@BuffaloKyle, will the Bills be able to extort a new stadium out of Buffalo?

[samhexum]

I read that they're threatening to move unless the taxpayers give them a new stadium.  What a novel approach for a pro sports team!  What's the feeling locally?

[BuffaloKyle]

Haha, they are not really threatening at this point. They are basically just trying to figure out the amount the taxpayers will pay and how much the owners will pay. And that all goes through the capital in Albany. The new governor Kathy Hochul is from Buffalo so she knows how this needs to get done.

[samhexum]

8 minutes ago, BuffaloKyle said:

The new governor Kathy Hochul is from Buffalo so she knows how this needs to get done.

Bribes, graft and back-alley deals?

[+ purplekow]

That is how all government deals get made.  A new stadium will provide construction jobs and keeping the team there will generate many ancillary jobs.  Professional sports teams have leverage in that way and they use it.  And should the government elect not to kick in the team is gone.  Witness the Oakland now Vegas Raiders and the San Diego now Los Angeles Chargers and the St Louis now Los Angeles Rams.  The St Louis now Arizona Cardinals are another recent example.  

I do not know if the stadium plan in Buffalo is for a solo use football stadium or if it is planned to be a multi sport stadium for Football and baseball or two connected stadium with two separate playing areas.  In any case, Buffalo in the winter has wind, snow and the Bills and only one of them are not making people miserable these days. 

 

[samhexum]

On 10/4/2021 at 3:17 AM, purplekow said:

Buffalo in the winter has wind, snow and the Bills and only one of them are not making people miserable these days.

You think that many people like snow?

😱😁😎🤣😇

Edited March 12, 2022 by samhexum
just for the hell of it

[BSR]

1 hour ago, purplekow said:

That is how all government deals get made.  A new stadium will provide construction jobs and keeping the team there will generate many ancillary jobs.  Professional sports teams have leverage in that way and they use it.  And should the government elect not to kick in the team is gone.  Witness the Oakland now Vegas Raiders and the San Diego now Los Angeles Chargers and the St Louis now Los Angeles Rams.  The St Louis now Arizona Cardinals are another recent example.  

I do not know if the stadium plan in Buffalo is for a solo use football stadium or if it is planned to be a multi sport stadium for Football and baseball or two connected stadium with two separate playing areas.  In any case, Buffalo in the winter has wind, snow and the Bills and only one of them are not making people miserable these days. 

 

Those who favor taxpayer funding for stadiums use some very shady accounting to exaggerate future tax revenue from jobs created and new business generated.  Unfortunately, reality always falls well short of the projections' starry-eyed optimism.  In the end, the taxpayers end up forking over a lot of money to the team owners to keep the team in their city.  It's welfare for billionaires.

[+ purplekow]

There is no doubt the team owners make money but the local jurisdiction also makes money.  If a team leaves, the jurisdiction is left with a large stadium with very little practical use and loses the income the team generated.  So with the owners having the upper hand in regard to staying or going, each jurisdiction should carefully determine if a new stadium makes sense for them.  That there is corruption and bribery is an unfortunate aspect of every kind of government transaction from dog licenses to garbage collection to a new stadium. The better and more honest a local government, the more likely that the jurisdiction will do well with the deal.

[BuffaloKyle]

17 hours ago, purplekow said:

A new stadium will provide construction jobs and keeping the team there will generate many ancillary jobs.

Our local politicians have been trying to get worked into the new stadium deal that all the jobs to build the stadium should be all local citizens who come from low income areas of the city and need the jobs the most. 

[+ bashful]

Will be interesting to see how the Bears’ move to the suburbs plays out.   Mayor Lightfoot wants them to stay in the city, but I don’t think that will happen.

Edited October 22, 2021 by bashful

[BuffaloKyle]

2 hours ago, bashful said:

Will be interesting to see how the Bears’ move to the suburbs plays out.   Mayor Lightfoot wants them to stay in the city, but I don’t think that will happen.

They are having the same thing play out here. The Bills play in Orchard Park which is a suburb of Buffalo. They want to build the new stadium across the street from the current one but, mainly the media it seems, wants to bring up the idea of building it in downtown Buffalo. There just is no parking and no place to put it. It's fine in Orchard Park. It's not all that far from downtown anyway really. 

Edited October 23, 2021 by BuffaloKyle

[+ bashful]

23 hours ago, BuffaloKyle said:

They are having the same thing play out here. The Bills play in Orchard Park which is a suburb of Buffalo. They want to build the new stadium across the street from the current one but, mainly the media it seems, wants to bring up the idea of building it in downtown Buffalo. There just is no parking and no place to put it. It's fine in Orchard Park. It's not all that far from downtown anyway really. 

