Toyota is Dead

[KMEM]

Are you suggesting that MSN, IBM and even Apple are not hilarious from time to time?

 

I thought not.

 

When the one and only engine in a single engine aircraft shuts down, not only steering but life in general becomes MORE difficult.

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[+ purplekow]

In an interview the driver said he did not put the car in neutral as he was concerned he would miss and put the car in reverse and lose control. Turning off the Prius would have turned off the power to the power steeing making controlling the car very difficult at 90 miles an hour. I am just surprised the police caught up to him so easily at the rate of speed he was going, the whole even lasted 20 minutes or so I believe.

[wayout]

In an interview the driver said he did not put the car in neutral as he was concerned he would miss and put the car in reverse and lose control. Turning off the Prius would have turned off the power to the power steeing making controlling the car very difficult at 90 miles an hour. I am just surprised the police caught up to him so easily at the rate of speed he was going, the whole even lasted 20 minutes or so I believe.

 

 

My recollection may be wrong, but I remember about a year ago driving along and accidentally shifting into reverse (I was playing around when I shouldn't have with the gear shift) and all that happened was the engine stopped/stalled out and no loss of control. I am guessing that there is some safety interlock to prevent going from drive to reverse causing damage and/or loss of control.

[AdamSmith]

Will we ever get a computer that could make a living as a comic?

 

As KMEM says, we already got one! Or several.

 

...Imagine a cocktail party where all the guests are a bunch of Toyota control circuits:

 

"You should have seen the look on my driver's face when I zoomed him right through that red light!"

 

"Hah! But that was nothing. Lemme tell you about the time that I..."

 

[Guest DuchessIvanaKizznhugg]

Just call me an old fool but one who is aware of what is going on around me.

 

The absolutely best kind!

 

[AdamSmith]

can we be happy with the computer controlled world?

 

Not in the least bit (as HAL in fact said ). I don't mean to approve, only to describe.

 

But, again, given the trajectories all around, seems it must get worse before it can get better.

[CowboyUp]

What would you do?

 

If you had paid cash to purchase your 72-year old mother a 2010 Toyota Camry a year ago because these vehicles were rated high in safety and dependability, what would YOU do now?

I thought I was doing the "prudent thing" by getting her a reliable Toyota. Now, I'm very worried for her to drive the damn thing even though the recall repairs have been completed. The trade-in value of her car has plummeted, too.

[+ Charlie]

I would make sure she knows how to stop the car if it unintentionally accelerates, which it probably won't, and stop worrying about it. Even the trade-in value may have returned in a couple of years, when the present frenzy gets straightened out. I worry more about an elderly parent's (or my elderly partner's) driving skills than about the car.

[Sparky12]

I drive a 2008 Prius. Happens to be the same color as that guy's. Am I scared to drive it? Not in the least. First of all, the media is focused on anything that smells like Toyota trouble. This would hardly have made every major news service if it had been another brand of car. Second of all, the guy's responses as to why he was afraid to try this or that - putting the car in neutral or turning off the ignition, make it clear that he didn't even read the car's manual. You CAN'T switch into reverse when the car is going forward, any more than you can switch into park. There are actually mechanical governors that prevent it. You can push the "Park" button, but the locking pins don't engage unless the car is traveling below 7 mph. Centrifugal force from the rotating transmission prevents them from coming into play. It's basic physics and it's in the manual. "Little" things like this make it apparent that the guy wasn't familiar with his vehicle, and I think it's generally a good idea to know what you're doing when you're pushing around a ton of metal and plastic at high speed.

 

Of course considering that the controls are all electronic and trying to shift gears or shut off the power could indeed be subject to a software glitch too, it's good to have a backup plan. I wonder why it didn't occur to him to try the parking break, but instead that only came up after a 20 minute ordeal and at a cop's suggestion? The parking break IS strictly mechanical. Again, lack of driver awareness. Oh, and shutting off the power doesn't lock the Prius' steering or wheel position. And power steering is more useful at SLOW speeds. Plus the Prius steering is strictly mechanical. Mine is powered down in the garage right now and I can still turn the steering wheel and the tires move. If he had tried to shut off the power and been successful, at high speeds he would have had no steering difficulty. That's what "Variable Assist Power Steering" means.

 

So we have a driver who was unfamiliar with his vehicle and even the basic physical concepts of driving a car. Something got stuck. All of his assumptions were incorrect and it led to the situation being far worse than it could have been.

 

Couple more interesting articles from the NY Times. This one is by someone who worked on information gathering about the victims of the Audi sudden acceleration problem years ago. The consensus? Likely driver error:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/11/opinion/11schmidt.html?scp=1&sq=accelerate&st=cse

 

And this tidbit, once again detailing how once the media gets a hold of something, it gets blown all out of proportion:

 

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010/03/10/business/AP-US-Prius-Panic.html?scp=2&sq=prius&st=cse

 

Am I a diehard Prius fanboy? No, I'm just not afraid to drive my vehicle since I've studied it as I would any new car - particularly one with new technologies involved. And I have an understanding of the principles on which it's based, and basic physics. Plus I had the car checked from head to toe this past Saturday. It needed an oil change anyway!

