Oh So Nelly!

[chrismac]

After finishing up a workout at the gym on Saturday morning, I took advantage of library quality of the gym and locker room and decided for once to use the steam room.

 

I had the steam room to myself at first. Then, while struggling to breathe deeply through the thick steam, in walk two studs which I could only describe as "statuesque". I mean, they looked perfect. What bods. I had seen one of them once before when I went to workout in the afternoon - but never in the morning. I made like I didn't notice them as they sat down.

 

The whole image was shattered a few moments later when they began to chat amongst themselves. Out of their open mouths fell butterflies and feathers.

 

Either of these guys could have probably tossed me with ease across the steam room with one arm - if they weren't so worried about breaking a nail :o

 

It just makes me wonder what these guys were like in high school. I have nothing against someone being effemintate - that's part of one's nature and there's little that can be done. But it's the incongruity of the super-masculine body married to a voice like Richard Simmons that is so interesting to me.

 

Oh, I'd happily do either one of them (or better - both at the same time) if they'd have me, don't get me wrong.

[Guest SeaGuy]

Was this a first experience for you with this type of guy? One comes across guys like this in gay neighorhoods in most major US cities. It just part and result of gay gym culture. What annoys me personally are the guys that look and act like big and macho jocks but once you get them in the sack can't and wont do anything more than get fucked like cheap whores. This includes guys with really nice cocks. You would think they could use the equipment they have. x(

[+ Lucky]

(Confidential to chrismac: When struggling to breathe in a steam room, the best idea would be to get out for fresher air.)

 

The image and the reality of gay men can often be strikingly diffferent. Back in 19.. I saw my first hot leather men. They looked scary! But as they approached me, I realized they were nelly queens.

Why, most men mistake me for a butch daddy type when all I really want is to be fucked silly!:9

[Will]

I've noticed the same thing, only in porn flicks. But what's interesting to me is the cognitive dissonance that this particular combination of body and voice creates. (The cognate, of course, would be the perfumed Noel Coward type with the speech patterns of a stevedore.) It goes to show me how deeply conditioned all of our erotic responses are by the storehouse of potential stimuli (of attraction or repulsion) that we carry around in our heads.

 

For example, it seems to me that "perfectly" sculpted gym bods are perhaps the highest form of drag there can be. Like other forms of drag, their purpose is to send a series of complex signals designed to pre-determine the nature of the viewer's response. Both the drag and those signals, of course, originate in the wearer's fantasy that *how he looks* is an index of *who he is,* or perhaps better, *who he would like to appear to be.*

 

Then there is the voice. People who train classical singers will tell you that the sound of one's voice is the product of who we think we are more than of who we would like to seem. Thus, one of the major projects of early voice training is helping the student to identify and correct vocal habits that actually do damage to the whole vocal apparatus, which is to say the whole body. Only after someone has found the unique quality of his own voice can he begin to develop it as an instrument for making works of art. And singers who try to be what they are not, as was the case with the mezzo-soprano Shirley Verrett's attempt to become a dramatic soprano so that she could sing Tosca, can actually destroy the entire instrument, so that they can no longer sing anything at all. In other words, making great music requires great authenticity and artistic integrity on the part of the singer.

 

Manners of speaking -- not only pitch and intonation, but accents, rhythms, and so on -- are partly natural, partly learned. I'm probably not alone in having answered the telephone and been mistaken for my father or brother. Our "raw material," as it were, is exactly the same and thus "Hello" sounds the same, no matter which of us is speaking. We can almost fool ourselves. Beyond that, speech, like the singing voice, is a matter of learning what's natural to me. I probably sound "gay" to most people, because I was born and reared at a certain time and place. In that culture, little boys who were not noticeably aggressive, boisterous, and restlessly physical -- in other words, sweet-tempered, quiet, intellectually-bent little boys like me -- were not little "boys" at all. They weren't "girls" either. They fell somewhere between.

