Why should I care about Covid? I'm vaccinated.

[+ WilliamM]

The VA hospital in Philadelphia cancelled my appointment for the covid vaccine on February 10 due to no vaccine left.

 

More sheltering in place, I guess

Edited February 6, 2021 by WilliamM

[Luv2play]

Not quite. These are the actual data:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2035389

"... Severe Covid-19 occurred in 30 participants, with one fatality; all 30 were in the placebo group. Moderate, transient reactogenicity after vaccination occurred more frequently in the mRNA-1273 group. Serious adverse events were rare, and the incidence was similar in the two groups..."

 

So a few people in the vaccinated group had detectable virus, and none got seriously ill.

So I take it that if they got the virus even after vaccination, they could still spread it to others.

[Guest]

So I take it that if they got the virus even after vaccination, they could still spread it to others.

No, no, no. Not a single person who's been fully vaccinated has spread it to a single other person. The reason is probably because, per studies done by the South Korean CDC and others (links posted in prior strings), it is fairly common for people to carry virus in the nasal/respiratory passages even after achieving immunity, but those particles are inactive/unable to transmit infection. This info is also available on the US CDC's website. Since there have been millions vaccinated in the US alone, this really confirms that the vaccinated can't spread it.

[Luv2play]

I don’t know what alternative universe you are living in. The British government said this week that none of the 3 vaccines approved by them, Pfizer, Moderna, nor AstraZeneca, offer proof that vaccinated individuals cannot spread the virus. Authorities here in Canada are saying the same thing. We are being told we must still practice the same precautions after getting vaccinated.

[+ tassojunior]

I think that there have been no studies yet because it's assumed for every other single virus not being able to be spread by those immune or vaccinated. They are doing confirmation studies now but I think there's little reason to believe Covid is different. It was a major media concern for a day or two which was quickly shot down by specialists.

 

One thing I find infuriating is that the CDC scheduled a meeting for a month out to approve the J&J vaccine. No rush guys, not like we're in a pandemic or anything.

[coriolis888]

 

I don’t know what alternative universe you are living in.

 

 

That is a rather heavy-duty comment to make considering what he wrote is supported by reputable scientific studies.

 

Admittedly, there are other studies that conclude that vaccinated people can carry and spread the virus.

 

There is conflicting information published daily or even hourly.

 

Here is a link to a study done by a medical center that ranks in the top ten in The WORLD that supports what he wrote:

 

https://www.ynetnews.com/health_science/article/H1jaK7mkd

Edited February 6, 2021 by coriolis888

[Guest]

I don’t know what alternative universe you are living in. The British government said this week that none of the 3 vaccines approved by them, Pfizer, Moderna, nor AstraZeneca, offer proof that vaccinated individuals cannot spread the virus. Authorities here in Canada are saying the same thing. We are being told we must still practice the same precautions after getting vaccinated.

That's only true in the sense that the studies were never designed to show that vaccinated individuals cannot spread the virus. That was not the purpose of the studies. This would have delayed reporting the study results, especially since it's more challenging to prove that something doesn't happen. So, technically true, but highly misleading. That being said, public health officials track how these infections are spread, and so far no vaccinated person has spread any disease, despite tens of millions of fully vaccinated individuals. This goes along with every other vaccine ever developed, since Edward Jenner developed the first vaccine against smallpox in the 18th century. The reason that we must all practice masking in public is that there is no practical way of identifying the vaccinated from the unvaccinated. So we will have to continue the masking in public until everyone has had the opportunity to get vaccinated. The only reason I have workers in my house come in with masks (if they have no history of infection or immunization) is for concern for my new partner "Diego." As my family members and friends get vaccinated (my step-mother finally got her first Pfizer shot today, and I think my brother and sister-in-law are coming up soon), they will be invited to my house for dinner, maskless. "Diego"'s turn may not come up until May or June.

[Luv2play]

Try going to mayoclinic.org and checking out their advice about wearing masks after receiving vaccination for COVID. They absolutely recommend it because of the risk of transmitting the virus to others, even though the vaccinated person shows no symptoms. They can still harbour the virus and spread it.

 

Similar advice is on the CDC website.

