Should transgender athlete Lia Thomas be allowed to keep competing against other women?

[marylander1940]

Transgender woman swimmer Lia Thomas hopes to continue competitive swimming after Penn (espn.com)

Trans swimmer Lia Thomas defends competing against women | Daily Mail Online

OP note: I'm not sure if this will turn political, I'm sure FOX would love this story and advocate for women's rights just to ban her and others. 

[+ WilliamM]

Reading about this in the Penn student newspaper, The Daily Pennsylvania, I realized the issues are also complicated by Ivy League rules, NCAA rules, Pennsylvania rules on and on.

Penn is facing another challenge provided by Law Professor Amy Wax One of her courses is/was a freshman Law School class.

Professor Wax suggested her conclusion which came off to many University of Pennsylvania students and students as a bit wacky.

Can Penn fire her, as someone with tenure and a A++ education.

Edited March 4, 2022 by WilliamM

[+ sam.fitzpatrick]

I don't know the rules at Penn; however, I'm aware that other universities can mandate a sabbatical when they see issues with quality of performance. 

Another option is to change the responsibilities of the professor when the performance isn't meeting expectations after receiving tenure.

And most terms of tenure include a provision that the tenured cannot engage in conduct "reflecting poorly on the university."  (not sure of the correct terminology)  Most often that comes into play with sexual misconduct or criminal activities, but I am aware of it being used for public statements that damaged the reputation of the univerity.

[+ Lucky]

Lia has broad shoulders that seem appropriate to a man. She may have changed her gender, but she has a man's stamina and (most of his) physique.

[marylander1940]

7 hours ago, Lucky said:

Lia has broad shoulders that seem appropriate to a man. She may have changed her gender, but she has a man's stamina and (most of his) physique.

If transgender lose their rights, WE gay men might be next.

I do agree with you about her physical advantages over other female competitors.

[+ WilliamM]

49 minutes ago, marylander1940 said:

If transgender lose their rights, WE gay men might be next.

I do agree with you about her physical advantages over other female competitors.

What does this have to do with "gay men?"

[Becket]

Seems unfair.  Seems very unfair.  But in the myriad shades of gray Lia does have the "right."  I really hate talking about her rights here.  It just seems so graceless.  So yea, I'm confused as well. 

[+ FrankR]

17 hours ago, Lucky said:

Lia has broad shoulders that seem appropriate to a man. She may have changed her gender, but she has a man's stamina and (most of his) physique.

I wonder…in the spirit of preserving her right to compete, if the next step to consider should be to create a 3rd category in sport to allow for the biological reality. Male, Female and Trans. It is such a tough nut to crack and feelings can get hurt, but if you want to be super practical… 🤫

[BSR]

On 3/4/2022 at 10:41 AM, Lucky said:

Lia has broad shoulders that seem appropriate to a man. She may have changed her gender, but she has a man's stamina and (most of his) physique.

When Will Thomas competed in men's swimming, he was the #462 ranked swimmer.  Now that Lia Thomas is competing in women's swimming, she is #1 and breaking records left, right, and center. 

Did she start training with Michael Phelps?  Did she revamp her technique?  What caused her to leap from #462 to #1?  One look at Lia Thomas makes it obvious.  She is much taller than the women she competes against.  Her armspan is incredibly long compared to her competitors.  And while perhaps less muscled than she was pre-hormone therapy, she still has a musculature far greater than her competitors.

Note that only MTF trans women are winning competitions and breaking records.  You will never see a FTM trans man ranked #1 in men's swimming.  I fully support trans women's right to live as women, absolutely.  But ignoring their physical advantages and allowing them to compete in women's sports is an injustice to cis women athletes.

[+ sniper]

If hormones were the only advantage between cisgender men and women, steroids would have closed the gap. They never came close to doing that.

I think ultimately a new category is warranted for top-level sports. That said, some horribly anti-trans activists are using this issue for their own broader ugly purposes and that needs to be called out.

 

[Monarchy79]

Transgender women should have their own category to compete against other transgender women, but they should not compete with biologically-born women. They know they have an unfair advantage. And the advantage is that the foundation of their physiological makeup is male.

 

to further prove my point, think about this… consider the fact that transmen (female to male transgenders), have not even once attempted to compete with naturally born men in any sport…

[pubic_assistance]

I don't understand why this is even a conversation.

I played sports in high school and college.