 

Young children develop their economy of self-worth according to the assessments of the praise and blame that their natural behavior elicits. Little boys like me were blamed for being natural; we were blamed for trying to be the "real" boys we weren't, and so retired from a physically active life as much as possible and in middle age grew fat and indolent; we were plamed for trying to be the "girls" we were friendly with, and so turned inward on ourselves and thus never learned how to negotiate sexual -- thus, risky -- relationships with other men.

 

Once we reached sexual maturity and began to look seriously for partners and mates, we really didn't know how to act.

 

Today, thirty years after Stonewall, our own children -- for that is what they are, according to my personal ethic -- go to the gym in order to fashion a "real" boy's body. When they open their mouths to speak, however, what you often hear is the truth.

 

It's interesting to me that gay men now have trained themselves to respond negatively to that dissonance, as I called it. I myself have experienced it and took it at face value as a prejudice. I worked on that prejudice in the same way I've worked on my other stereotype prejudices, and I can attest to the fact that it's rather easy to overcome. What it took in my case was a little understanding, a little compassion, and the humility to acknowledge that what may have repelled me in other men was nothing other than an image of myself.

[Guest ortrud45]

Will:

 

Thanks a lot for your highly interesting post: I totally agree with your statement in the last sentence about the mirror-effect about

our dislikings in other people!

 

Please keep up posting, you really have lots of wisdom and very ba-

lanced opinions, I always like to read you.

 

Have a nice day ortrud45

 

 

PS: Right on target what you said about Shirley Verret, but she was by far not the only famous singer to ruin her voice by forcing her

instrument in a "Fach" it was not made for. But I shall stop here, as going on on this specific and interesting topic should/would be a new thread.

[Will]

I've always wondered why you weren't Elsa45. Maybe because Ortrud is older? Or because she is a contralto?

 

I mentioned Shirley Verret only because I had heard her as Eboli -- she was fabulous -- and then in the late '70s the embarrassing "Live from the Met" broadcast as Flora Tosca. Several years later, in Rome, I made friends with a woman who sort of specialized in training bel canto singers and in putting voices back into the throats they once inhabited.

 

While I was living there, Verret's manager called and asked her, on Verret's part, to attend a recital SV was giving in Rome, and then to have dinner with them afterwards. When my friend asked why, the manager told her that Verret wanted to hire her to put her voice back.

 

So my friend went to the recital, and towards the end of dinner, she outlined what it would take to get Verret to be able to sing Eboli (beautifully) again. Verret didn't mind at all the idea of moving to Rome for a year. But she balked at the basic condition: that she not sing AT ALL, not even in the shower, except during her lessons with my friend, until my friend gave her permission.

 

As my friend the teacher said, there and then was sacrificed a great voice on the altar of ego and Diva-dom. No, it's not the only example, but it's the one I know first-hand.

 

Is there a chat room for opera queens, by the way?

 

Love,

Lohengrin

[Bilbo]

Shameless plug: If you check out one of my sites,

rainbowprod.com/bilbo

you'll find that I offer speaking voice classes. (I have an MFA in Acting and 35 years of experience on stage.)

Personally, I usually find the mix of courage and vulnerability that allows young men like those you met in the steam room to be themselves quite attractive, but if someone wants some help in changing their speaking voice and maybe by doing it improving their own self image and their impact on others, I stand prepared to help.

[Rick Munroe]

>cognitive dissonance

 

>storehouse of potential stimuli

 

Will, Will, Will. This is so unfair of you. We escorts read this site, too, ya know. Can't you please write monosyllabically? We're dumb whores, not brain surgeons. :*

[chrismac]

>For example, it seems to me that "perfectly" sculpted gym

>bods are perhaps the highest form of drag there can be.

>Like other forms of drag, their purpose is to send a series

>of complex signals designed to pre-determine the nature of

>the viewer's response. Both the drag and those signals, of

>course, originate in the wearer's fantasy that *how he

>looks* is an index of *who he is,* or perhaps better, *who

>he would like to appear to be.*

 

Will - that's exactly what I mean. You hit the nail on the head. Do you suppose therefore that some gay men develop their bodies (and this could go for straight men too I suppose) to make up for that? I workout for my health, but also being honest - to attract other men. I'm at the point now where I still don't turn heads at a bar (I'm not "built", just lean), but I'm having better luck considering my age.

