why bother to tell when you're treated like this?

[N.N.]

I have had all kinds of reactions when I tell an escort I am HIV+.

Some have no problem with it. Some refuse a session, which I

fully accept (I've had good conversations with escorts who refused,

and we parted with mutual respect).

 

But some escorts flake, in the sense of saying it's OK (or at least

not saying no) and then refusing to respond to emails or calls after

that. That I find annoying. I always assure escorts that I can accept

whatever they choose, and that all I ask is for an honest response.

(And... I say that I am only looking to do things that both the

escort and I deem to be safe.)

 

This week, an escort performed a variation on the flake theme.

When I asked if he could take me as a client, he wrote back to say

"I appreciate your honesty and have not really even thought about it??

I will educate myself a little more on the issue and get back to you

Thanks for being honest - talk to you soon "

...and that was the last I heard from him. He did not respond to

a friendly email I sent checking in with him after that.

 

I was taken aback by his response. It seemed strange that a

college student who's escorting in 2010 had never even thought

about whether he could take a client with HIV. I took it at face

value; I thought he was telling me how it really was. But his

subsequent failure to get back to me as promised now gives me

reason to take anything he says or has said with a grain of salt.

 

His silence especially rankles in this case because he says he's

not like this. One of the reasons I chose him in the first

place was his ad, which says "I'm serious about this and am

professional in my response to your email and will get back to

you promptly." Yet another guy who knows how to put all

the right words in his ad, but doesn't mean what he says.

 

I think some guys can't bear to turn someone down. Maybe they

think it's a failure on their part, maybe they don't like dealing with

a sad disappointed client. I go out of my way to tell them I won't be

upset if they refuse to see me, but that doesn't stop guys from flaking.

 

Escorts: just tell the truth. It is not easy for some clients to volunteer

the information that they are HIV+. Every time you flake in a

situation like this, you make a client wonder why they even bothered

to tell you. If you treat the clients who never bring up their HIV

status well and treat the clients who volunteer the information badly,

you are discouraging us from being upfront with you. Think about it.

I continue to tell escorts my status, but not everyone does or will.

[josephga]

I agree with you that they should just say yes or no once you tell them your status. the title of your thread is titled why bother to tell when you're treated like this? Regardless of their reaction or response the law is you have too tell anyone you are going to be sexually active with that you are positive. If you don't and they find out later you can face criminal charges..

[N.N.]

Regardless of their reaction or response the law is you have too tell anyone you are going to be sexually active with that you are positive. If you don't and they find out later you can face criminal charges..

True.

The title refers to a thought that definitely crosses many clients' minds,

and yes, the law is one answer to the question.

[+ azdr0710]

your hoped-for escort this week responded very nicely at first, it seems.....he was taken aback, it appears, and did want time to think about it....I think he then decided he didn't want the risk (however small it may be), didn't know how to let you down in a reply, so he just decided not to reply at all....he may not have known how important a reply was to you from him in particular....

 

your volunteering your status is entirely honest and respectful...I hope you don't change your policy of "bothering" to tell!....it's the right thing to do.....

[Guest greatness]

Sorry

 

That you have to go through this.

[+ Lucky]

In principle one should disclose whenever there will be an exchange of fluids, but the remark that josephga made above is not exactly the law- at least in California.

 

AIDS Project Los Angeles Barebacking & HIV Disclosure: What's the Law?

 

by Brad Sears

May 2000

If you are HIV-positive, dating and sex always involve the sticky questions of if, when, and how to disclose your HIV-status. Should you do it before you have sex? During the first date? Only if asked? Only if it becomes "serious"? For each individual, the answers to these questions evolve from a blend of ethical, personal and practical considerations. People living with HIV have strongly advocated every position from "when you first meet" to "never."

At the point when you decide to have sex, however, the disclosure question is no longer solely up to you and your conscience. At that point, your decisions may have legal ramifications. Failing to disclose your HIV status to your partner may make you vulnerable to criminal prosecution or to being sued by your sexual partner.

Criminal convictions for exposing another person to HIV through sex are rare. Since the beginning of the AIDS epidemic, more than 300 people have been criminally prosecuted for exposing another person to HIV. Only a fraction of these cases involve exposure through consensual sex. (The others involve activities such as biting, scratching and spitting, or violent sex crimes such as rape or forcible sodomy.)

