Vancouver Legalizes Hard Drugs

[Luv2play]

2 hours ago, WilliamM said:

How many of your friends smoke weed?

For me almost everyone I met in Vietnam and after  Vietnam (I was discharged from the Army in June 1969)

I had a number of friends back in in 1980's and 90's who had been alcoholics and sobered up and then switched to weed. They never went back to booze. And they didn't progress to harder drugs. They had found a better way to get high that wouldn't kill them.

[Guest]

This string isn't about weed. As the title implies, the discussion regards the effective legalization of hard drugs. There's a world of difference between the two.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Unicorn

[+ WilliamM]

58 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

This post isn't about weed. As the title implies, the discussion regards the effective legalization of hard drugs. There's a world of difference between the two.

Really? Who knew

A few days ago,  I wrote here that a friend died of an overdose of heroin. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, WilliamM said:

How many of your friends smoke weed?

For me almost everyone I met in Vietnam and after  Vietnam (I was discharged from the Army in June 1969)

None regularly, though some recreationally (often edible). The fact that you and your friends enjoy the weed might certainly explain many of your posts....

Hard drugs are on another level....

[+ WilliamM]

@Unicorn

 

Now I only it to listen to performers I have seen in person like Dylan, Judy Garland, the Rolling Stones, Ella Fitz Gerald,  The Who, Jackson Browne, Springsteen, Janis Joplin, Rufus , Wainwright, Joan Biaz, 

[Luv2play]

9 hours ago, Unicorn said:

This string isn't about weed. As the title implies, the discussion regards the effective legalization of hard drugs. There's a world of difference between the two.

Weed is certainly an element in The War on Drugs. It is cited as a reason why many progress from soft drugs to hard drugs. And when the "war" was launched, weed got swept up with all the other drugs and eventually sent thousands to jail in the US for mere possession. And mostly Blacks and other minorities.

Your arguments against what Vancouver is attempting to do are classic "war on drugs" mentality.

 

[+ Tygerscent]

On 1/20/2023 at 1:17 PM, Lucky said:

Earlier this year, the city of Vancouver made a final submission seeking federal exemption to decriminalize simple drug possession. The submission proposed initial possession thresholds of as much as two grams of opioids including heroin and fentanyl, three grams of cocaine, one gram of crack cocaine and 1.5 grams of amphetamines – the drugs most commonly involved in fatal overdoses.

The reasoning behind these thresholds is that these amounts are, on average, an amount that can satiate a user for three or more days, which would prevent users from needing to acquire drugs on a daily basis.

This means that, if enacted into law, possession of these amounts of drugs would no longer carry criminal charges. 

The federal government has given Vancouver an exemption from national laws for three years. All of this follows the thought that drug use is a health issue, not a criminal one.

The cartels must be thrilled! Or are they?

Interesting approach~ 👍 it would be awesome if they would also incorporate a needle exchange program into the city~ (perhaps they already do)… I ran a small scale one in Portland, Oregon for many years in an attempt to lower incidence rates of syphilis and Hep C~ (along with hygiene, food and clothing provisions). 
 It was effective and there was cooperation and compliance~ Along with clean needles, people were encouraged to clean up their living areas using provided garbage/biohazard bags and bring bio hazardous materials/fecal waste etc., to our service tents and tables where we could properly dispose of them… In return, they were given laundry detergent and laundry vouchers, so they could clean their clothes which potentiated their ability to partake in “hired daily work”, a short term work service in the area~ 

 in addition to needle exchange, I was working with the American Medical Student Association, (as an executive officer etc.,), utilizing pre meds to help in vaccination clinics, feet washing/food distribution/companionship at Operation Nightwatch, counseling of various kinds at Outside In youth at risk program, drug rehab @ DePaul, we collected clothing and home items like sheets and soap plus provided emotional/psychological support for women in transition of Portland, offered bike and helmet, safety clinics and seminars, gabe free community care at a medical clinic on the east side and also on the north side of town~ We also provided vet services and clean, canned pet foods for homeless individual’s pets~ (I still do the pet things at random times and especially during the winter holidays). That was all during the Mayor Katz era~