Getting to Soldier Field is not easy for suburbanites.  I’ve never been there, so can’t comment on parking, but the commuter rail stations (Union and Ogilvie) are about three miles away.  A bit of a hike, and only worse in Chicago weather, and under the influence of alcohol.  

Arlington Park is an established stop on the Metra line out of Ogilvie, right next to the place.  Wouldn’t be a long ride from the city, about 40 to 60 minutes or so depending on stops.  Once it stops at Arlington Park, you’re there.  Get off the train, and walk a few feet onto the property.  Managing the crowds will require expanding the platform a little east, and further west (plenty of land), and working with Metra on special schedules and extra cars like they do with Ravinia concerts, just on a larger scale. 

There is also a freeway along side Arlington Park.  I hope they’ll consider creating designated ramps for entering and exiting the stadium so less traffic backs up on the surface streets around the stadium.   However, I don’t think the state has any appetite to use public money for that, nor should they since since finances are in shambles due to rich pensions promised, that are under funded. Too bad states can’t declare bankruptcy, but I digress.

The other drawback with Soldier is seating, or specifically not enough seats to host a super bowl.  Chicago would finally get to host a Super Bowl at a new stadium. 

I’m very close to the new location.  Just two stops away on Metra in a neighboring suburb.  I’m in favor of it.

[samhexum]

On 10/22/2021 at 10:32 PM, BuffaloKyle said:

They are having the same thing play out here. The Bills play in Orchard Park which is a suburb of Buffalo. They want to build the new stadium across the street from the current one but, mainly the media it seems, wants to bring up the idea of building it in downtown Buffalo. There just is no parking and no place to put it. It's fine in Orchard Park. It's not all that far from downtown anyway really. 

Just clear out any 10 square block section of downtown Buffalo.  Would anyone really notice?  😝😇😁🤣😎

[BuffaloKyle]

12 hours ago, samhexum said:

Just clear out any 10 square block section of downtown Buffalo.  Would anyone really notice?  😝😇😁🤣😎

That's basically what they are proposing. But then again there's no where to park. 

[samhexum]

On 9/18/2021 at 2:17 AM, BuffaloKyle said:

The new governor Kathy Hochul is from Buffalo so she knows how this needs to get done.

 

On 9/18/2021 at 2:25 AM, samhexum said:

Bribes, graft and back-alley deals?

 

On 10/4/2021 at 3:17 AM, purplekow said:

That is how all government deals get made.  

 

On 10/4/2021 at 5:13 AM, BSR said:

Those who favor taxpayer funding for stadiums use some very shady accounting to exaggerate future tax revenue from jobs created and new business generated.  Unfortunately, reality always falls well short of the projections' starry-eyed optimism.  In the end, the taxpayers end up forking over a lot of money to the team owners to keep the team in their city.  It's welfare for billionaires.

 

On 10/22/2021 at 10:32 PM, BuffaloKyle said:

The Bills play in Orchard Park which is a suburb of Buffalo. They want to build the new stadium across the street from the current one but, mainly the media it seems, wants to bring up the idea of building it in downtown Buffalo. There just is no parking and no place to put it. It's fine in Orchard Park. It's not all that far from downtown anyway really. 

 

On 10/23/2021 at 9:42 PM, bashful said:

Getting to Soldier Field is not easy for suburbanites...  The other drawback with Soldier is seating, or specifically not enough seats to host a super bowl... I’m very close to the new location.  Just two stops away on Metra in a neighboring suburb.  I’m in favor of it.

Buffalo Bills’ billionaire owner set to get $1B in public funds for new stadium

 

The billionaire owner of the Buffalo Bills appears poised to get a record amount of public funding for a new stadium in what critics are calling an unprecedented giveaway.

Gov. Kathy Hochul — a Buffalo native — is expected to announce in the next several days a deal in which New York State and Erie County agree to pay nearly $1 billion toward a new $1.4 billion stadium that will be located next to the current one, sources close to the situation told The Post.

That would be the most public money ever spent on building a US stadium, University of Michigan sports management professor Mark Rosentraub told The Post.

The proposal for public funding would be part of the New York budget that needs to be submitted by April 1 to the state Legislature. If it passes, the stadium, which would be designed by an architectural firm called Populous, would be open as soon as 2026.

Bills Owner Terry Pegula — a fracking mogul worth more than $7 billion — had threatened to move the team from Buffalo if he didn’t get public funding to build a new stadium. But there was debate, as The Post reported in September, about whether he was bluffing, considering how closely he’s associated with Western New York.

