Montreal -- More Things Change More They Stay the Same

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

Dont shoot the messenger!

 

One of my Campus dancers tells me "Becose they will take everything off this week.. the police change their mind and don't want no more of doors in the place.. "

 

You heard it here first . x( ;( :-( :o ;( x(

[marc anthony]

>Dont shoot the messenger!

>

>One of my Campus dancers tells me "Becose they will take

>everything off this week.. the police change their mind and

>don't want no more of doors in the place.. "

>

>You heard it here first . x( ;( :-( :o ;( x(

 

I guess it is a strange concept to us Americans that the police are actually the ones entrusted to interpret law in Montreal. They first decided that it would be acceptable to put up partitions so that "things" could happen in private. They tell the clubs to do it... they all obediently fall in line. Now they say ... we change our mind.

 

Do the courts ever say anything about this? What did the judge say about Taboo?

 

I actually think they have the cutest boys there, and a great set up. I just wish they would decide how they want the clubs to act and keep it like that so that we can all adjust and have a good time.

 

I will be there this weekend... so I guess I will be seeing the evolution of Montreal stripper law first hand!

[jack]

ditto, to Marc. Are the police harrassing the Montreal female strip clubs the same way or are the cops just hanging around entering the male clubs. The last thing I heard about the females was about four years ago when the legislature voted to Okay insertion up to your first nuckle. Soooo gross. Back to us -- this see-saw policing activity in the male clubs this year is very distracting. With Taboo shut down, I cancelled my October trip and for me that's a sacrifice. With the new curtain/door routine I was very intrigued with renewed hope for naturalization of live style in Montreal again. At the bar the no-touch rule is rediculous and abnormal ---- to touch, pat, feel, another human being is normal and very reassuring to the essence of life. In any event, I really really hope these reports continue during the winter months and show a stabilization of events so that we can have peace of mind while attenting the clubs in Montreal. For me, during the winter, I travel through New York, with lovely twink companionship hosted by Philip at Campus, on my way to the warmth of sublime beaches in the tropics. I truely loved Taboo, you can tell . . ..

[axebahia]

>I guess it is a strange concept to us Americans that the

>police are actually the ones entrusted to interpret law in

>Montreal. They first decided that it would be acceptable to

>put up partitions so that "things" could happen in private.

>They tell the clubs to do it... they all obediently fall in

>line. Now they say ... we change our mind.

 

I doubt very much that the police told them that "things" could happen in private, although I am sure that was the spin put on it by the owners and dancers.

 

>Do the courts ever say anything about this? What did the

>judge say about Taboo?

 

Don't expect a judge in Montreal to sanction public sex. The worst thing in the world would be to get the courts involved in this business.

 

BTW, one agency owner told me last week that the lack of on-line escorting had to do with police stings.

 

Don't shoot the messenger, but Montreal is loking better than at anytime in the last 25 years. You better get used to the fact that the city is undergoing a kind of "Time Square" renewal program and that is likely to gather steam. To me, that is yet another reason for this industry to go on-line. I think the days of Montreal as the gay or straight lap dance mecca are coming to an end.

[axebahia]

RE: Montreal, the Mob, the Sex Industry and Changing Times

 

Oct. 10, 2003. 01:00 AM

 

Stripper defends politician father

`I know that I've hurt' him, she says Charest stands by

his justice minister

 

MIRO CERNETIG

QUEBEC BUREAU CHIEF

 

MONTREAL—The daughter of Quebec's justice minister, a stripper who danced in a club police allege was frequented by the Hells Angels, made an emotional plea yesterday to save her father's cabinet post.

 

Lysanne Bellemare, who has been estranged from Marc Bellemare since she was 18, said she hadn't told her father about her lifestyle.

 

"I didn't tell him," she told Quebec city radio station CHOI-FM. "He didn't know."

 

She also said she had no links to the motorcycle gang and pleaded for Quebec Premier Jean Charest not to punish her father. She said her father has never used his influence to help her when she had brushes with the law.

 

"My father has no blame in this at all," she said, adding she hoped for a reunion once she left the nude-dancing business. "I know that I've hurt my father. It's not what I set out to do. I'm not a bad girl."

 

Charest also defended his minister yesterday, saying Bellemare had earlier declared the potential problem. The premier said there was no indication the situation would interfere with Bellemare's ability to preside over the justice ministry, which has been prosecuting members of the Hells Angels in ongoing court cases.