 

Advertisement

Of the cases involving sex, most have been brought against female prostitutes (and not their male customers) or by military prosecutors against military personnel. Less than one-sixth of these cases have resulted in convictions, and more than half of the convictions have been against military personnel. While most of these prosecutions have proceeded under general criminal laws such as attempted murder, aggravated assault with a deadly weapon, attempted manslaughter and manslaughter, a number of states have passed specific statutes that make it a crime for a person to expose another to HIV through sexual activity.

 

 

California's "Willful Exposure" Law

 

The law makes it a felony punishable by up to eight years of imprisonment for an HIV-positive person to "willfully expose" another person to HIV through unprotected sex. The law is narrowly drafted, however, so that it only applies to individuals who intend to infect others with HIV through sex. It is designed to prosecute cases like one in New York, where one man infected more than a dozen young women, not to police every sexual encounter engaged in by people living with HIV.

To be prosecuted under the law, you would have to do all of the following:

 

1. Have anal or vaginal sex. You cannot be prosecuted for oral sex. As to anal and vaginal sex, the law applies equally to men and women; tops and bottoms. The law punishes exposing someone to HIV through these types of sex. Your sexual partner does not have to actually become infected.
   
2. Know that you are HIV-positive. You cannot be prosecuted for sex that you had before you knew that you were HIV-positive.
   
3. Fail to disclose your HIV status. If you disclose before insertion, you cannot be prosecuted.
   
4. Fail to use a condom. Even if you do not disclose, you cannot be prosecuted unless you have "unprotected sex." The law defines "unprotected sex" as failing to use a condom. This means that every inserting penis has to be covered. Even if you are on the receiving end, you have a legal obligation to make sure that your partner wears a condom.
   
5. Have the "specific intent" to infect the other person. Most likely, this element will prevent the statute from being used to harass people living with HIV. To be prosecuted, you have to engage in the sexual activity with the specific intention of infecting the other person with HIV. Just knowing that you had HIV when you had sex will not be enough. The law explicitly states that: "Evidence that the person had knowledge of his or her HIV-positive status, without additional evidence, shall not be sufficient to prove specific intent." Because of this specific-intent requirement, the law is narrowed in scope to only cover individuals who want to infect other people, and who are probably expressing that desire. If you slip up one time, it's unlikely that you will be prosecuted. However, the best way to stay clear of this law, and other legal liabilities, is to always disclose your status and/or practice safer sex.
   

 

 

A Comparatively Lenient Law

 

While California's willful exposure law may seem like just another way to make scapegoats out of people living with HIV, it is extremely lenient in the context of similar legislation that has been passed in other states. The AIDS Policy Center in Washington, D.C., reports that 27 other states have established criminal penalties for knowingly transmitting or exposing another person to HIV. Most of these statutes have been passed as the result of political grandstanding by social conservatives and the religious right.

Unlike the California statute, under most of these state statutes individuals can be prosecuted if they know they are infected and engage in sexual intercourse without disclosure. Some of the laws are even more broad and vague. In Alabama, you can be prosecuted for "conducting oneself in a manner likely to transmit the disease," and in South Carolina, for "exposing another person to HIV without first informing."

 

 

Other Legal Liabilities

 

How the law will impact prosecutions under California's general criminal laws, such as attempted murder, is not clear. It is likely that prosecutors will move toward restricting suits unless the elements of the willful exposure statute can be met. Prosecutions under the general law have been rare in California, and have usually accompanied charges of violent sex crimes.

However, some of these general criminal laws do not require specific intent. For these crimes, a conviction can rest on proving recklessness or criminal negligence. Because the potential still remains for prosecution under these general criminal laws, you should not risk relying on the specific intent requirement of the willful exposure statute to avoid liability. The best policy to protect yourself from any criminal liability is to disclose to your sexual partners and to use a condom.