 The approach then seemed to be more at integrating homeless individuals into society as opposed to giving them tents that, (though providing shelter), leaves them still isolated and under provided~ Tent communities have a potential to be chemically toxic and hygienically dangerous to homeless AND homed citizens~  (pets walking thru those areas as well…)~ Tents are not the solution~ 

  Sometimes humor is a great conflict resolution practice… In jest I suggest:  If Couvie’s program is successful, Seattle will be a ghost town~ 🤷‍♂️ (yet will always have outstandingly terrible traffic pattern infrastructure). 

 Best of luck and success with the program Couvie~! May many be  rewarded by your creativity and genuine efforts~ 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Tygerscent

[+ Tygerscent]

On 1/21/2023 at 8:23 AM, Unicorn said:

Well, legalization of drugs IS a libertarian position. I think there's a logical fallacy in the sequence:

(1) I agree with this policy

(2) I'm not a Libertarian

therefore:

This is not a libertarian measure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Party_of_Canada

"Party policies include ending drug prohibition, ending government censorship, lowering taxes, protecting gun rights, and non-interventionism."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Party_(United_States)#Political_positions

"The Libertarian Party supports the legalization of all victimless crimes,[161] including drugs,[162][163][164][165] pornography,[162] prostitution,[162][163][164][165] polygamy,[166] and gambling,[167] has always supported the removal of restrictions on homosexuality,[164] opposes any kind of censorship and supports freedom of speech,[168] and supports the right to keep and bear arms[163] while opposing Federal capital punishment."

While I agree with much of what the Libertarian Party advocates, I believe that in some areas, such as dugs, their positions are naive and show poor understanding of human behavior in the real world. Legalizing hard drugs seems to ignore realities of those struggling with substance abuse, and seems rather heartless. Substance abusers can be treated humanely, and should only be incarcerated as a last resort (if they refuse treatment), and then only for their own safety. 

I disagree with the libertarian premise that drug use is a victimless crime, since many do die of substance abuse.

Well, along with some percentage of drug use comes some degree of increased violence and general crime~ (generally speaking).

 You mentioned: “…their positions are naive and show poor understanding of human behavior in the real world.” I wonder if their positions are not as much naive as allowing the potential for people to grow from subjecting themselves to bearing the weight and consequences of their own actions/words where, those who can and want to change their behavior may/will and those who don’t will suffer or parish, (inevitably providing an example of “what not to do” for others coming up behind them~).

 It’s kind of interesting to take the idea a step further beyond drug use being a “victimless crime and considering that life itself is a victimless crime”… well actually not a crime at all~  

  People may feel victimized but, it’s a very different matter~  So, whether drugs or life, people may feel victimized but, it doesn’t necessarily mean that they are victims/victimized of any imagined crime by either drugs or life since neither is truly a “crime”~ Life itself isn’t a crime and drugs themselves are not “a crime”… “Crime” is a human derived term and concept~ (I’m not saying I believe in a lawless society or that I am a libertarian or believe in whatever that all is…)~

Edited January 24, 2023 by Tygerscent

[Quincy_7]

22 hours ago, Pensant said:

I’m there often. It’s not nearly as bad as SF, Seattle or Portland. At least the junkies aren’t roaming the nice areas of downtown. And I’m a born master of critique!

I've heard of random attacks in Kitsilano.

[CuriousByNature]

5 minutes ago, Quincy_7 said:

I've heard of random attacks in Kitsilano.

I have relatives in the Vancouver area who have told me that the number of attacks has gone up significantly.  Mostly in lower income areas of downtown and east Vancouver.  Some appear quite random while others may be racist in nature and linked to anti-Asian sentiment that rose during the pandemic.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, CuriousByNature said:

I have relatives in the Vancouver area who have told me that the number of attacks has gone up significantly...