 

"Marc Bellemare has my total confidence," Charest said. "Mr. Bellemare's behaviour has been absolutely impeccable."

 

Bellemare informed Charest of his predicament on April 30, a day after he was sworn into cabinet as Quebec's attorney-general and justice minister. That day, the minister was told by Quebec city police they were investigating whether his daughter was linked to the Hells Angels.

 

The 21-year-old aspiring actress' emotional defence of her father came after Internet photographs of her semi-clothed were splashed around Quebec in newspapers and television broadcasts yesterday.

 

News she worked as a stripper, sometimes in a bar police were investigating for gang activity, was aired Wednesday by Quebec city talk show radio host André Arthur, well known for turning an unflattering spotlight on politicians and celebrities.

 

Quebec's justice minister called a news conference Wednesday to explain he has had "extremely limited relations" with his daughter after she turned 18.

 

"I love her, she is my oldest," he said, refusing demands that he resign because of conflict of interest.

 

"But what do you want me to do? It is her choice of life."

[Luv2play]

RE: Montreal -- More Things Change More They Stay the S...

 

I don't think the US legal system and the Canadian one differ that much except we in Canada don't have elected judges or district attorneys (Crown prosecutors here). The police and public prosecutors in both countries work hand in hand in applying the law.

 

The Supreme Court in Canada has decided what constitutes obscene behaviour and the prosecutors and police apply those decisions. The police take direction from the prosecutors as to what behaviour is likely to bring convictions in the courts. The courts have ruled that sex acts done "in private" by two consenting adults of whatever sex are permissible. "In private" can include places where the public's view is blocked and it is this which led the police to conclude that sex behind closed doors in stripper cubs would be OK.

 

I am somewhat surprised that the police would change their minds now that the doors have been put in place, but then again, nothing really surprises me in Montreal. Maybe they just don't want to make it so easy for the sex trade. They may have come to the realization that what they were condoning was in fact "houses of prostitution".

 

I personally found it fun (and somewhat more expensive:o )with the closed cabins but if we go back to the old system there will still be opportunities to have some extras from the dancers, it will just be more risky}(

[axebahia]

RE: Montreal -- More Things Change More They Stay the S...

 

>The courts have ruled that sex acts done "in private"

>by two consenting adults of whatever sex are permissible. "In

>private" can include places where the public's view is blocked

>and it is this which led the police to conclude that sex

>behind closed doors in stripper cubs would be OK.

 

Interesting, but that is not at all what courtshave ruled. We are talking about a law that was changed when Trudeau was Justice Minister, and made his famous "the state has no place in the bedrooms of the nation" remark. I know of no Canadian court that has since ruled that sex in a public place becomes sex in a private place because the owner puts up doors in stalls in the public place, nor is the latter view a logical extension of the former.

[Luv2play]

RE: Montreal -- More Things Change More They Stay the S...

 

You have not kept up with Canadian law because in the last year the courts have ruled that sex between two consenting adults in a swingers club was legal, IF the two did the act out of sight from the other members of the club. Previously, any sex in these clubs was deemed illegal. So I am surmising that the police were taking this to mean that sex behind closed doors in stripper clubs would be tolerated by the courts. Now they may have changed their minds. Tant pis:-(

[vakh]

Was it Vladimir who told you this??? because he told me the same on Friday. I took it as a push to have a lap with him, kind of "last chance". Don't familiar to laws too much, but i know exactly that, for instance, it's prohibited to have sex in disco's toulette cabins - one of my friends was caught in such a situation,fortunately by local security, but he was told that next time he will be brought to police. other of my friends was a witness of police "raid" in Centre-ville sauna and he said that they were seaching the rooms in order to find somebody having sex - have no idea is it true. Dark-rooms in Quebec night clubs are not permitted - while they have some in ontario as i know.

from the other side,these closed doors is a best and direct way of turning the strip clubs to "brothel" - exactly why they charged "Taboo". i still don't understand Montreal police - it's like two by two that lots of things can happen behind the closed doors - much more than in the open area ;-) And they turned strip clubs into brothels by their own hands It doesn't mean that I'm against the new rules - I'm totally for them }(

[KY_TOP]

RE: Montreal -- More Things Change More They Stay the S...