A veteran New York government lobbyist says it appears government officials bought into the threat — even if it was a bluff. “Everyone in government folded like a cheap suit,” the lobbyist, who didn’t want to be named and isn’t involved in the negotiations, told The Post. “I am stunned.”

The lobbyist said it appears negotiations have happened behind closed doors, the lobbyist said. The lobbyist slammed the idea of Pegula’s team getting a billion dollars in public funding when there are more pressing needs like universal child care.

Jim Wilkinson, a spokesman for Pegula Sports Entertainment, told The Post that an agreement isn’t final and that there was still work to do to seal the deal.

Still, he said: “The governor has done an outstanding job in getting everyone to the table together, and we continue to make strong progress.”

A spokesperson for Hochul said in response to a query from The Post: “Any reports of details are premature. As we have said repeatedly, negotiations are ongoing.”

Rosentraub, the Michigan professor and expert on public financing of stadiums, said the apparent New York deal is an outlier compared to other recent stadium projects, such as the Las Vegas Raiders domed stadium that costs taxpayers $750 million.

“The new stadium allows Vegas to host 13 to 15 events a year like concerts it couldn’t host before because of the summer heat,” said Rosentraub, who worked on the Vegas project. He said because of those events, there was some rationale for public investment.

But he said it’s hard to see the public benefit to a new Bills stadium, which won’t be domed — and therefore won’t be a hot ticket during Buffalo’s brutal winters. “If you say the only benefit is keeping the team that’s a tough one to justify,” he said.

The new stadium would be built next to the current one — which opened in 1973 — in the Buffalo suburbs.

There was discussion about building a new stadium in downtown Buffalo so it could revitalize the city. That’s what happened in cities like Minneapolis and Indianapolis, though they were expensive public projects.

“When making an investment in a stadium in a suburb it’s hard to find the public benefit,” Rosentraub said. “Without a realistic development strategy, I’d argue this funding is quite unusual.”

He said Hochul and her team would’ve been better-served offering perhaps $1 billion toward a new stadium — but only if it were to be build in downtown Buffalo and only if Pegula would’ve at least matched the public funds.

Pegula has argued that he’s already spent hundreds of millions of dollars in developments for Western New York — he also owns the Buffalo Sabres hockey team — and was reluctant to plow more than a billion dollars more of his own money into a new stadium for the Bills.

He let it be known it made little financial sense to spend $1 billion himself on a stadium in Buffalo because it is just too small a market, with a metropolitan area of a little more than a million people.

https://nypost.com/2022/03/11/buffalo-bills-billionaire-owner-set-to-get-1b-in-public-funds-for-new-stadium/

[samhexum]

On 9/18/2021 at 2:17 AM, BuffaloKyle said:

governor Kathy Hochul is from Buffalo so she knows how this needs to get done.

Kathy Hochul needlessly handing $850M to Buffalo Bills, legal experts say

 

Gov. Kathy Hochul’s $850 million handout for a new Buffalo Bills stadium has bewildered experts, who say a recent, headline-grabbing legal case involving the Los Angeles Rams sets a strong precedent that could enable New York to cut a better deal.

This week, Gov. Hochul announced the eye-popping sweetener from taxpayers, which will amount to the most public money ever spent on building a US stadium. The New York State Assembly will consider in the next few weeks whether to approve the $600 million from the state as part of the 2022 budget. Erie County is providing the other $250 million.

Meanwhile, insiders point out that New York is taking on the massive tab despite the fact that in November, the city of St. Louis won a $790 million settlement in a suit against the NFL and Rams owner Stan Kroenke for moving the franchise to Los Angeles without first engaging in “good-faith” negotiations to stay put.

A year after the NFL granted Kroenke the right to move the Rams to Los Angeles, officials for St. Louis, St. Louis County and the government entity that owns the stadium sued the NFL and Kroenke, citing league relocation guidelines it claimed require teams “to work diligently and in good faith to obtain and maintain suitable stadium facilities in their home territories.”

Cities including Oakland, Calif. in the past have sued the NFL for moving teams over antitrust issues but not the NFL’s own relocation policy.

The windfall for St. Louis — which had sued for $1 billion in 2017 and whose case had been slated to go to trial in January — has sparked an intense debate on whether Kroenke should foot the entire bill himself or whether other NFL team owners should also pony up. NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell has created an ad-hoc committee of owners to hash it out.

