guy, but I like simpler fare too and sometimes get tired of fancy food.

 

I like BostonPhil's approach... at the end of the appointment you could say "I'm going to grab a quick bite, would you like to join me? I don't have the money for your fee but would of course pay for dinner." Or if you think he might want to go to a fancier place, you could say that you know there are some great restaurants around and you'd like to try one, would he like to come along too? That makes it clear what the terms are, and allows the escort an easy out if he does not want to participate. He may or may not agree to join you based on how he wants to run his business, and other scheduling considerations he might have.

 

For longer appointments or regular clients, I've often negotiated a fixed price for an evening that may not exactly follow my hourly rate structure but is something we can both agree on. For one out-of-city client, we came up with something that considered cost of travel and bridge tolls, having dinner together, and intimate time all as one flat fee. We set a timeframe around it so it was clear what the obligations and expectations were, and what the compensation would be, and it seemed fair to both of us. From the other recent threads related to this topic, I think this is how a lot of guys negotiate their overnights and longer appointments.

 

It sounds like there are different approaches to this, both from escorts and clients, so it really depends on the situation. We're not all here to agree with each other but it's good to hear from the different perspectives.

[tom1980]

unsub -- I'd suggest talking to the escort about a general schedule or a list of activities for the overnight so that you'll be on the same page. It can be very generic, something like the following.

 

7:00-9:00pm -- Dinner/drinks (but not too many drinks)

9:00-11:00pm -- Play time/relaxing

11:00pm-7:00am -- Sleep

7:00-8:00am -- Morning play/shower/breakfast/say goodbye

 

This will let him know how you'd like to spend the time and ensure that he is able to meet your expectations.

[bigvalboy]

unsub -- I'd suggest talking to the escort about a general schedule or a list of activities for the overnight so that you'll be on the same page. It can be very generic, something like the following.

 

7:00-9:00pm -- Dinner/drinks (but not too many drinks)

9:00-11:00pm -- Play time/relaxing

11:00pm-7:00am -- Sleep

7:00-8:00am -- Morning play/shower/breakfast/say goodbye

 

This will let him know how you'd like to spend the time and ensure that he is able to meet your expectations.

 

Unsub...Tom is absolutely right here. ALWAYS be very clear as to what you expect or think should happen..NEVER assume anything. Telling him a schedule is a good Idea. In my previous post I talked about paying for dinner and that 'dinner time' was NOT included in 'playtime'....however...when it comes to overnights or longer, I always assume that meals are included in the hire time...Starting a little early to include dinner, I have always just assumed on an overnight that we would do dinner first. Now as Tom has pointed out, in the morning notice that he specified, not only breakfast but also additional playtime, (great idea) make sure you expect a little "Morning Wood"...Good luck.

[+ purplekow]

PK, I am curious if it is always with an escort you've hired before or if it is also with first time hires as well? I ask because I am reluctant with first time hires to do what you suggest (mentioning in advance going out to dinner afterwards and he is welcome to join me). If the appointment doesn't go as well as expected or if somehow I sense during our meeting that it would be a rather boring dinner with little interaction or interesting conversation, it can be awkward to back out of the invite. So I typically will just mention dinner at the end of the appointment if I think it will be mutually enjoyable to dine together. I realize there are times when the person didn't plan on that so may have other things to attend to and can't go. But for me, I like the flexibility of seeing how things go, especially with a first hire, before committing to a dinner afterwards.

 

While not all have accepted the offer, as far as I can tell no one was insulted but quite the contrary, seemed appreciative.

 

I have mentioned it to both first time hires and return visitors. One can alter dinner plans to meet the situation should the escort not seem like a good dinner companion. A quick dinner somewhere nice but fast if he seems like it might be a slow conversation. Quite frankly, I have only met one or two escorts with whom I would not envision a meal to be pleasant and the conversation lively.

 

I do not particularly like dining alone, so that may color my situation a bit.

On one occasion, I met an escort in New York for an encounter and asked if he would like to join me for dinner. He declined. I went to dinner at the hotel restaurant, and about 15 minutes later, the escort came in alone and dined alone. He was busy with his cell phone and texting. The next time he was in town, I hired him again and this time he came to dinner. He offered an explanation for his turning down the prior invitation and I told him before he got very far that No is always an acceptable answer if offered courteously.

 

I agree with the posters that suggest that there may be secondary gain for the client. It should be mentioned that there is secondary gain for the escort too and the extent of that gain probably colors his decision to accept or decline.

 

It is possible, that the escort who is traveling a lot and probably eats a lot of meals alone, might enjoy some company during a meal. I think Juan is a rare escort who has a firmly drawn line between job and personal encounters that works for him. I have no doubt if I hire Juan, I will not offer him dinner, because he has made his policy clear.

[adriano46]

Was a bit suprised at some of the twists and turns on this thread.

 

Years ago I oftened added a dinner to the date with an escort but always done spontaneously for one major reason that some (including Juan) mentioned: their time is precious and it is none of my business if they have/have not another client right after me or are planning on seeing friends, resting, going to the movies or anything else.

 

I have always felt that if I ask a guy to come to dinner that the hour or more for dinner is always - with no exceptions unless he has said so before hand - ON THE CLOCK. Sure some guys do not charge me their full hourly rate or will adjust it, but that is their choice, not my requirement.