[Luv2play]

The good news is that once you receive the vaccine, even if you get exposed to the virus, you are not likely to become seriously ill or die.

[Guest]

....

Similar advice is on the CDC website.

As you have been told previously, the reason public health officials are recommending that the vaccinated continue to wear masks is for practical reasons, not scientific ones. Tens of millions of people have been vaccinated. If transmission from vaccinated people happened, even rarely, we would know about it by now. If you have any real evidence of transmission from the vaccinated, please provide the link. If not, please be quiet.

[+ keroscenefire]

Personally I think it's a good idea to take basic COVID precautions (wearing a mask, socially distance, not gathering in large crowds) for the time being just because it's the polite and respectful thing to do regardless of whether or not you have a COVID vaccine.

 

That's not to say you can't relax those precautions somewhat. I often walk outdoors without a mask when there are few people around, but put it right back on when I get closer to to people not necessarily because I think it'll make anyone much safer, but just because I think it's the polite thing to do. It puts the other person's mind at ease.

 

I don't honestly think masking and many other precautions are going away anytime soon even once most people are vaccinated. I think we'll still see people wearing masks on public transit, airplanes and groceries for some time to come. People are starting to get used to. masking and will see the obvious benefits of protecting from other coronavirus or the flu. It was already pretty common in Asia and I think it will become pretty common worldwide.

[Luv2play]

As you have been told previously, the reason public health officials are recommending that the vaccinated continue to wear masks is for practical reasons, not scientific ones. Tens of millions of people have been vaccinated. If transmission from vaccinated people happened, even rarely, we would know about it by now. If you have any real evidence of transmission from the vaccinated, please provide the link. If not, please be quiet.

You seem to be assuming contact tracing is working 100 percent of the cases of infection. We know that is not the case, particularly in areas where the number of recent infections is high. This certainly pertains to most of the US states which includes California.

 

The reason people are being told to wear masks after being vaccinated is based on a knowledge of the science, both what has been tested through trials and what has not been tested. You can still apply scientific theory to what has not been tested by looking at the transmissions of other viruses in situations where vaccinated subjects have infected others, even though not getting sick themselves.

 

Time will tell whether this is the case with COVID and the current batch of vaccines on the market. The most recent evidence is that AstraZeneca is promising in this regard. My understanding is that trials are being conducted on Pfizer and Moderna but will take time to produce the evidence.

[+ tassojunior]

Washington Post is out with a front page scare story today headlining those who already had Covid can be re-infected with the variant. We've known those who had regular Covid could be re-infected with regular Covid for a long time so what's the point WaPo except to fill page space with stuff that grabs readers? Even the vaccinated run a chance in single digits at least of contracting Covid. We've known that. The issue is what chance in such re-infections or vaccinated infections there is of serious illness or death. At least in vaccinated infections, it seems to be low. (Not as scary a headline). What passes for "journalism" today would make a lot of high school editors blush. https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/02/05/virus-variant-reinfection-south-africa/

 

Mask laws need to stay in place for a good while as there's no way to tell who's a possible carrier or not. (Those of us on the coasts may be surprised how few mask-wearers there are in the rest of the country). But those of us over-protecting, ie. wearing masks outdoors, using hand sanitizer, and wearing two masks, etc can probably start easing up a couple or three weeks after a booster shot. There's only so much you can help others by setting an example.

[Guest]

You seem to be assuming contact tracing is working 100 percent of the cases of infection...

Come on. Isn't that a bit ridiculous? Obviously contact tracing doesn't work 100% of the time and it would be silly to assume that. However, the Public Health Departments are involved, and most people do know from whom and how they got it (unless they're extremely careless). After so many millions of immunizations administered, it's very plain that if transmission from vaccinated people happens at all, it is an extremely rare phenomenon. This wasn't known at the conclusion of the study, but is pretty obvious at this point. One doesn't even need to make any assumptions or extrapolations based on other known studies of Covid-19 transmission or other immunizations. Pretty obvious unless you can't see what's right in front of you.