If one of the girls wanted to participate in the boys team we were usually open to the idea of letting them try ( I was once pinned to the mat by a giant Lesbian) ...if one of the boys wanted to compete with the girls it was an absolute NO.

Biology is what it is

A new set of tits doesn't make you a woman no matter how much you want to live that way. You can change your cognitive reality around what you want but nature doesn't reduce your muscle mass when you have reassignment surgery. So yeah ...MTF people have unfair advantages in competition .

The only fair answer is to create a separate category since gender re-assigned athletes now seems to be more common.

[+ sam.fitzpatrick]

Perhaps one of the earliest trans female athletes was Dr. Renee Richards who was a women's doubles finalist at the 1977 US Open at age 43.  (I was a ballboy for a tournament which she entered in either 1977 or 1978 and we received specific training to ignore any comments about her sexuality when we were on the grounds.  She ended up not competing, so we didn't have any issues.) 

Per her Wikipedia page, after her retirement she came to believe that her past as a man was an advantage.  "Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I'd had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I've reconsidered my opinion."

[Guest]

For me, it depends on the sport and the venue. I don't see it as an issue in amateur or college sports. When it comes to professional and/or Olympic sports, however, I'd see things in the same vein that I'm glad we no longer have castrati playing counter-tenor roles in the opera these days. I'd hate to see genetic and hormonal manipulation for the purposes of professional and/or international sports (especially for those in which height and muscle mass offer a distinct advantage). If the Russians and Chinese weren't so ant-trans, just think of how many trans female athletes we'd have. In those countries, I'd suspect many would be forced to undergo a transition even if they didn't want to. 

[BSR]

1 hour ago, Unicorn said:

For me, it depends on the sport and the venue. I don't see it as an issue in amateur or college sports. When it comes to professional and/or Olympic sports, however, I'd see things in the same vein that I'm glad we no longer have castrati playing counter-tenor roles in the opera these days. I'd hate to see genetic and hormonal manipulation for the purposes of professional and/or international sports (especially for those in which height and muscle mass offer a distinct advantage). If the Russians and Chinese weren't so ant-trans, just think of how many trans female athletes we'd have. In those countries, I'd suspect many would be forced to undergo a transition even if they didn't want to. 

Not an issue in amateur or college sports?  What about the cisgendered female athletes who know that no matter how hard they train and compete, they don't have a snowball's chance once a MTF trans woman enters the competition?  Do cis women not matter?  Why not?

Trans women's participation in women's sports is just starting.  The numbers will grow.  How many cis girls will lose out on scholarships because they were beaten by trans girls?  What do we tell the high school girls who missed out?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, BSR said:

Not an issue in amateur or college sports?  What about the cisgendered female athletes who know that no matter how hard they train and compete, they don't have a snowball's chance once a MTF trans woman enters the competition?  Do cis women not matter?  Why not?

Trans women's participation in women's sports is just starting.  The numbers will grow.  How many cis girls will lose out on scholarships because they were beaten by trans girls?  What do we tell the high school girls who missed out?

You really believe there will be an explosion of men getting surgery to become trans women so that they can get sports scholarships? I really don't think that will happen, or that trans women get surgery for any reason other than that they feel more comfortable in women's bodies. The number of trans women will probably always be small enough that they're not going to prevent most cis women from getting sports scholarships, really. I could see how that could be a problem if there really were a number of men who transitioned in order to snatch sports scholarships from cis women. But I don't see that happening. 

[BSR]

1 hour ago, Unicorn said:

You really believe there will be an explosion of men getting surgery to become trans women so that they can get sports scholarships? I really don't think that will happen, or that trans women get surgery for any reason other than that they feel more comfortable in women's bodies. The number of trans women will probably always be small enough that they're not going to prevent most cis women from getting sports scholarships, really. I could see how that could be a problem if there really were a number of men who transitioned in order to snatch sports scholarships from cis women. But I don't see that happening. 

Why do we need an "explosion"?  If even one cis female athlete loses out on a college scholarship, that is already one too many.  It hasn't happened yet, but it will.

I wonder about other swimmers in every race Lia Thomas enters.  I guess there is some honor in placing 2nd or 3rd, but I have to think it's terribly demotivating to know you have zero chance of winning.  Lia Thomas might be the first trans woman to demolish the competition, but she won't be the last.

What exactly is the benefit of allowing trans women to obliterate cis women in amateur and college sports?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, BSR said:

...What exactly is the benefit of allowing trans women to obliterate cis women in amateur and college sports?