I wonder if those statistics will be mentioned when the "experiment" is over. Who cares if more people got robbed on the street? Look at how much money the government saved!

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Luv2play said:

Weed is certainly an element in The War on Drugs ...Your arguments against what Vancouver is attempting to do are classic "war on drugs" mentality.

Classic L2P playbook. Ignore the substance of the post to which you're responding. Don't counter with any facts or even rational discourse. Stick to name-calling and confounding. It's simply a fact that thousands of Canadians die of drug overdoses alone every year (that's not even counting the many times larger number of people whose lives are shortened by hard drugs). How many die of weed overdoses? 0

https://health-infobase.canada.ca/substance-related-harms/opioids-stimulants/

"...A total of 3,556 apparent opioid toxicity deaths occurred so far in 2022 (January – June). This is approximately 20 deaths per day..."

"...A total of 994 stimulant-related poisoning hospitalizations occurred so far in 2022 (January – June). This is approximately five hospitalizations per day...."

[Luv2play]

2 hours ago, Unicorn said:

Classic L2P playbook. Ignore the substance of the post to which you're responding. Don't counter with any facts or even rational discourse. Stick to name-calling and confounding. It's simply a fact that thousands of Canadians die of drug overdoses alone every year (that's not even counting the many times larger number of people whose lives are shortened by hard drugs). How many die of weed overdoses? 0

https://health-infobase.canada.ca/substance-related-harms/opioids-stimulants/

"...A total of 3,556 apparent opioid toxicity deaths occurred so far in 2022 (January – June). This is approximately 20 deaths per day..."

"...A total of 994 stimulant-related poisoning hospitalizations occurred so far in 2022 (January – June). This is approximately five hospitalizations per day...."

Your focus on saving money is not what lies behind the Vancouver initiative. It is harm reduction and if it succeeds the number of deaths, overdoses, robberies, and crime  should decrease.

I have no idea what new things the Americans are trying but at least in Canada we are trying to make some progress and not repeating the same old strategies of more cops and jailings of drug offenders.

And I didn't do any name calling as you allege. If so show it. 

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by Luv2play

[+ Tygerscent]

5 hours ago, Unicorn said:

I wonder if those statistics will be mentioned when the "experiment" is over. Who cares if more people got robbed on the street? Look at how much money the government saved!

Well… but, this particular “experiment” can’t be solely to blame~ Violent crime, theft, robbery has escalated significantly since 2016~ Perhaps the homelessness and violence is a symptom of a much larger concern In this country~ 

[pubic_assistance]

5 hours ago, Unicorn said:

Look at how much money the government saved!

Same in NYC. They dumped a ton of mentally ill drug addicts in the streets during Covid so they could reduce the jail population claiming it was to support their "rights". When it's pretty obvious to everyone here it was the reduce the jail population, redistribute the convicts at Rikers Island, which frees up the land to be sold for a tidy price in an effort to close budget gaps. Meanwhile the mentally ill drug addict suffers as well as the citizens who are attacked daily.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Tygerscent said:

...~ Perhaps the homelessness and violence is a symptom of a much larger concern In this country~ 

Yes, I have a friend who was stabbed in the chest by a homeless meth addict when my friend was getting money from an ATM in SF. The larger concern is the laissez faire attitude towards dependence on hard drugs.

[+ Tygerscent]

49 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

Yes, I have a friend who was stabbed in the chest by a homeless meth addict when my friend was getting money from an ATM in SF. The larger concern is the laissez faire attitude towards dependence on hard drugs.

My personal observations indicate that violence is not solely hard drug related… alcohol can contribute and there’s lots of addiction dependence on that drug… it’s actually something marketed and advertised… Do we just ignore deaths and injuries from drunk drivers because it’s a more acceptable drug~?
  Violence without any drugs at all happens plenty here in this country~ (weapons and discriminatory/hate related violence).

