Anger builds in Spain as Rubiales refuses to stand down!

[SirBillybob]

“The offside rule? I’m gonna put it the same way the Supreme Court did ages ago when they defined pornography. It ain’t easy to explain but you know it when you see it.”

~ Ted Lasso

 

“I never know how to react when a grown man beatboxes in front of me.”

~ Keeley Jones

 

On what takes away from a victory, ie, a draw or apparent opinion stalemate in this recent context in terms of positions ranging from assertions of toxic masculinity to celebratory innocence:                                              
“Look, we are not playing for a tie. Ain’t nobody here gonna kiss their sister.”     

~ Ted Lasso (credited to US Navy coach Eddie Erdelatz)

Edited August 31, 2023 by SirBillybob

[+ sam.fitzpatrick]

3 hours ago, Unicorn said:

No, I've never served on a jury. Attorneys always want the biggest numbskulls they can find to put on their juries, since these are people they can persuade with fancy argument rather than hard facts. Ergo I'm always excused. As you pointed out, the verdict has to be unanimous, so each and every juror is personally responsible for the fate of the convict. A juror cannot simply declare that he was "simply going with the crowd" to absolve himself of his responsibility. I realize that judges put tremendous social and financial pressure on jurors (at least in the US), telling them (falsely) it's "their duty" to come to a unanimous decision, instead of coming to their own conclusions. In fact, they usually will force them into interminable involuntary servitude until the jurors have "done their duty," letting it be known that anything but a unanimous decision is unacceptable. That being said, I personally find it absolutely horrifying that a juror feels a lack of answerability to his decision, claiming "it's the other 11 people who made me do it." 

I also find it telling--and not at all surprising--that you're unwilling to reveal what iron-clad evidence was presented that led to your unassailable conclusion that there was no way she didn't just change her mind after the fact. Hopefully that iron-clad evidence didn't simply consist of the woman's tearful protestations. 

With your thoughts of the judicial system, I hope you are never the victim or a relative of one that is needs an independent jury to evaluate the evidence.   

You hadn't previously asked for the evidence of why I believed the victim did not change her mind.  Here it is:  (1) there were several witnesses that testified that she had declined his advances earlier in the evening, (2) both the victim and accused confirmed that the victim was asleep when the incident started, (3) the accused indicated that while they were long-time friends, she had said no when he had previously asked her out on dates nor had she expressed a desire for a sexual relationship with him, and (4) the accused admitted that he had never asked her to be physical with her, nor had the victim asked him to be physical with her.

I agree with you that every juror is responsible the verdict that was reached.  I used the full jury to demonstrate that when this jury was unanimous, it removed any doubt from my mind that the jury reached the correct verdicts. 

Lastly, I didn't mention the verdict on the rape charge.  You wrongly assumed that we found the defendant guilty of rape.  While the jurors believed that the contact between the victim and accused was non-consensual, we found the accused "not guilty" of the rape charge.  Our state law requires penile penetration in the vagina for it to be rape.  I didn't believe that there was any evidence of penetration as the rape kit only reflected the boyfriend's (not the accused) although the accused DNA did appear on the victim's bra and panties.  Again, I rest comfortable that the verdicts we reached on each count were correct according to the law, despite the law, in my opinion, being flawed in this case.

 

 

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, sam.fitzpatrick said:

With your thoughts of the judicial system, I hope you are never the victim or a relative of one that is needs an independent jury to evaluate the evidence...

I agree with you 100% here. I find the use of juries in civil cases particularly reprehensible (the US is the only country on the planet which uses juries for civil cases), nor do I even trust juries in criminal cases. For civil cases, arbitration by arbitrators skilled in the area in question should be used (for example, public health professionals deciding on whether or not talc or Round-Up cause cancer)--not some janitor or auto detailer with no expertise in these matters. For criminal cases, unanimity among a panel of 3 judges should be the standard. I laugh when I hear ads on TV saying "A jury has determined that RoundUp causes cancer!" What the fuck does a jury know about these things?

31 minutes ago, sam.fitzpatrick said:

...(2) both the victim and accused confirmed that the victim was asleep when the incident started...

Well, I certainly also agree 100% that a person can't consent if she's passed out. What you previously said was that she "didn't react when the act happened because she couldn't process at the time what was happening." While it's true that someone who's passed out (obviously) can't consent or process what's happening, this is about as false an equivalence as one can make if one wants to make a comparison with Hermoso, who was obviously quite awake, alert, and completely sober to boot. It's quite off-base, in my opinion, to claim these events are comparable. If what you're saying is true, and the victim in your trial was uncontestably unconscious when this happened, I don't even understand why this even went to trial. 

[+ augustus]

5 hours ago, BOZO T CLOWN said:

Stop watching the fake news pushing all this propaganda down our throats.