 

The intersection of gym culture and gay life is fascinating for me as a study subject, for some reason.

 

>Once we reached sexual maturity and began to look seriously

>for partners and mates, we really didn't know how to act.

>

>Today, thirty years after Stonewall, our own children -- for

>that is what they are, according to my personal ethic -- go

>to the gym in order to fashion a "real" boy's body. When

>they open their mouths to speak, however, what you often

>hear is the truth.

 

Again - I'm fascinated by this idea. Has anyone found any studies done on this?

 

Great post Will.

[Guest ortrud45]

Dear Lohengrin

 

We (you, Bilbo and me) definitely have highjacked this "Oh so Nelly"-thread now and I'm positive we shall get scolded for doing so!}>

 

To answer your questions:

 

1) My choice of ortrud 45 over Elsa 45 has nothing to do with age: Whilst the latter has beautiful music to sing I find her to be such a boring character. Opposite to her Ortrud has a dramatic lively, more faceted part and a reactionary intriguer-personality, much more fascinating!

But I'm not to be identified with her characterwise!

(At a lesser degree a great Eboli or a fantastic Amneris can put an ever so beautifully singing Elisabetta or Aida out of the lime-light

and win the public over in a storm, because they too are richer, ir-

ridescent ranged personae).

 

2) Chatrooms for opera-queens: I know one, but's it's located in Europe and the discussions are in German, sorry to say! (But I guess you have some knowledge of German as an avid opera-lover, besides having our mutual interest in escorts?) :9

 

Lohengrin/Will, have you ever molested the swan? Best regards, an

inquiring ortrud45 would like to know!?!:-(

[+ Lucky]

Monosylabically! I loved it!

[Guest SeaGuy]

<It's interesting to me that gay men now have trained themselves to respond negatively to that dissonance>

 

Your use of the word dissonance is completely appropriate and your remarks about gay gym built bodies being the "ultimate form of drag" are right on the money. It is worthwhile remembering that dissonance and contrast is widely used of in music and can play a vital role within a musical phrase and a score. It can be made beautiful and meaningful. It is also worthwhile remembering that voices seldom fall right within categorical lines and that operatic roles may contrast with the voices they were written for, the most obvious case being the great heroic roles for castratti in Baroque and early opera, often cast as womens' "trouser" or drag roles though recently countertenors have had a resurgence in popularity and have performed these parts. That is art however, in life things are rather different.

Speaking solely for myself, in real life I prefer the company of natural and unaffected people, not "macho" or "fem" divas. I find macho posturing from gay or straight men( often they're even more vain than gay men) disagreable to live with and difficult even to put up with. A body built up from long hours of work at the gym( and sometimes steroid use, but that is another matter)is in my eyes and judgment completely false and seperate from true athleticism and "masculinity" or "virility". It may be satisfying to look at as sculpture but I wouldn't want to bring it home with me if it represents the sum total of a person's being and accomplishments. x(

[Will]

>Again - I'm fascinated by this idea. Has anyone found any

>studies done on this?

>

>Great post Will.

 

Thanks so much, Chrismac. Coming from you, I take it as a double compliment. There probably have been a whole bunch of sociological studies done about the psycho-sexual aspects of sport. But I'd be willing to bet that nobody has written on it from a gay, as well as a humanistic, viewpoint. Unfortunately, I don't think I've ever come across anything that I would call non-fiction "literature" on this topic. After all, it's fairly new, as the widespread, public eroticization of the male body is a quite recent phenomenon. Doubtless there are tons of dissertations in the making even as I write. The problem is, I think, that the really interesting material is fugitive under the blinding, colorless glare of social-science quantitative methods, Post-Modern criticism, and all the other notions that Duke University Press publishes on its "Queer Studies" list. I also think that it takes a long and reflective life to cope with this stuff. I've never met a graduate student yet, no matter how bright, who could grapple with these issues in a way that I would want to read except as reference work.