 

 

Civil Cases Brought to Trial

 

Following these precautions will also protect you from civil liability. In addition to criminal prosecutions, a number of civil cases have been brought in which individuals sue sexual partners with HIV disease for monetary damages. These cases proceed under the tort theories of negligence, battery, fraud and intentional infliction of emotional distress. The most famous of these cases occurred in California. Mark Christian, the sexual partner of Rock Hudson, sued Hudson's estate and received a jury award of $5.5 million. Christian claimed that, despite his repeated inquiries, Hudson and his private secretary denied that Hudson had HIV. Christian won this award even though he did not become infected. Like most civil cases, he claimed as damages the emotional stress caused by being exposed to the virus, not actual infection.

Other civil cases have not faired as well. These cases are frequently dismissed because the plaintiff cannot allege the necessary facts. Criminal statutes are often used by civil courts to set the standard for what type of conduct is considered negligent. California civil courts may dismiss negligence claims unless the infected person's conduct meets the requirements of the new willful exposure statue.

To sum up, if you have safer sex and disclose your status to your sexual partners, you will not violate California's willful exposure law, and will protect yourself from any form of criminal or civil liability.

Brad Sears is the Legal Check-Up attorney in the HIV/AIDS Legal Services Alliance. This article originally was published in the November 1998 edition of Positive Living.

 

 

 

[+ Lucky]

So, getting back to N.N.'s post, what he discusses happens in all contexts, not just escort and client. Many people do not even know their status, so disclosure isn't even on the menu. When an honest person like N.N. discloses, he does take the chance that certain people will reject him. In my opinion, that is an ignorant response on the part of the person doing the rejecting, as many sexual activities can take place that do not place another at risk of HIV. Knowing the status of the other person is actually an advantage, since when you don't know, and operate under a false assumption, you may take risks that you otherwise wouldn't.

 

In my opinion, N.N. should wait to make his disclosure until he is actually with the escort. It's easy to reject someone over the phone, it's not so easy in person. Discussing the matter in person allows both to talk about any concerns they might have, and make a decision as to how the encounter can proceed safely. If the escort is still uncomfortable, then the session can be canceled, with some payment made to compensate the escort for his time.

 

That's just my thought on this.

[rvwnsd]

It is unfortunate that you have to go through this. The escort who had to "educate himself" and then failed to reply behaved badly. He said he would reply and didn't. Makes me wonder what else he might misrepresent.

 

On one hand, I like Lucky's idea of discussing your status in person. It is harder to reject out-of-hand in person and it does lend itself to having a conversation. On the other hand, if the escort declines to move forward, there is no session. At least if he declines by e-mail in advance you can contact someone else.

[+ deej]

But some escorts flake, in the sense of saying it's OK (or at least

not saying no) and then refusing to respond to emails or calls after

that. That I find annoying. I always assure escorts that I can accept

whatever they choose, and that all I ask is for an honest response.

(And... I say that I am only looking to do things that both the

escort and I deem to be safe.)

 

I don't want to steal your thunder but some of us get that treatment even without mentioning HIV status. In fact, from watching message traffic here over the last decade it almost seems like the normal way things go!

 

It may not be your HIV status.

 

Just sayin' .......

[KMEM]

I agree it isn't just this business but any business where folks fail to follow up on leads, calls, inquiries, etc. It seems if there is the least little obstacle to over come, potential customers just get dropped. Totally amazing to me how some companies stay in business with no one looking after the "store".

 

Not so sure about meeting in person to discuss HIV status. As they say about trying to make love to a pig; you probably won't get much satisfaction and will only annoy the pig.

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[N.N.]

I agree it isn't just this business but any business where folks fail to follow up on leads, calls, inquiries, etc.

It can happen in any business but escorts in general have been less professional than anyone else I deal with. People who charge a fraction of the hourly rate that escorts charge have been more reliable. In general-- there are of course also some escorts who treat you well.

[N.N.]

As far as telling the guy in person rather than over the phone,

most of us want to know beforehand that an escort will do what

we're interested in before committing to paying them for their time.

And I am looking at two hours round trip travel time to meet escorts,

time that is wasted if it turns out they don't want to do anything.

[Guest Hottiewithabody]

Escorts Perspective

 

Im so sorry that you have to go thru what your going thru.

 

I think it is of upmost Importance that all communication is very open before/during booking a clinet as there are no mis understandings or disapointments after the session.