 

My concern about all this is the clubs have the attention of the authorites. At what point does the rule changes stop and the raids start. When Taboo is closed over something that is not even close to what you can do, and what I DID DO, in the other Clubs, what is next? At someones whim, what happens next? Do we have to worry about visiting the clubs for fear of being in the next raid, closing or roundup. If the Authorities are this confused about what they will allow, it cannot be a good thing.

 

Maybe I should start reading the Rio threads more and plan on going South of the border instead of North.

[axebahia]

RE: Montreal -- More Things Change More They Stay the S...

 

>You have not kept up with Canadian law because in the last

>year the courts have ruled that sex between two consenting

>adults in a swingers club was legal, IF the two did the act

>out of sight from the other members of the club.

 

I am not aware of that decision, or which court said that. However, sex between consenting adults in a "private" "members only club is a very different prposition than sex in a public establishment which ets up doors on booths. (Check out similar Canadian case law on smoking rooms in public facilities and private clubs in municipalities that have zero-tolerance bans on public smoking, e.g. Ottawa.) Unfortunately, in this area, people do tend to get very bad legal advice and then the on-line paralegals start opining and the misinformation only gets magnified.

[marc anthony]

>>I guess it is a strange concept to us Americans that the

>>police are actually the ones entrusted to interpret law in

>>Montreal. They first decided that it would be acceptable to

>>put up partitions so that "things" could happen in private.

>>They tell the clubs to do it... they all obediently fall in

>>line. Now they say ... we change our mind.

>

>I doubt very much that the police told them that "things"

>could happen in private, although I am sure that was the spin

>put on it by the owners and dancers.

 

Well.. they were able to get every club in the Village to put up these partitions all in the same week and charge a sliding scale for dances. They must have told them something!

>

>>Do the courts ever say anything about this? What did the

>>judge say about Taboo?

>

>Don't expect a judge in Montreal to sanction public sex. The

>worst thing in the world would be to get the courts involved

>in this business.

 

Nevertheless, at some point in time, a judge has to rule on the Taboo case. I don't think they can continue it forever and ever! I am just interested as to what kind of ruling will come down in that case.

 

You better get used to the

>fact that the city is undergoing a kind of "Time Square"

>renewal program and that is likely to gather steam. To me,

>that is yet another reason for this industry to go on-line. I

>think the days of Montreal as the gay or straight lap dance

>mecca are coming to an end.

 

If you are right, then I will be sad. I know that you have long lamented the lack of online escorts in Montreal since the strip club scene is not really for you. But for me, it is (or was) a unique attraction to the place. The internet scene is alive and well in many places in the US, with cute and accomodating boys to be had. No other place in North America has the same club atmosphere and opportunities as Montreal... and that is part of the reason it made it so much fun to visit. If the clubs close, and the whole industry goes online, it will still be a neat city... but I am not sure if it will be unique enough at that point to justify the extra time and effort it takes to go to so often to another country for what you can get in the real "renewed" Times Square.

[Luv2play]

RE: Montreal -- More Things Change More They Stay the S...

 

Yes, well as the Chinese say, May we live in interesting times! The sex club case that I alluded to in a previous post dealt with a Quebec club which did not charge membership or entrance fees and was a heterosexual club for swingers. The case , wich was widely publicised, was won by the prosecution (common bawdy house) but on appeal was sort of a mixed result. The court of appeal held that community standards would not object to two people having sex in such a setting as long as it was not done in view of others, so that if two consenting adults met in this environment and then removed themselves to another room in the same place, what they did there would not be subject to criminal sanction.

 

I am assuming that in the case of stripper bars, the police thought that by closing the cabins off from public view would be similar to what can go on in swinger clubs, of course ignoring the fact that money exchanges hands in the former and not the latter. Given this, I am not surprised that they may have had second thoughts as they are effectively condoning prostitution, which of course goes beyond what the swingers clubs engage in.

 

As for what happens next, I can only guess. Some of the boys will miss those $20 dances, as they were quite lucrative for those willing to engage in more overt sexual acts than mere fondling.Cetainly, Vladamir at Campus was one of those who doesn't mind getting a blow job on the job}(

[axebahia]

RE: Montreal -- More Things Change More They Stay the S...

 

>The court of appeal held that community standards would not

>object to two people having sex in such a setting as long as

>it was not done in view of others, so that if two consenting

>adults met in this environment and then removed themselves to

>another room in the same place, what they did there would not

>be subject to criminal sanction.