Whoever ends up paying, it’s clear that the NFL wouldn’t be enthusiastic about another such case, notes Mark Rosentraub, a sports management professor at the University of Michigan who has done extensive research on public funding for sports facilities.

“That settlement told me the NFL didn’t want to go to court,” Rosentraub said. “That is evidence if Buffalo put forth a real proposal it would be hard for the Bills to move since we know you can challenge the NFL. It is not a hypothetical.”

In particular, NFL teams — the Buffalo Bills included — face the awkward fact that they effectively are granted monopolies by local governments in their respective markets. In exchange, it can become complicated for a franchise to pick up and move to another market, Rosentraub said.

“We disagree with this flawed legal analysis, and the conclusion that Buffalo should be more like St. Louis — a city with no football team,” a spokesperson for Gov. Hochul told The Post in a statement.

Privately, sources close to the situation say Hochul’s team never spoke to the St. Louis legal team to inform their negotiations with the Bills’ billionaire owner Terry Pegula. Hochul’s team claimed it was aware of the Kroenke case, but felt that it was a different situation because Kroenke allegedly misrepresented his intentions to St. Louis, according to the sources.

Nevertheless, Gov. Hochul’s largesse to the Bills has baffled bystanders including Michael Agguire, a California-based attorney who on Jan. 25 sued the NFL and the Los Angeles Chargers in San Diego Superior Court for moving the team in 2017 to LA from San Diego.

“It is kind of surprising if Governor Hochul didn’t reach out to the St. Louis lawyers and speak about her options,” Agguire told The Post. “The St. Louis result basically means cities now have a Magna Carta that protects them from unreasonable demands from the NFL monopoly. St. Louis opened up a whole new corridor of cases.”

Responding to the suggestion that the Bills would have a hard time moving, a Pegula Sports Entertainment spokesman told The Post: “Relocation could have been a very real possibility if the governor had not worked so hard to get everyone to the table.”

The governor’s spokesperson added that “The Buffalo Bills franchise is a proven economic driver for the Buffalo region and the state,” noting that it generates $27 million annually in direct income, sales and use taxes for New York State, Erie County and Buffalo.

The governor’s office predicts that those revenues will total $1.6 billion over a 30-year lease period and bring more than $385 million to the Buffalo area each year.

https://nypost.com/2022/03/31/kathy-hochul-needlessly-handing-850m-to-buffalo-bills-legal-experts-say/

[BuffaloKyle]

The Bills finally released the first official renderings of what the stadium will look like outside and inside:

https://www.buffalobills.com/news/stadium-news

Looks pretty cool!

[bretts2002]

Josh Allen is a pretty darn hot dude!

[samhexum]

NFL bettor loses $2 million in horrific Bills ‘Monday Night Football’ loss

@BuffaloKyle what did you do?!?!?!

 

 

Bills fan killed in hit-and-run incident during 'Monday Night Football' loss

There is no suspect in custody at this time, but New York State and Buffalo Police later located a vehicle believed to have been involved.

@BuffaloKyle what did you do?!?!?!

[BuffaloKyle]

I was at work during the game I am innocent! 😇

Oh and they do have a suspect in custody now in the hit and run.

[samhexum]

On 10/27/2022 at 9:39 AM, BuffaloKyle said:

The Bills finally released the first official renderings of what the stadium will look like outside and inside:

https://www.buffalobills.com/news/stadium-news

Looks pretty cool!

Kathy Hochul’s decision to fork over taxpayer money to build a new stadium for the Buffalo Bills drew renewed scorn – after the NFL team’s billionaire owners sold a minority stake for a massive profit, The Post has learned.   

Hochul, a Buffalo native, had agreed in 2022 to provide $600 million in state funding – with Erie Country tossing in an additional $250 million – for the privately-owned stadium after Bills owner Terry Pegula threatened to leave Western New York. 

The new 62,000-seat Highmark Stadium, expected to open in 2026, played a significant role in inflating the value of the Bills by more than $2 billion – yet the state will not get any significant return on its investment, critics of the so-called Buffalo boondoggle claimed.  

“The investment proves what everyone knew: the deal was great … if you are the Bills’ owner but not so for the people of Buffalo or the state,” an adviser to former Gov. Andrew Cuomo, familiar with the Bills stadium deliberations, told The Post. 

Dr. Mark Rosentraub, director of the Center for Sports Venues at the University of Michigan, noted that there will be no direct benefit to Buffalo residents since the new stadium is being built next to the antiquated one in the suburb of Orchard Park.  

“This was an egregious deal. There is no other way around it,” Rosentraub said.

“Had this facility been built in Downtown Buffalo it might have stimulated the economy. But they are just replicating what they had in the same place.”