[Sparky12]

Just reading a bit more of this thread - EVERY Prius owner should know that it takes a 3 second button push to shut the car off. That's to avoid an accidental shutdown even given the placement of the button to avoid an accidental push.

 

There's no emergency brake to "pull up", it's a pedal next to the brake pedal like an old fashion car. And it ratchets into place to maintain the pressure.

 

Another option for the transmission - I think most Prius drivers forget that it has the equivalent of a low gear setting too, the "B" setting. That keeps the regenerative braking elements engaged. It's for long downhill runs where you'd have to wear out your brakes in a traditional car. That's the first thing he should have tried.

[KMEM]

If you had paid cash to purchase your 72-year old mother a 2010 Toyota Camry a year ago because these vehicles were rated high in safety and dependability, what would YOU do now?

I thought I was doing the "prudent thing" by getting her a reliable Toyota. Now, I'm very worried for her to drive the damn thing even though the recall repairs have been completed. The trade-in value of her car has plummeted, too.

 

I don't know you or your mother but today's 72 is yesterday's 55, so don't relegate her to being too old quite yet. I quite agree a little instruction about how to handle various emergencies could be in order, but, that is always true.

 

I wonder how many deficiencies will suddenly show up for Toyotas and how many will be fake? There are always those who are willing to capitalize on what is perceived to be a "fault". Any attorneys listening?

 

I am quite intrigued by the use of the parking brake. Traditionally this has been a back up with it engaging only the rear wheels. This suggests a maximum of 1/2 of the braking effort being available. In truth, the rear wheels only provide somewhat less than 1/2 of the braking effort available. It boggles my mind to think that a car careening down the expressway at over 90 MPH was able to effectively stop using the parking brake. Perhaps they also consulted a physic to achieve this goal. Who knows?

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[Sparky12]

KMEM, his use of the parking brake just slowed the car down to about 55 mph. At that point for some reason he decided that it was safe to power down the car. The car turned off successfully and coasted to a stop. His logic about not turning off the car much earlier is faulty.

[+ Charlie]

A news story has just appeared that makes his story look somewhat fishy. It turns out he is in deep financial trouble, has already had two vehicles repossessed, and he was five months behind in his payments to Toyota Financial Services. Tapes also show that the 911 operator and the cops did indeed tell him to put the car in neutral, but he didn't try it.

 

I have thought it odd that the two most famous incidents both happened on a freeway in San Diego, given all the Toyotas in the US.

[AdamSmith]

Without disbelieving the early reporters of vehicle oddities, I agree now is the time that grifters start to come out of the woodwork.

[KMEM]

AS-

 

I think they already have and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

 

I hardly believe anyone except you and me and I am a little worried about you.

 

KMEM

[MsGuy]

A news story has just appeared that makes his story look somewhat fishy. It turns out he is in deep financial trouble, has already had two vehicles repossessed, and he was five months behind in his payments to Toyota Financial Services. Tapes also show that the 911 operator and the cops did indeed tell him to put the car in neutral, but he didn't try it.

 

I have thought it odd that the two most famous incidents both happened on a freeway in San Diego, given all the Toyotas in the US.

 

Thanks for the post, Charlie. Something about those early news reports didn't read quite right. Five months behind? Well, that's one way to settle a deficiency judgment.

[JoeyBryant]

I own a Toyota...but perhaps they were better just a couple years back than they are now. Everything now is about being built quick, quick ,quick and fuel efficient. So you could imagine some things being overlooked.

 

Likewise, I remember Explorers and firestone years ago...something with the tires shredding and flipping over. As far as I know, they are still on the road today.

 

In additon, Toyotas dont have nearly the amount of things go wrong as I've seen with some American cars. I rented a brand new one recently, and although I think they are hot...the radio wouldn't come on a couple of times

[+ LIguy]

After leasing Acuras for the last 20 years and seeing their quality decline and my not using a car as much as previous years I bought a new 2009 Camry.It's 14 months old now and I have to say I am very happy with it.There's not even a rattle when driving.I will bring it in and have the recall work done but I am not afraid to drive the car.I think many of these accidents are caused by pressing the gas pedal instead of the brake.In today's Newsday there's a picture of a Nissan that slammed into a parked Chevy and got lodged under the Chevy.The driver said the car just accelerated by itself.Yea right.

I also wonder if the American car companies have a hand in Toyota's troubles.Sabotage? I wonder...

[CowboyUp]

I don't know you or your mother but today's 72 is yesterday's 55, so don't relegate her to being too old quite yet.

 

KMEM: What did I write in my original message that led you to conclude that I think 72 is "too old"? Quite the contrary is true. I wouldn't have purchased my mom a new car if I hadn't thought she was very capable of driving it safely. In fact, she still work's full-time as a registered nurse, usually caring for patients who are much younger than herself. I just want to be certain the Camry I bought her is as safe as I had originally concluded. I have reviewed the safety precautions and instructions with her, so hopefully, she will be just fine. By the way, I agree with you that 72 is the new 55--My mom is excellent proof of it.