You are not wrong. People just don't like hearing the quiet part out loud, especially if it goes against the grain. 

[+ augustus]

She realized she was supposed to be offended once someone told her. 

[CuriousByNature]

I've seen the video a few times and believe the kiss was, at the very least, highly inappropriate.  To me, what may raise this act to the level of an assault, on an objective basis, is the power differential that exists between Rubiales and the player.  

Whether or not she looked happy at the time, placed her arms on him, or made it clear he should not kiss her is immaterial in situations that unfold this quickly and within a highly charged emotional context.  Rubiales, holding a position of power, placed his lips on the lips of a subordinate without seeking her consent.  If people ask how Rubiales could be blamed for not seeking the player's consent in such a spontaneous situation, then they should also ask themselves how they could expect the player to have effectively denied consent in that same situation.  Due to the power differential and the circumstances, the player's ability to express a lack of consent was taken from her.  Her ability to choose one way or the other was lost in the moment.

It is also common for someone who has experienced a lower-level assault, such as a quick kiss, to not immediately realize that an assault has taken place.  Especially in cases where they know the one who has assaulted them, either personally or by reputation.  

I believe that Rubiales honestly does not believe he assaulted anyone, and I don't think he was aiming to assault anyone.  But that doesn't mean that an assault did not occur.    

Edited September 1, 2023 by CuriousByNature

[BSR]

10 hours ago, augustus said:

She realized she was supposed to be offended once someone told her. 

Jenni Hermoso changed her story twice.  From the first version I posted earlier to the final "I am a viiiiiiictiiiiiiiim!" version.  Don't know what the intermediate version was.

[BSR]

At 0:52 in this video, you can see Jenni Hermoso and her teammates shrieking with laughter later in the locker room over the kiss.  Do you see any discomfort on Hermoso's face?  Not even a speck.

Then the Spanish women's soccer team partied like maniacs in Ibiza for 3 days.  Any reports from teammates that Jenni looked upset, sad, confused, or disturbed ... the signs of someone who has suffered what she later realized was a low-level sexual assault?  Nope, not a single one.

Only after Irene Montero, Spain's Minister of Equality, contacted Hermoso did Hermoso start changing her story.  Irene Montero had been under fire for pushing through the new "Sólo sí es sí" law, which was supposed to protect victims of sexual violence but as an unintended consequence freed 103 convicts and reduced the sentences of 978 others due to a loophole.  Spaniards were outraged over the law, and many called on Montero to resign.  But the outrage over the freed rapists has disappeared from the headlines because all everyone is talking about is the Rubiales-Hermoso "scandal."  How beautifully convenient for Montero.

 

[Guest]

On 8/31/2023 at 10:39 PM, CuriousByNature said:

...how Rubiales could be blamed for not seeking the player's consent in such a spontaneous situation...It is also common for someone who has experienced a lower-level assault, such as a quick kiss, to not immediately realize that an assault has taken place...

Lord knows, it may be coming down to this, but so far nowhere is it required for there to be a written notarized document signed by all parties to document consent. Spontaneous situations are just that: spontaneous. Yes, someone can be so drunk or high on drugs that he can't figure out what's going on, but I assure you she was quite sober, and didn't change her story until days later, under pressure. When I was 12 years old and my gym teacher met me after class on the pretext of helping me out with the class, then tackled me to the ground, I knew immediately what was going on, punched him, escaped, and reported it immediately. Hermoso clearly understood what was going on, consented to it, and changed her mind a good time later. Unlike some members here, I don't believe that one can withdraw one's consent after the fact. She was caught up in the emotion of the moment. Most people can understand that. 

[SirBillybob]

Rubiales has a shitty publicist, or has neither a publicist nor capacity to read the room. He played right into his accusers’ hands, defensively, with classic own goal. There is a playbook for this kind of dust up.

Nigeria’s Alozie, following loss in initial knock-out round:

“I’m fine. My butt is fine from her (England’s James) stepping on it. I didn’t understand what was going on at first. There’s no hard feelings. It’s just a game.” 

[Of course, her team rage feigned or otherwise at point where James foolishly and ostentatiously applies meagre pressure with her cleats on her opponent’s derrière. The gesture, brazen gratuitous physical contact, illegal compared to, say, sliding in with one’s boot’s targeting an opponents ankles … plausible deniability]

Alozie: “We are playing on the world stage. This game is one of passion, insurmountable emotion and moments.”

James: “All my love and respect for you. I am sorry for what happened … I promise to learn from my experience.”

It did not change the red card and that game suspension of James, nevertheless won on penalties, and her ban from -quarter and -semi (if I recall correctly) that COULD have spelled disaster for England.