 

OK, that makes more sense. I still think it would be a stretch to take from that the idea that prostitution would pass muster if in a booth behind a closed door. Who ever advised the owners and dancers to the contrary does not seem very bright to me. BTW, this has been the rule in the straight strip bars in Quebec for years. It sounds like the police are just enforcing the law equally now to avert Charter arguments about discrimination or selective prosecution.

[TotallyOz]

RE: Montreal -- More Things Change More They Stay the S...

 

AXE,

 

Please eloborate on this if you would.

[Guest Kenny021]

RE: Montreal -- More Things Change More They Stay the S...

 

I am amazed at all the brouhaha that is being displayed here based only on "one" comment made by a dancer (whoever he is). Has this statement been verified by anyone else? Someone asked if it was "Vladimir", whoever he is, and he implied that he could have had an ulterior motive for making this statement.

Before everyone gets his knickers in an uproar, try to determine if there is any truth to this rumor.

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

RE: Montreal -- More Things Change More They Stay the S...

 

I deem the source very reliable. FWIW

[Luv2play]

RE: Montreal -- More Things Change More They Stay the S...

 

FWIW???

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

RE: Montreal -- More Things Change More They Stay the S...

 

For What It's Worth

[Luv2play]

RE: Montreal -- More Things Change More They Stay the S...

 

Thanks, I didn't know that one. Now that I do, I might say your source at Campus may not be very reliable. I have just come back from Le Stock and everything there is normal and no-one I talked to had heard this rumour. I might add business was going on as usual and I engaged in a little play just to assure myself that tthe $20 dance was alive and well}(

 

But one thing I did notice was that they had a dancer who looked like he belonged at the old Taboo, not a day over 16, which three or four of the dancers observed, at least by his appearance. The owner of Le Stock was there and I felt like telling him he wasn't doing himself any favours, hiring a kid like that, no matter what his age. You'd think they would learn from others' experiences:-(

[axebahia]

RE: Montreal -- More Things Change More They Stay the S...

 

>Please eloborate on this if you would.

 

Sorry, I really don't have much to add other than what I noted above. For as long as I can recall, in straight strip bars, in Montreal there was a no touching rule, even in closed booths. Ditto for the bars of Gatineau, near Ottawa. Occasionally, club security would check the booths to verify that. So it seems to me that it would be hard to justify a different, less stringent standards for gay strip clubs without giving rise to possible challenges under the equality provisions of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and possibly under another section dealing with due process rights. This is just a guess on my part though. I am not intimately familiar with the facts here.

[vakh]

RE: Montreal -- More Things Change More They Stay the S...

 

I'm not sure - the thing that i've read an article telling about the court rule in Montreal about strainght clubs and the decision was made to aloud the clients to touch the dancers. the article was dated I guess 1998 or even 1997. I'll try to find this article and enclose a link in my next message. By the way, did somebody tried to CALL to the clubs to ask directly what's going on???

[Luv2play]

RE: Montreal -- More Things Change More They Stay the S...

 

I had a *cocktail* at the Campus this evening before dinner and found out that one thing has changed in the cabin situation, which evidently follows on discussions between police and the club owners. As was reported by the original poster of this thread, the police were having second thoughts about the locked doors on cabins and perhaps even if there should be doors. It seems that the straight clubs have closed cabins but the doors don't lock and so Campus has now removed the locks from the doors. They still close completely but can be opened from the outside by merely pushing on them.

 

So it seems this may be a compromise that has been reached. At Campus the doors swing like saloon doors so the dancer I had there this evening hung his pants over the doors so that someone outside would know the cabin was occupied. There is always the danger that someone could charge in (like an undercover cop) but if the dancer keeps an eye on what is going on outside the cabin by looking over the top of the partitions, then everything should be alright. It was in my case}(

And it was a VERY good cocktail, I must say!!:+

[bigguyinpasadena]

RE: Montreal -- More Things Change More They Stay the S...

 

Thanks for the reports Luv2Play-have you been over to the Adonis lately?

[TotallyOz]

A very sexy, very cute dancer from Montreal just walked into my apartment for a week or two. He says that the rules at Blue and Adonis have not changed. He said that he had not heard of any changes in the program at those clubs. However, as fast as things change in Montreal, it could have happened on his way down to NYC today.