 

On a personal level I just wouldnt risk it. At the same time It does strike a chord that you are so open about it as some people may simply not be as open.

[KMEM]

It can happen in any business but escorts in general have been less professional than anyone else I deal with. People who charge a fraction of the hourly rate that escorts charge have been more reliable. In general-- there are of course also some escorts who treat you well.

 

Of course. People who argue that paying someone more money will get them to do a better job are wasting their time telling me that. People do what they are supposed to do because of a committment or their upbringing or their moral character or a combination of all of those. I think some on the borderline who would prefer to do the "right thing" can be led to do so, but that may well be a different topic.

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[seaboy4hire]

I have had all kinds of reactions when I tell an escort I am HIV+.

Some have no problem with it. Some refuse a session, which I

fully accept (I've had good conversations with escorts who refused,

and we parted with mutual respect).

 

But some escorts flake, in the sense of saying it's OK (or at least

not saying no) and then refusing to respond to emails or calls after

that. That I find annoying. I always assure escorts that I can accept

whatever they choose, and that all I ask is for an honest response.

(And... I say that I am only looking to do things that both the

escort and I deem to be safe.)

 

This week, an escort performed a variation on the flake theme.

When I asked if he could take me as a client, he wrote back to say

"I appreciate your honesty and have not really even thought about it??

I will educate myself a little more on the issue and get back to you

Thanks for being honest - talk to you soon "

...and that was the last I heard from him. He did not respond to

a friendly email I sent checking in with him after that.

 

I was taken aback by his response. It seemed strange that a

college student who's escorting in 2010 had never even thought

about whether he could take a client with HIV. I took it at face

value; I thought he was telling me how it really was. But his

subsequent failure to get back to me as promised now gives me

reason to take anything he says or has said with a grain of salt.

 

His silence especially rankles in this case because he says he's

not like this. One of the reasons I chose him in the first

place was his ad, which says "I'm serious about this and am

professional in my response to your email and will get back to

you promptly." Yet another guy who knows how to put all

the right words in his ad, but doesn't mean what he says.

 

I think some guys can't bear to turn someone down. Maybe they

think it's a failure on their part, maybe they don't like dealing with

a sad disappointed client. I go out of my way to tell them I won't be

upset if they refuse to see me, but that doesn't stop guys from flaking.

 

Escorts: just tell the truth. It is not easy for some clients to volunteer

the information that they are HIV+. Every time you flake in a

situation like this, you make a client wonder why they even bothered

to tell you. If you treat the clients who never bring up their HIV

status well and treat the clients who volunteer the information badly,

you are discouraging us from being upfront with you. Think about it.

I continue to tell escorts my status, but not everyone does or will.

 

N.N. I hope you never second guess telling others your status. I feel for too many years at the start of the spread of hiv and aids too many probably felt a lot of shame and kept quiet. Be proud and speak up and educate those that are not as educated. Some days it is easier to be open about your status then others but remember it's always worth it at the end to be open about it. I say this being someone who is also positive and even though it is in my profiles I still mention it because many get caught up in the pictures they don't read the texts of profiles and fail to notice I mention I am positive. Hence after mentioning it in my first email reply I often to do not hear back from the client. So really it goes both ways. But there are many sex positive workers out there and there are two here on the board that are really great guys. One I've had the pleasure of hanging out with (non sexually) a couple times when our paths have crossed and the the other I've hung out with and even had the pleasure of working with as well. I was deeply honored that despite my status he was educated on the ins and outs and what was safe and what he felt comfortable doing. If you go through some of the profiles on some of the other sites you can find escorts who are positive. There once was a time another positive escort participated on the mc but he's since retired. As for the suggestion of making an appointment and then springing the news I don't think that is a good idea. It puts the escort in a very uncomfortable situation and not knowing his personality or level of professionalism could put you in a bad situation. So I'd suggest continuing to mention your status in the emails. Plus that gives the escort time to think, educate himself by either looking up info on the cdc's website or asking his Dr. and then hopefully getting back to you. I've been wracking my brain on how to put this down in words (I'm not much of a writer) but I hope that this helps in some way.

 

Hugs,

Greg

[+ deej]

I've been wracking my brain on how to put this down in words (I'm not much of a writer) but I hope that this helps in some way.