[Luv2play]

Come on. Isn't that a bit ridiculous? Obviously contact tracing doesn't work 100% of the time and it would be silly to assume that. However, the Public Health Departments are involved, and most people do know from whom and how they got it (unless they're extremely careless). After so many millions of immunizations administered, it's very plain that if transmission from vaccinated people happens at all, it is an extremely rare phenomenon. This wasn't known at the conclusion of the study, but is pretty obvious at this point. One doesn't even need to make any assumptions or extrapolations based on other known studies of Covid-19 transmission or other immunizations. Pretty obvious unless you can't see what's right in front of you.

In fact many people don't know who they got the virus from. Just take the example of "superspreader" events. But beyond those people can acquire it from casual contact.

 

And don't get me started on extremely careless people. You can see pictures of them everywhere, in crowds, in indoor situations.

 

On this forum, some members were talking about stripper bars in Fort Lauderdale where they are packed in on popular nights. You can't drink and wear a mask at the same time. And in Florida the virus is rampant.

[Luv2play]

Come on. Isn't that a bit ridiculous? Obviously contact tracing doesn't work 100% of the time and it would be silly to assume that. However, the Public Health Departments are involved, and most people do know from whom and how they got it (unless they're extremely careless). After so many millions of immunizations administered, it's very plain that if transmission from vaccinated people happens at all, it is an extremely rare phenomenon. This wasn't known at the conclusion of the study, but is pretty obvious at this point. One doesn't even need to make any assumptions or extrapolations based on other known studies of Covid-19 transmission or other immunizations. Pretty obvious unless you can't see what's right in front of you.

So I checked and about 75 percent of infections in the US are from unknown sources. Much the same in other countries with high rates of transmission. Contact tracers are overwhelmed in these countries.

 

So I have to ask. Where are you getting your information?

[marylander1940]

I think that there have been no studies yet because it's assumed for every other single virus not being able to be spread by those immune or vaccinated. They are doing confirmation studies now but I think there's little reason to believe Covid is different. It was a major media concern for a day or two which was quickly shot down by specialists.

 

One thing I find infuriating is that the CDC scheduled a meeting for a month out to approve the J&J vaccine. No rush guys, not like we're in a pandemic or anything.

 

That's why in the meantime we have to be cautious.

 

The CDC and other healthcare professionals have been working their asses off for almost a year without the help of the former president. Let's all be responsible!

[+ tassojunior]

Wow. Today we vaccinated 2.1 million people and the 7-day rolling average is 1.5M per day.

 

[Guest]

So I checked and about 75 percent of infections in the US are from unknown sources. Much the same in other countries with high rates of transmission. Contact tracers are overwhelmed in these countries.

 

So I have to ask. Where are you getting your information?

I love how you give specific numbers without citing your sources. I've had multiple patients and acquaintances get it, and virtually all of them knew exactly who gave them the virus. Just yesterday, the dude who cut my hair at Great Clips told me how he got it last summer from one of his room-mates, who was also a front-line worker (his other room-mates, of course, also contracted it). My designer got it from her son, who was in a car for 30 minutes maskless with 3 other friends. Patients would tell me "Yes, my husband brought it in. They had to shut down his plant" (etc.). However, for the sake of argument, let's accept your figure of 25% of infections being from identifiable sources. Well over 10 million people have received both doses of the vaccine around the world (over 2 million in the US alone). So far there has not been a single case reported of someone contracting Covid-19 from a vaccinated person.

 

So, YES or NO, do you think it is at all possible that contracting Covid-19 from a vaccinated person is anything but an extremely rare phenomenon? If your answer is YES, you are completely irrational and cannot be reasoned with. If your answer is NO, then you agree and that's that.

[josh282282]

Unicorn: you are still going on supposition, and not DATA. That is an is unscientific approach. We currently have no robust evidence to give a percentage of the chance a fully vaccinated person has in transmitting the virus.

 

So, YES or NO, do you think it is at all possible that contracting Covid-19 from a vaccinated person is anything but an extremely rare phenomenon?

 

So for me, I cant (and wont) answer that question because it's too soon. I have not (yet) seen the data (because there isnt any yet) to be able to answer that such an event is an

extremely rare phenomenon

But I suspect Covid-19 transmission from a fully vaccinated person is.... uncommon. So you and are at least ...close... to same page?

 

Rather, you are proposing a HYPOTHESIS, which is testable. For example:

I propose that a Covid-19 vaccinated individual transmitting the virus, resulting in active infection in others is a rare event.