[Will]

Before I forget it, I meant to suggest in the post above that this is precisely the kind of truth/wisdom/insight that is better handled with art than with craft. In other words, that is the germ of an important novel. And just in case I haven't hammered the point flat enough, you are the only one who can write it.

 

If you want further encouragement, send me a private and I'll give you my phone number.

[phage]

Another perspective (and this comes from someone who has been chastised on this board for preferring my men “straight acting”) is that these guys have built their bodies up to a point where they are comfortable and confident enough to throw off the yoke of masculine behavior and let that inner girl shine through! They are taking control of their life and creating the kind of body they want and they are also behaving the way the want.

 

I know I’m not expressing this well. I totally agree that it creates a certain sense of dissonance and it would blow the entire image for me, but I have to admire the fact that they say, “the hell with it” and act the way they choose to act. (I assume that any guy with the discipline to get that kind of body could muster the discipline to keep the flame on low.)

[+ Charlie]

While sitting in a restaurant on 8th Ave. in Chelsea recently, watching the passing parade on the street, I was struck by the number of nelly little queens with bodies that would have done credit to an Olympic gymnast. In my youth, young men of that persuasion wouldn't have dreamed of body building--their goal was to look as much like girls as they could get away with. Something in the culture has definitely changed to make them feel that a muscular build will attract men who will treat them like women. But it is beyond my ability to analyze it right now, except to say that Will's notion of muscles as a new form of drag sounds promising.

[CT Dick]

For years a friend has used the phrase:

 

"Great body but he flunked the oral." }>

 

Dick

[btmstudnyc]

OHHHHH So NELLY....

 

I got a kick out of this little discussion....SOME so serious and some so witty.

 

I remember this one time on fire island....this gorgeous guy cruised me..He started talking to me and kept commenting on how masculine I was and how much he liked my voice and finally we made it back to his bed. I got him really worked up. Then he heard one of his housemates chatting and said..."I hate that....he sounds like a fucking girl."

 

So I raised my hands over my head and turned to him and said GIRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRL!!!

I have never been slapped so hard in the face in my life. So I pushed him off the bed and he wrestled me down and we had really great sex. He kept his hand over my mouth so that I couldn't camp it up...I was laughing so hard that I couldn't fight back....needless to say he fucked me silly. He realized how silly his comment was but couldn't bear to hear me go on....

 

Geez, I don't mind a good camping trip once in a while...but hell....NOT ALL of us like CAMPING all the time. Just keep your life in perspective!!!

 

Jim

 

btmstudnyc@aol.com

:+

[bluenix]

>For example, it seems to me that "perfectly" sculpted gym

>bods are perhaps the highest form of drag there can be.

>Like other forms of drag, their purpose is to send a series

>of complex signals designed to pre-determine the nature of

>the viewer's response. Both the drag and those signals, of

>course, originate in the wearer's fantasy that *how he

>looks* is an index of *who he is,* or perhaps better, *who

>he would like to appear to be.*

 

Huh? Exercise is a form of artifice and a denial of an authentic self?

 

If anything "pre-determines" a response, it's that physical fitness is a gay cultural norm, and both the beholder and the beheld share this value in common (presumably). If the hunk turns out to be a nelly queen, anyone struck by that just has a divergent set of norms when it comes to behavior, of which voice is merely the avatar.

 

I claim.

[Gigiloz4me]

The core of your question speaks to self-prejudice. If we in the gay community can't resist the 'rush of dominance' by judging our brothers; how effective can we be in defending our human rights and the alike?

 

You'd have to examine why you 'see a contrsdiction' and why it make you feel good to judge it.

[BewareofNick]

>(Confidential to chrismac: When struggling to breathe in a

>steam room, the best idea would be to get out for fresher

>air.)

>

>The image and the reality of gay men can often be strikingly

>diffferent. Back in 19.. I saw my first hot leather men.

>They looked scary! But as they approached me, I realized

>they were nelly queens.

>Why, most men mistake me for a butch daddy type when all I

>really want is to be fucked silly!:9

 

Back in 19? My God, I didn't realize you were that old!!! Good heavens!!!