 I’m not really seeing that many of the mass shootings, (let’s say schools and chuches for example), in this country had anything to do with or were perpetuated by hard drugs~ 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Tygerscent

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Tygerscent said:

...I’m not really seeing that many of the mass shootings in this country had anything to do with or was perpetuated by hard drugs...

[+ Tygerscent]

14 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

Yes… I noticed that about you: 🤭🥰🫶

Edited January 25, 2023 by Tygerscent

[pubic_assistance]

6 hours ago, Tygerscent said:

I’m not really seeing that many of the mass shootings, (let’s say schools and chuches for example), in this country had anything to do with or were perpetuated by hard drugs~ 

Perhaps not...but a significant majority of these cases involve people who've had a history of mental problems prior to their crime.

Anyway the subject is legalization of hard drugs, not mass shootings.

[+ Tygerscent]

1 hour ago, pubic_assistance said:

Perhaps not...but a significant majority of these cases involve people who've had a history of mental problems prior to their crime.

Anyway the subject is legalization of hard drugs, not mass shootings.

Actually… it’s the decriminalizing of hard drugs, not legalization of them~ (specifically a motion in Couvie BC). Regardless, the topic has veered off into stabbings in NYC and SF as well as marijuana~ It wasn’t myself who introduced the POV that use of “hard drugs” were responsible for other criminal acts or violence against non hard drug users~ I was responding to those interjected topics~ 

 I was responding to some of the generalizations and stigmatization of “hard drug” users casually tossed out and assumed as truth regarding what substance use/abuse, addiction is~ The idea of singling out “hard drugs”, addicts and users of those as the foundation of violence without addressing the violence that occurs with things like alcohol/alcoholism~ If one was to look up the violence, violent crime, injuries and deaths associated with alcohol, (a decriminalized & legal drug), its a runner up with other drugs like cocaine, amphetamines, opiates, Ecstasy, cannabis and benzodiazepines~
 The motion towards decriminalizing various drugs and restructuring how the law and society handles/views these situations also is a consideration of what the issues actually are and redefining the terms around it~ Additionally, it perhaps changes how money is allocated for services like drug testing, rehabilitation, counseling, and accessibility to medical services including mental illness~ 

 One side note: aside from mental illness being a component of mass shootings, people’s personal extremism is also a component~ Its not necessarily mental illness, (unless you are suggesting that personal extremism is a form of mental illness and those who indulge there thus have a history of mental illness).

  It’s a health topic… hence why it’s here~ 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Tygerscent

[pubic_assistance]

29 minutes ago, Tygerscent said:

If one was to look up the violence, violent crime, injuries and deaths associated with alcohol, (a decriminalized & legal drug), its a runner up with other drugs like cocaine, amphetamines, opiates, Ecstasy, cannabis

The only thing I ever attacked on cannabis was a pizza. 😜

[pubic_assistance]

1 hour ago, Tygerscent said:

This study suggests something different: https://www.columbiapsychiatry.org/news/new-findings-columbia-mass-murder-database

Once again. The subject in this thread is Vancouver decriminalizing drugs, not mass shootings. if you REALLY want to talk about mass shootings I suggest you start a thread in the politics forum, because you can't discuss the subject without touching on the political climate surrounding the issue.

Edited January 25, 2023 by pubic_assistance

[pubic_assistance]

56 minutes ago, Luv2play said:

Please start another thread if you wish to discuss mental illness and mass shootings.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Tygerscent said:

This study suggests something different: https://www.columbiapsychiatry.org/news/new-findings-columbia-mass-murder-database

I would ask that posters stick to the topic of the effective legalization of hard drugs in Vancouver and not get side-tracked by topics that clearly have nothing to do with that, such as mass shootings in the US. If you want to start a string regarding causes of mass shootings, please do so separately--preferably in the politics forum. No one here has suggested that mass shootings have anything to do with hard drug use. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by Unicorn