 

To answer that question we need rigorously constructed research resulting in evidence that can be peer-reviewed in a reputable scientific journal. Its premature to use the phrase "extremely rare phenomenon". But I certainly hope you are right!!!

 

I call upon more funding to the CDC and other research organizations so this important clinical question is answered.

 

Love to you, Unicorn and everyone else on this site.

Be safe.

[coriolis888]

 

-

Unicorn: you are still going on supposition, and not DATA. That is an is unscientific approach. We currently have no robust evidence to give a percentage of the chance a fully vaccinated person has in transmitting the virus.

 

 

 

So for me, I cant (and wont) answer that question because it's too soon. I have not (yet) seen the data (because there isnt any yet) to be able to answer that such an event is an

 

But I suspect Covid-19 transmission from a fully vaccinated person is.... uncommon. So you and are at least ...close... to same page?

 

you are still going on supposition, and not DATA. That is an is unscientific approach.

 

 

It is time to again revisit the below-linked study which discusses the very issue you claim has not been tested:

 

https://www.ynetnews.com/health_science/article/H1jaK7mkd

[Guest]

Unicorn: you are still going on supposition, and not DATA....

Wrong: there is data. The data is zero transmissions. Not rocket science. I'm not supposing anything. Zero transmissions is simply a fact. There may be transmissions discovered down the line, but given the denominator, there is no arguing that transmissions are very rare (if they happen at all, which I suppose there will eventually be), and negligible in quantity.

[coriolis888]

 

Wrong: there is data. The data is zero transmissions. Not rocket science. I'm not supposing anything. Zero transmissions is simply a fact. There may be transmissions discovered down the line, but given the denominator, there is no arguing that transmissions are very rare (if they happen at all, which I suppose there will eventually be), and negligible in quantity.

 

 

"Once my neighbors have had their second shot, is it safe to socialize with them without a mask or social distancing? Can they still get Covid (without becoming ill themselves) and pass it to me?"

 

Great question. This has been a source of confusion for a lot of Prognosis readers. We think of vaccines as working by preventing the transmission of disease. But that isn't necessarily the case.

 

“The short answer is we don’t quite know yet,” says Buddy Creech, director of Vanderbilt University's Vaccine Research Program.

 

Like many questions surrounding Covid-19, there just isn't enough data yet to say whether vaccines can stop the virus from spreading.

 

“The clinical trials of Covid vaccines thus far have focused primarily on preventing the symptoms and severity of Covid rather than evaluating the acquisition of the virus and transmission to others,” Creech says.

 

Patients who have been vaccinated can certainly still contract SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes Covid-19 and pass it on to others. There are two reasons for that, says Matthew Woodruff, an immunologist at Emory University.

 

First, he says, being vaccinated doesn't guarantee protection. Both the Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines have been shown to be extremely effective — about 95% — at preventing Covid symptoms, but that still means they won't work in some people.

“This means that in your neighborhood of 40 vaccinated individuals, even if everyone has followed CDC recommendations, there will still likely be two people at risk of contracting and spreading the disease,” Woodruff says. “We do know that those two people will likely have the less-severe disease than they would have otherwise, but I don't think anyone would seriously argue that they are incapable of transmission.”

 

Secondly, says Woodruff, being protected from symptoms of a disease isn't the same as being free from infection.

 

“It is certainly possible that patients that are otherwise protected from symptoms will still have low-level infections that they may not even notice,” he says.

 

Those caveats in mind, the coronavirus spreads most effectively through things like coughing and sneezing, so even just reducing symptomatic cases of the disease seems likely to slow the spread. Recent data have suggested that even one dose of the vaccine can drastically reduce viral infections. There is no reason to believe vaccines won't reduce transmission rates; it's just a question of by how much.

 

So while disease rates remain high, as they are now in the U.S., it's important to stick to public health recommendations such as social distancing and mask-wearing.

 

“As more and more individuals become vaccinated, it will become easier and easier to expand our bubble, eventually leading us to the point where masks and distancing will no longer be needed,” says Creech. “For us to get there as quickly as possible, our focus still has to be masks, hands, space, and vaccines.”