 

You may need a spanking for grammar (or just the fun of it ), but your writing skills are just fine. That was well said!

[seaboy4hire]

You may need a spanking for grammar (or just the fun of it), but your writing skills are just fine. That was well said!

 

I keep telling myself no posting on the mc till I've had at least one full cup of coffee and I keep forgetting LOL. I'm still working on the first cup of the day. Time to finish that one up, hop in the shower and run to the store. I'm in the mood to do some cooking and baking. I'm thinking spaghetti and some kind of cupcake like a Kahlua chocolate one.

 

Hugs,

Greg

[Mocha]

You can thank all the AIDS organizations out there, big Pharma and all associated with them for the incessant fear of an HIV status. Its one of the only illness I know where people would 'kill themselves' upon being 'told' (without actually dissecting said HIV particle) I can imagine many people out there haven't done research beyond online gay advertisements for HIV meds and news articles.

 

I know everyone may not agree with this, but my philosophy is: If we're both having protected sex anyhow, what is the purpose of disclosing anything having to do with past, present or future diseases anyhow? Someone who says nothing or doesn't know (or care) can be just as infested as someone who discloses everything.

 

Unless you're going to be barebacking and drinking spunk, I wouldn't see a reason for saying anything upfront. Mind you, these people don't know you from a hole in the wall. People make assumptions pre-maturely. One can argue 'condoms break', but they also break on people who are negative, or who dont disclose their status also.

 

You wouldn't disclose to a potential date that you're knee deep in debt, that you never loved anyone, or that you've been diagnosed with cancer. Being 'branded' with having HIV is no different. Its a topic that is unnecessary to be brung up on the 1st few emails. And it shouldn't be brung up at all if you're wearing protection anyhow.

[KMEM]

This has been discussed many times before. I think any thing that MIGHT be of significance should be disclosed, whether it be a cold, the flu, chicken pox or HIV. Then, two rational people can make a considered decision together. I realize that might be a new concept to some but there it is.

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[raulgmanzo]

It sucks that you have been forthright and others have not given you the same courtesy.

It may be that some of it can be blamed on email but I know it is also human nature to avoid

things that make us uncomfortable.

 

Sometimes I am a bit uncomfortable when I am told someone is HIV+ in the same way I am uncomfortable

when I am reminded of HIV in just about any manner or when hearing that someone has cancer, a cold or jock itch. That is I mean it is something that we all wish didn't exist and I think it is human nature to recoil a bit upon hearing of any "unpleasant" health "issue" even if it is not contagious or not likely to be transmitted in whatever setting.

 

Having said that I happily accept clients who are HIV+ and I assume quite frankly that many of my clients and lots of casual hookups are HIV+. I always use a condom, period. And though I am negative as of my last test I think it fair for others to not take my word on that.

 

I have had all kinds of reactions when I tell an escort I am HIV+.

Some have no problem with it. Some refuse a session, which I

fully accept (I've had good conversations with escorts who refused,

and we parted with mutual respect).

 

But some escorts flake, in the sense of saying it's OK (or at least

not saying no) and then refusing to respond to emails or calls after

that. That I find annoying. I always assure escorts that I can accept

whatever they choose, and that all I ask is for an honest response.

(And... I say that I am only looking to do things that both the

escort and I deem to be safe.)

 

This week, an escort performed a variation on the flake theme.

When I asked if he could take me as a client, he wrote back to say

"I appreciate your honesty and have not really even thought about it??

I will educate myself a little more on the issue and get back to you

Thanks for being honest - talk to you soon "

...and that was the last I heard from him. He did not respond to

a friendly email I sent checking in with him after that.

 

I was taken aback by his response. It seemed strange that a

college student who's escorting in 2010 had never even thought

about whether he could take a client with HIV. I took it at face

value; I thought he was telling me how it really was. But his

subsequent failure to get back to me as promised now gives me

reason to take anything he says or has said with a grain of salt.

 

His silence especially rankles in this case because he says he's

not like this. One of the reasons I chose him in the first

place was his ad, which says "I'm serious about this and am

professional in my response to your email and will get back to

you promptly." Yet another guy who knows how to put all

the right words in his ad, but doesn't mean what he says.