Rubiales arguably committed neither sexual nor simple assault. It may be ruled as unambiguously sexual but that is opinion, not incontrovertible fact. He believed, albeit possibly incorrectly and without even the most superficial of thought processes, that he explicitly possessed a green card to place his lips on Hermosa’s. 

He may have erroneously internalized the assumption that his position conferred particular prerogative. That is the broader protest, that misogyny and gender inequity exists, and a broad range of phenomena actually manifest it. He would have been well advised to get in front of it early, taken some lumps, having been gifted initially with Hermosa’s apparently neutral first response at a point in the news cycle when he was otherwise being raked over the coals by particular factions, something like, “However Ms Hermosa’s experience of a celebratory hug and platonically intended meeting of lips, I realize that not everybody is on side with this type of gesture. It is not my intention to convey that girls and women, anybody for that matter, walk around in a state of perpetual consent. I now have a better sense of when and how I can demonstrate my joy, related to an amazing sports game win, without necessarily including physical contact. I apologize for not realizing this at the time.”

Simply having said that he gets it would have shaped the field in a way different from what subsequently rolled out.

Now it’s too late to state that he could be tuned in to a different perspective, however much the actual buy in and his course correction in adjusting genitals more privately.

Edited September 2, 2023 by SirBillybob

[Guest]

On 9/2/2023 at 8:06 AM, SirBillybob said:

Rubiales has a shitty publicist, or has neither a publicist nor capacity to read the room...

Simply having said that he gets it would have shaped the field in a way different from what subsequently rolled out...

Great analysis. It wasn't the act, but rather the response which was problematic. 

[Guest]

On 8/31/2023 at 4:31 PM, sam.fitzpatrick said:

With your thoughts of the judicial system, I hope you are never the victim or a relative of one that is needs an independent jury to evaluate the evidence...

I thought of you as I read this story:

Hit in DNA database exonerates man 47 years after wrongful rape conviction

WWW.CBSNEWS.COM

---

Leonard Mack, who served seven and half years in prison for the crime, said, "I never lost hope that one day that I would be proven innocent."

"A New York man was officially exonerated on Tuesday 47 years after he was found guilty of rape in 1976 — the longest-standing wrongful conviction to be overturned based on new DNA evidence in U.S. history, the organization said. A DNA hit "conclusively excluded" Leonard Mack, 72, as the perpetrator, Westchester County District Attorney Miriam E. Rocah said in a statement. Conviction Review Unit investigators identified a convicted sex offender after they ran the DNA through databases, and the DA's office said the individual has now confessed to the rape...".

Yes, that's why I don't trust a bunch of untrained nimrods evaluating evidence. I prefer cool-headed, trained individuals reviewing evidence. I suspect many of the jurors made up their mind quickly and emotionally--just as I suspect you may have made up your mind quickly and emotionally in the Hermoso-Rubiales case, soon after you heard the story. Learning the fact that Hermoso changed her story days later wasn't going to sway you once your mind was made up. What should be the jurors' liability in this case? Should they have to spend the same amount of time in the state penitentiary as the man they wrongfully convicted? Or at least pay up their share in compensatory damages for each year this man was in prison? What's fair compensation for a year in Hell? $200,000 a year?

[marylander1940]

On 8/31/2023 at 4:05 PM, arnemgreeves said:

I mentioned race due to Vicinicius Jr., who plays for Real Madrid. I linked the two as a wider social problem in Spain.

Though are Rubiales and Hermoso friends? It didn't seem appropriate at the time. He could have kissed her on her cheek or given her a strong hug. 

A wider social problem in Spain? 

 

On 8/31/2023 at 2:45 PM, BOZO T CLOWN said:

Open sexism?  Really?
This kiss was just a friendly peck on the lips in celebration of a win. It wasn't sexual in any way. Stop watching the fake news pushing all this propaganda down our throats.
If you can't see it, ask yourself if this was two men giving each other a peck, or two women doing the same, how it would be treated differently by the propaganda press, and the feigned outrage they create?
Bozo watched video  at least 5 times. The coach was excited about the woman and performance she did. Heck, I do the same with my female friends all the time.  Many women (and a few men) today are way over the top uptight about such things. It's either innocent or not and this was clearly innocent.

Open racism? Really?
How is race involved when a White male European Spaniard kisses (appropriately or not) a White female European Spaniard? I'll wait.

BoZo

 

 

Agreed!

The Me-too movement should pick better fights!

Because of this story the culture of rape in the Coast Guard Academy is not receiving the attention it deserves!

[marylander1940]

Just stupid!

Let's make a fat and ugly old woman kiss him against his will, that should be his punishment! 

 

Spanish soccer federation President Luis Rubiales banned by FIFA after World Cup controversy - ABC News

ABCNEWS.GO.COM

---

Luis Rubiales, the Spanish soccer federation president, has been suspended by FIFA following his conduct at the Women's World Cup in August.