[KMEM]

Like I said, I don't know you or your mother. It just sounded like you were in the "protect the elderly parent" mode in your post. "I bought her this car", "I was worried about her driving it" , etc.

 

No insult intended.

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[AdamSmith]

I hardly believe anyone except you and me and I am a little worried about you.

 

As you should be. Situational awareness for a pilot is all.

[+ ArVaGuy]

Automobiles have become more and more complex with each passing decade. The shade tree mechanic is almost a thing of the past. These days it requires a decent background in computer technology to even qualify as a mechanic for the major dealerships. The internal combustion engine is a straight forward and easily repaired piece of machinery. It’s the computers and microprocessors that have been added on to increase the efficiency of the motor, increase fuel economy, and add to the driver luxuries that have made the cars so complex.

 

However, with all that complexity the average driver has no clue just how his vehicle operates or how to monitor or use all those nice new bells and whistles. Let one of those simple microprocessors go haywire and the whole car shuts down. It’s becoming clear that there’s some type of glitch, possibly in the software, causing these Toyota issues. But driver error can also be a factor in some of these instances – though I’m not referring to the Toyota situation in this instance.

 

Airline pilots have to be retrained and recertified on a regularly scheduled basis to maintain their pilot’s license. Such is a necessary practice as the manufacturers continually upgrade and change the technology on a regular basis. Pilots are trained and retrained on various emergency procedures as well. (I defer to KMEM on any other points related to this aspect.) Your average automobile driver is not.

 

Most of us get a license to drive at age 16 and that was the first and only test we take to prove our worthiness to operate a vehicle for the rest of our lives. From then on one can just drive any car off a dealer lot with minimal instruction and a quick flip through the owner’s manual that remains in the glove box for years usually untouched. Is it no wonder that these days when cars suddenly accelerate that drivers have no clue how to react in these situations?

 

Shifting to Neutral seldom comes to mind in an emergency situation and trying to turn a key off on a push button start presents a challenge. We can all armchair what these drivers should or should not have done in this situation but can we honestly say we’d be able to react well given the complexities of our cars in exact circumstance?

[KMEM]

AVG-

 

You are exactly correct. However, I am not sure mechanics don't mainly train on how to use the test equipment rather than "understand" the software and electronics of a modern car. Without denigrating mechanics at all, after all, a pilot's best friend is his mechanic, I would propose comparing what they do to using your computer to email or various other programs, then changing a part, as indicated. You know how to do it but you are not necessarily a programmer.

 

With all the fatalities on the road these days (and most previous days) in the US, it is a shame there is not a bit more training and control of drivers. I don't mean "national" control but local control, in the sense of training. Elderly drivers, I hear, are given a discount for completing a defensive driving course. If there is any thing needed more than defensive driving where I live, I don't know what it is unless it is a tank to ward off drivers who are talking on their cell phones, texting, combing their hair, putting on cosmetics, checking their appointment book, in short, doing almost any thing except paying attention to their driving. I think it fairly obvious that a DL is a form of tax with ID features and, mainly, a right of passage from being a non-driver to being a driver, with or without the skills required.

 

Where I live there are some very silly requirements that are wasted on drivers and perpetuated on "owners" of cars. That is the inspection requirement before a state tag is issued. There are long lines to have cars inspected when there are cars on the road belching oil fumes and otherwise not roadworthy while, at the same time, they are inspecting cars that are new or virtually new with no exhaust problems and certainly no system problems, like wipers not working properly, brakes faulty, headlights out of alignment, etc., etc. Obviously, another tax, as much time is wasted and fuel burned and many offenders not caught.

 

I certainly agree that pushing a button to shut the engine off while accelerating is not an easy task. Shifting into neutral should come to mind but also not easy. However, as you imply if not suggest, training to do these things should not be that difficult. The real problem is that most owners/drivers view driving as a right rather than a privilege and have no time for "training" in how to handle emergencies. Pity.

 

Airline captains are recertified every 6 months and First Officers every year. That encompasses specific training in the aircraft flown as well as general re-current training in procedures, emergency and otherwise. Not perfect but a whole lot more than drivers consider or face.

 

Thanks for the post.

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[Luv2play]

While it sounds simple, what is the effect of shifting to neutral at 90 miles an hour or faster? Wouldn't the fact that the accelerator is still engaged, even if you foot is off the pedal, make that difficult? And even if you succeeded, wouldn't the engine rev above the red line and destroy your engine? Of course that would be preferable to having an accident at that speed but still, there must be a better way to stop a runaway car, or is there?

 

I have read that standing on the brakes will simply burn the brakes and they will no longer function. And then all of this is happening while you are racing through traffic and trying to keep your eyes on the road. I would not like to find myself in this situation!

[+ Charlie]

I don't know how hard it is to shift to neutral with an automatic transmission, because I've never tried it, but it's easy enough with a manual transmission, even with your foot on the gas, as long as you engage the clutch first. My guess is that the driver didn't do it when advised by the 911 operator, because it would have ended the incident too quickly, before the police and media could get involved. If you are going to stage such an incident, a relatively empty high speed freeway is the place to do it.