[Luv2play]

"Once my neighbors have had their second shot, is it safe to socialize with them without a mask or social distancing? Can they still get Covid (without becoming ill themselves) and pass it to me?"

 

Great question. This has been a source of confusion for a lot of Prognosis readers. We think of vaccines as working by preventing the transmission of disease. But that isn't necessarily the case.

 

“The short answer is we don’t quite know yet,” says Buddy Creech, director of Vanderbilt University's Vaccine Research Program.

 

Like many questions surrounding Covid-19, there just isn't enough data yet to say whether vaccines can stop the virus from spreading.

 

“The clinical trials of Covid vaccines thus far have focused primarily on preventing the symptoms and severity of Covid rather than evaluating the acquisition of the virus and transmission to others,” Creech says.

 

Patients who have been vaccinated can certainly still contract SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes Covid-19 and pass it on to others. There are two reasons for that, says Matthew Woodruff, an immunologist at Emory University.

 

First, he says, being vaccinated doesn't guarantee protection. Both the Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines have been shown to be extremely effective — about 95% — at preventing Covid symptoms, but that still means they won't work in some people.

“This means that in your neighborhood of 40 vaccinated individuals, even if everyone has followed CDC recommendations, there will still likely be two people at risk of contracting and spreading the disease,” Woodruff says. “We do know that those two people will likely have the less-severe disease than they would have otherwise, but I don't think anyone would seriously argue that they are incapable of transmission.”

 

Secondly, says Woodruff, being protected from symptoms of a disease isn't the same as being free from infection.

 

“It is certainly possible that patients that are otherwise protected from symptoms will still have low-level infections that they may not even notice,” he says.

 

Those caveats in mind, the coronavirus spreads most effectively through things like coughing and sneezing, so even just reducing symptomatic cases of the disease seems likely to slow the spread. Recent data have suggested that even one dose of the vaccine can drastically reduce viral infections. There is no reason to believe vaccines won't reduce transmission rates; it's just a question of by how much.

 

So while disease rates remain high, as they are now in the U.S., it's important to stick to public health recommendations such as social distancing and mask-wearing.

 

“As more and more individuals become vaccinated, it will become easier and easier to expand our bubble, eventually leading us to the point where masks and distancing will no longer be needed,” says Creech. “For us to get there as quickly as possible, our focus still has to be masks, hands, space, and vaccines.”

Thank you. That succinctly summarizes my views at this time in our current state of knowledge. I’ve been trying to convey that viewpoint but perhaps not as well as I could have.

[Guest]

...

“The short answer is we don’t quite know yet,” says Buddy Creech, director of Vanderbilt University's Vaccine Research Program.

...

First, he says, being vaccinated doesn't guarantee protection. Both the Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines have been shown to be extremely effective — about 95% — at preventing Covid symptoms, but that still means they won't work in some people.

...

I don't know when this was written, but if it was written in the last 2 weeks, the first statement is false. We did not "quite" know when the vaccines were first approved. However, at this time there have been many millions who've received both doses of the immunizations, so we do know now. It was true that we didn't quite know a few weeks ago, although even then it was very unlikely to be the case that the vaccinated could transmit the disease given what we already knew at that time. The implication that the vaccines "won't work" in some people is also rather misleading. I posted the link to the vaccine study previously:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2035389

There was only ONE hospitalization and ZERO deaths in the vaccinated group (30 and 1 in the unvaccinated group). And, as I've said multiple times before, a vaccinated person can always check for antibodies if he wants to be sure. Anyone can find someone to make a statement at some point to support his views. Hell, I can find someone make a statement to support the view that the earth is flat, or QAnon conspiracy theories (including a US Representative).

However, facts are simply facts. Period. It's interesting that whenever I bring up facts, those who disagree with me simply quote someone whose views support his. It's facts versus "Hey, so and so agrees with me!" (you didn't provide a link to the statement by Buddy Creech, so we don't know when that statement was made).

I also love the "It's certainly possible..." statement. Those are known as "weasel words." That can be said for just about anything. It's certainly possible that you will slip in the shower and snap your neck. However, that possibility is so remonte that no one takes the possibility seriously.

https://blog.hubspot.com/sales/weasel-words-sales-conversations

Edited February 7, 2021 by Unicorn