Hochul’s office defended the stadium deal.

“In 2013, the State agreed to a deal where nearly 75% of the Bills’ stadium renovation was funded by the taxpayers — today, this new stadium is being constructed with less than 30% in State funding, a figure that is substantially below other recent NFL stadium projects,” a spokesperson for the governor said.

The Hochul rep claimed the new Bills stadium project is injecting $2.1 billion into New York’s economy.

Pegula, who paid $1.4 billion for the Bills in 2014, had threatened to move the team to Austin, Texas, without public funding.

But legally the Bills could not relocate if the government made a good faith effort to keep the team, Rosentraub said.

That could have included lending him the money to build a stadium — which is expected to cost $2.1 billion — instead of giving the deep-pocketed Pegula a handout.

There was no public funding for the last two NFL stadiums built: SoFi Stadium in Los Angeles and Allegiant Stadium in Las Vegas, which both opened in 2020.

“Pegula negotiated the best deal for his business. The fault lies with the public sector, not the private sector,” Rosentraub said.

The Bills were worth $3.4 billion when Hochul agreed to the deal, according to Forbes.

Since then, the value of NFL teams has exploded. The average franchise is now worth $6.49 billion, and no team is valued at less than $5.25 billion, according to CNBC’s Official 2024 NFL Team Valuations. 

In August, the league for the first time allowed private equity to buy up to a 10% stake in NFL teams.

Pegula took full advantage. Earlier this month, the fracking mogul sold a 10% stake to Arctos Partners – and another 10% to 10 limited partners led by NBA Hall of Famer Vince Carter – at a $5.8 billion valuation.

The Bills, who lead the AFC East this season and are one of the favorites to win what would be their first Super Bowl title, are expected to get a boost in revenue from the new stadium from personal seat licenses, suite sales and sponsorships.

“Having a new stadium is a nice thing,” one banker told The Post. “It makes it a much more attractive investment.”

“Did it add 10% to the value? Yes, and that’s our tax money at work,” the banker said.

A second banker added: “I think the new stadium is not insignificant when valuing the team.” 

Hochul had previously drawn criticism for the alleged sweetheart deal. Her husband, William Hochul, is a former top administrator with the Buffalo Bills’ concessionaire, Delaware North.

She defended the decision during a press conference in March 2022.

“I went into these negotiations trying to answer three questions – how long can we keep the Bills in Buffalo, how can we make sure this project benefits the hardworking men and women of Western New York and how can we get the best deal for taxpayers?” she said. 

“I’m pleased that after months of negotiations, we’ve come out with the best answers possible – the Bills will stay in Buffalo for another 30 years, the project will create 10,000 union jobs and New Yorkers can rest assured that their investment will be recouped by the economic activity the team generates.”

 

Edited December 17, 2024 by samhexum
to ensure maximum delight for the reader!

[BuffaloKyle]

Well part of the reason I believe the Pegulas just sold a minority stake is that the cost of the new stadium has gone up roughly $500 million from the estimated cost since construction was started. The Pegulas are responsible for 100% of that. The Dolphins and Raiders just sold minority shares as well so it's not that unusual now to do.

[BSR]

On 12/17/2024 at 12:56 PM, samhexum said:

New Yorkers can rest assured that their investment will be recouped by the economic activity the team generates.”

Hmm, I’m always suspicious of politicians in every aspect but especially when they claim that the taxpayer money given to billionaire team owners will be “recouped by the economic activity the team generates.”  Study after study proves that’s simply not true (oh shock!).  But politicians fear that they’ll be committing career suicide if a beloved team leaves when their demands aren’t met.  So they come up with some “report” showing that the government will get its money back by means of future tax revenue, never mind that the report would make any self-respecting accountant spray his coffee across the room.

[+ Vegas_Millennial]

On 12/17/2024 at 3:56 AM, samhexum said:

There was no public funding for the last two NFL stadiums built: SoFi Stadium in Los Angeles and Allegiant Stadium in Las Vegas, which both opened in 2020.

Quite the opposite.  The Allegiant Stadium was 100% funded with tax payers dollars (only the land belonged to the Raiders, tax dollars paid for 100% of stadium construction), and the land and the stadium will belong to the owner of the Raiders at the end of 30 years.  It is paid by an increase in hotel room tax.  What did the taxpayers get besides a traffic nightmare before and after each game?  The local university is allowed to use the stadium for its football games for the next 30 years, provided the university reimburse the Raiders owners for the cost of operating the stadium on University game days.  Hardly a win for taxpayers.