 

I think some guys can't bear to turn someone down. Maybe they

think it's a failure on their part, maybe they don't like dealing with

a sad disappointed client. I go out of my way to tell them I won't be

upset if they refuse to see me, but that doesn't stop guys from flaking.

 

Escorts: just tell the truth. It is not easy for some clients to volunteer

the information that they are HIV+. Every time you flake in a

situation like this, you make a client wonder why they even bothered

to tell you. If you treat the clients who never bring up their HIV

status well and treat the clients who volunteer the information badly,

you are discouraging us from being upfront with you. Think about it.

I continue to tell escorts my status, but not everyone does or will.

[JackTwist]

N.N., I admire your candor, honesty and courage. Please don't let the "bad apples" discourage you from being truthful to working guys regarding your hiv status. You have taken the high road and I commend you for doing the "right thing"--even when some guys don't reciprocate. Stay Healthy and Strong.

[N.N.]

Thanks to everyone who has spoken up.

I appreciate the kind words of encouragement.

 

And to Greg: I give you a lot of credit for being

open about your hiv status. And I second what

deej said: you expressed yourself just fine.

[Guest novabear22031]

As one that "hires" from time to time. And one that has "free sex" from time to time. I treat all as being POZ.

 

I have a greater respect for those that are POZ and admit it. No cloak and dagger so to speak. We can be more honest as to what both of us will and will not do at certain times. In the end it is about mutual respect of each other.

[Guest novabear22031]

Thanks to everyone who has spoken up.

I appreciate the kind words of encouragement.

 

And to Greg: I give you a lot of credit for being

open about your hiv status. And I second what

deej said: you expressed yourself just fine.

 

Dare I say Greg is a guy/escort that I have been wanting meet. We shared many a chat/email - and he is a sweet guy IMO. <blush>

 

From his post:

 

N.N. I hope you never second guess telling others your status. I feel for too many years at the start of the spread of hiv and aids too many probably felt a lot of shame and kept quiet. Be proud and speak up and educate those that are not as educated. Some days it is easier to be open about your status then others but remember it's always worth it at the end to be open about it. I say this being someone who is also positive and even though it is in my profiles I still mention it because many get caught up in the pictures they don't read the texts of profiles and fail to notice I mention I am positive. Hence after mentioning it in my first email reply I often to do not hear back from the client. So really it goes both ways. But there are many sex positive workers out there and there are two here on the board that are really great guys. One I've had the pleasure of hanging out with (non sexually) a couple times when our paths have crossed and the the other I've hung out with and even had the pleasure of working with as well. I was deeply honored that despite my status he was educated on the ins and outs and what was safe and what he felt comfortable doing. If you go through some of the profiles on some of the other sites you can find escorts who are positive. There once was a time another positive escort participated on the mc but he's since retired. As for the suggestion of making an appointment and then springing the news I don't think that is a good idea. It puts the escort in a very uncomfortable situation and not knowing his personality or level of professionalism could put you in a bad situation. So I'd suggest continuing to mention your status in the emails. Plus that gives the escort time to think, educate himself by either looking up info on the cdc's website or asking his Dr. and then hopefully getting back to you. I've been wracking my brain on how to put this down in words (I'm not much of a writer) but I hope that this helps in some way.

 

Hugs,

Greg

 

I will offer sort of a counter point (sorry Greg)... but I came out in '77-78... How i did not join in the passing of my many friends and partners - I just count my blessings there. So for that I will not judge on ones HIV status. I only ask as HIV- guy - not to judge my values on mine....

 

Meaning you can be neg and love BB, or POZ and play safe... Better to know than not to know right now. 30 years ago we did not have much choice or chance...

[Guest novabear22031]

I don't want to steal your thunder but some of us get that treatment even without mentioning HIV status. In fact, from watching message traffic here over the last decade it almost seems like the normal way things go!

 

It may not be your HIV status.

 

Just sayin' .......

 

 

Just been on both sides of the coin on HIV status... I am neg here after so many years thankfully...

 

But had an FB that wanted to join me another FB that got an attitude that I was honest that our playmate was POZ...

 

To be blunt I have not talked with him since - he is a horndog that will do him. He even bragged about being BB backed by a stud a month ago. WTF?