So there'll be an occasional star college athlete. Believe me, if I were to become a trans woman, I'd still suck at all sports. Life's difficult enough for trans people. You really think it's such a big deal that there'll be the occasional college scholarship given to a trans woman because of her larger size? Do you know of anyone else other than that one trans woman? Is there some kind of large number of cis women being denied college scholarships? 

[BSR]

29 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

So there'll be an occasional star college athlete. Believe me, if I were to become a trans woman, I'd still suck at all sports. Life's difficult enough for trans people. You really think it's such a big deal that there'll be the occasional college scholarship given to a trans woman because of her larger size? Do you know of anyone else other than that one trans woman? Is there some kind of large number of cis women being denied college scholarships? 

So the benefit of allowing trans women to compete against cis women is to help trans people because trans people have difficult lives?  Well, one person's rights end where another's begin.  Every cis woman who competes against Lia Thomas is being denied the chance of winning.  Why bother training and sacrificing if you have no chance to win??  Every cis woman in a race with Lia Thomas is supposed to sacrifice her chance of winning just to make the trans community feel better about themselves?

That's the second time you've made the argument of "large number of cis women being denied college scholarships."  I answered you before, so please either address my counter, or stop repeating yourself.  While no cis woman has yet been denied a college scholarship because she was beaten out by a trans woman, given the undeniable physical superiority of trans women, it's a matter of when, not if.  If you think one case doesn't matter, then one case of a gay man being fired for being gay doesn't matter, one case of a gay woman being denied custody of her children just for being gay doesn't matter.

One case matters because all individual rights matter.  The rights of the woman who placed 2nd in every race that Lia Thomas won matter.  The rights of even one cis high school girl denied a scholarship because she was beaten out by a trans girl against whom she had no chance matters.

If you want to improve the quality of life for trans people, I'm all for it.  But you cannot rob others of their rights in your pursuit.

[Guest]

I don't think anyone's rights are being denied. We're all endowed with positives and negatives, strengths and weaknesses. Trans women didn't "cheat" to get where they are. I don't think that a cis woman will be denied an athletic scholarship because of trans women. If they're good, they'll get a scholarship somewhere else. Lia Thomas is not a cheater. She didn't choose her body. I don't think she's denying anyone other women their rights.

[BSR]

5 minutes ago, Unicorn said:

I don't think anyone's rights are being denied. We're all endowed with positives and negatives, strengths and weaknesses. Trans women didn't "cheat" to get where they are. I don't think that a cis woman will be denied an athletic scholarship because of trans women. If they're good, they'll get a scholarship somewhere else. Lia Thomas is not a cheater. She didn't choose her body. I don't think she's denying anyone other women their rights.

College scholarships are a zero sum game.  Even if, say, 100,000 athletic scholarships are available to high school girls, plenty of girls do not get a scholarship.  If even 1 trans girl gets a college athletic scholarship, that means 1 cis girl loses out.  You say that you don't think it will happen, but given the height/strength/speed advantages of biological males, how can it not happen?  And when, not if, it does happen, even if just 1 cis girl loses out on a scholarship, that matters.

I am not saying Lia Thomas is a cheater, and of course she didn't choose her body.  When competing against men as Will Thomas, Will's physique was no different from other male swimmers.  But look at Lia's height, her armspan, and her musculature and compare them to the cis women she competes against.  There is no comparison.  One of the advantages Michael Phelps had was his unusually long armspan, but at least he was competing against other men.  Lia Thomas was born with a man's armspan but is competing against cis women.

When Will Thomas competed against other men, he was ranked #462.  Now that Lia Thomas is competing against cis women, she is ranked #1 and wins every race she enters.  The advantages of someone born a biological male who competes against cis women are undeniable.  Yet you continue to deny them.  And you continue to deny the rights of the women who place 2nd in every race Lia Thomas enters.

[+ sam.fitzpatrick]

18 hours ago, Unicorn said:

I don't think anyone's rights are being denied. We're all endowed with positives and negatives, strengths and weaknesses. Trans women didn't "cheat" to get where they are. I don't think that a cis woman will be denied an athletic scholarship because of trans women. If they're good, they'll get a scholarship somewhere else. Lia Thomas is not a cheater. She didn't choose her body. I don't think she's denying anyone other women their rights.

But that somewhere else might not be the 10 top ten academic program in the desired field of study.