 

As I get older, my dinner choices and needs pre- and post-sex differ. Frankly, I spend so much time making sure I am squeeky clean before any encounter, I refrain from eating for a few hours, and want nothing to interfere with the smell of breath from any oriface. I once had the very unpleasant experience of meeting an escort for a date when he visited NYC -- he asked if we could include dinner, which I went along with -- and he chose a Thai restaurant. Inasmuch as I like to have some ass play, this was a complete disaster for the date that followed (and no amount of mutual showering could help him --- ewwwww).

 

There are occasions too when I meet a guy I like a lot and not just for the sex, but for the other skills and talents he has, including his ability to hold his own in a nice conversation. If I am away from my home turf and visiting another city, I consider inviting him for a meal, but this is worked out LONG IN ADVANCE, and I never assume it would be a free extra hour or so. I ask his rate up front for - say - 90 minutes of dinner and an hour of sex after (or before -- as I also ask the guy which he prefers, to eat and play, or play and then eat)... This relieves any misunderstanding on the payment for the time.

 

Sure some guys (especially those who only see one client per evening) might agree to the dinner and not charge, but I always let the escort decide that and never assume or presume his interest in joining me for a meal. I also would never consider it the way some here hint (and I hope I have misread or misunderstood) where the meal is considered in lieu of a tip... A tip is a tip -- no extra services or time necessary IMHO.

 

Right now it is rare I invite any escort for dinner. I have my preferences of dining, wine choice etc. Given this, I do not want to feel like my wallet and generosity are being pushed to a boundary (one escort once suggested one of the most expensive restaurants in NY - a place I would never go under any circumstances. He really misread or misjudged my finances and my generosity).

 

An additional note to the final note -- if I invite an escort out to the theatre, opera, or movies, something that will take up a few hours, I always ask him to let me know how much the TOTAL PACKAGE would cost. Many adjust their rates accordingly, knowing already the price of tickets, the fact that for two or 3 hours they are enjoying a production and not "performing" aside from being nice company. This assumes they like the opera, theatre etc... and I would hesitate to invite a guy accompanying me whose taste runs to metal rock or something to go to the MET with me. But I have - occasionally - had extra tickets to something and offered them to an escort "no strings attached" to go with any friend he wants. I hand the tickets over in whatever manner he likes, which generally does not even include a cup of coffee -- for me "no strings" means no other demands, period.

[unsub2O17]

Was a bit suprised at some of the twists and turns on this thread.

 

Years ago I oftened added a dinner to the date with an escort but always done spontaneously for one major reason that some (including Juan) mentioned: their time is precious and it is none of my business if they have/have not another client right after me or are planning on seeing friends, resting, going to the movies or anything else.

 

I have always felt that if I ask a guy to come to dinner that the hour or more for dinner is always - with no exceptions unless he has said so before hand - ON THE CLOCK. Sure some guys do not charge me their full hourly rate or will adjust it, but that is their choice, not my requirement.

 

As I get older, my dinner choices and needs pre- and post-sex differ. Frankly, I spend so much time making sure I am squeeky clean before any encounter, I refrain from eating for a few hours, and want nothing to interfere with the smell of breath from any oriface. I once had the very unpleasant experience of meeting an escort for a date when he visited NYC -- he asked if we could include dinner, which I went along with -- and he chose a Thai restaurant. Inasmuch as I like to have some ass play, this was a complete disaster for the date that followed (and no amount of mutual showering could help him --- ewwwww).

 

There are occasions too when I meet a guy I like a lot and not just for the sex, but for the other skills and talents he has, including his ability to hold his own in a nice conversation. If I am away from my home turf and visiting another city, I consider inviting him for a meal, but this is worked out LONG IN ADVANCE, and I never assume it would be a free extra hour or so. I ask his rate up front for - say - 90 minutes of dinner and an hour of sex after (or before -- as I also ask the guy which he prefers, to eat and play, or play and then eat)... This relieves any misunderstanding on the payment for the time.

 

Sure some guys (especially those who only see one client per evening) might agree to the dinner and not charge, but I always let the escort decide that and never assume or presume his interest in joining me for a meal. I also would never consider it the way some here hint (and I hope I have misread or misunderstood) where the meal is considered in lieu of a tip... A tip is a tip -- no extra services or time necessary IMHO.

 

Right now it is rare I invite any escort for dinner. I have my preferences of dining, wine choice etc. Given this, I do not want to feel like my wallet and generosity are being pushed to a boundary (one escort once suggested one of the most expensive restaurants in NY - a place I would never go under any circumstances. He really misread or misjudged my finances and my generosity).

 

An additional note to the final note -- if I invite an escort out to the theatre, opera, or movies, something that will take up a few hours, I always ask him to let me know how much the TOTAL PACKAGE would cost. Many adjust their rates accordingly, knowing already the price of tickets, the fact that for two or 3 hours they are enjoying a production and not "performing" aside from being nice company. This assumes they like the opera, theatre etc... and I would hesitate to invite a guy accompanying me whose taste runs to metal rock or something to go to the MET with me. But I have - occasionally - had extra tickets to something and offered them to an escort "no strings attached" to go with any friend he wants. I hand the tickets over in whatever manner he likes, which generally does not even include a cup of coffee -- for me "no strings" means no other demands, period.

 

Wow, A, I had better communicate with my overnight escort fast. I do think that he's planning on dinner, but this may just be a big mistake for a whole number of reasons--most of which have been mentioned on this thread. I eat very little (and drink not at all), and I am a bottom. So, I really wasn't concerned about me. But, what about him?! Wouldn't a knowledgeable escort know better than to suggest and do what you have described??