Compassion and the closet

[swallowU]

>>Perhaps being in the closet has darkened my point of view

>but

>>how would coming out make everyone's life easier? Enlighten

>>me here.

>

>>Am I missing something here?

>

>Yes I think you are. Would not having to live your life as a

>lie not lift a horrible burden off your shoulders?

 

I'm sorry but my life is not a lie nor do I carry a horrible burden on my shoulders. I don't view being a gay man as a horrible burden and my previous post(s) in this thread have indicated that I would never deny being gay if asked. In my professional life, I have not been asked.

 

As Deej has stated, I don't start every meeting, conversation, or email with "I'm the gay one".

 

I happen to like who I am - always have - and always will.

 

swallowu

[swallowU]

I do

>agree with the above posters who said there's strength in

>numbers and that the more people come out, the better it is

>for all of us.

 

And I hope I have been able to convey to you that while not every gay man chooses to live his life as an 'out' individual, we (at least I do) do attempt to make life better for everyone - even if it's from the shadows of the sidelines. We closeted men can be just as helpful.

 

swallowu

[Rick Munroe]

Yes, I got it. (But, btw, just curious here...do you speak up if you hear fag-bash jokes or if someone says "That's so gay"? There's helpful, and then there's helpful. )

[Guest zipperzone]

>I myself am closeted. I have been to the gay district or

>area in Toronto a few times, and really don't feel comfortable

>when I have been there. I did have a few gay friends in

>Southern Ontario, but have none in the town where I am

>presently living, and I am sure there are some in this town,

>but I'm not going out of my way to try to find who they are. I

>doubt that I will ever go out of the closet.

>Would I like to have some gay friends in this area? Sure, but

>I doubt it will happen.

 

If you don't mind my asking - why do you feel you will never come out of the closet? Is it because you are living in a small town and feel you would be endangered? I would find it very lonely if I didn't have a gay support system around me. Straights are all well and good, but you can't really talk to them about you feelings and all that is important to you if you are closeted.

 

I can understand why you may not have felt comfortable in the Toronto's gay district at this time - it is a bit on the concentrated side. But if you were to come out, it is possible that you would in time feel quite comfortable in those surroundings. You don't have to be the Paul Lynde on the street, you could just as easily be the Tom Ford.

 

But the bottom line must be if you're not comfortable with coming out - don't.

[Rick Munroe]

>My thoughts exactly, too!

 

Just to clarify: I was agreeing with the "strength in numbers" concept of Greg's post, not the "grow some balls" part. I really need to stop skimming. :o

[Guest zipperzone]

>I'm sorry but my life is not a lie nor do I carry a horrible

>burden on my shoulders. I don't view being a gay man as a

>horrible burden

 

I never meant to imply that being gay is a horrible burden. I was referring to having to hide your sexuality as the burden.

 

>and my previous post(s) in this thread have

>indicated that I would never deny being gay if asked. In my

>professional life, I have not been asked.

 

OK - I understand that. But if I were in your position - closeted at work - I would feel that I was living a lie of sorts. Let me explain why. For example, on a Monday morning, when the conversation got around to "what did you do over the weekend" I would feel that I had to somewhat fudge my reply. I could never be really forthright and reveal much personal information about myself. In any conversation about that touched on who I was as a person, I would always have to choose the "correct" pronoun. This to me would be living my life as a lie, and, would be a burden.

 

>As Deej has stated, I don't start every meeting, conversation,

>or email with "I'm the gay one".

 

Of course you don't - neither do I - who does?

But I'm curious, if someone told a homophobic joke around you, would you laugh?, pretend you didn't hear it? How would you handle that one?

 

>I happen to like who I am - always have - and always will.

That's good - we should all like who we are.

 

I believe you said something to the effect (these may not be your exact words) that you feel you support gays from the shadows. Could you explain to us how you feel this is accomplished.

 

It is not my intent to be argumentative with you. I'm just interested in your thoughts in this regard.

[swallowU]

>>My thoughts exactly, too!

>

>Just to clarify: I was agreeing with the "strength in numbers"

>concept of Greg's post, not the "grow some balls" part. I

>really need to stop skimming. :o

 

and Rick, if it seemed like most of my comments in this thread were directed at you I apologize to you publicly. If you need to 'stop skimming' then I need to not be as sensitive. The "grow some balls" part really set me off yesterday morning. I promise in the future to read the MC after my first cup of coffee

 

swallowu

[Guest CTguy]

When Larry Craig says "he is not gay" I actually believe him. He sounds like a str8 man that was horny and doesn't mind getting a blow job from another man. I don't think that necessarily makes him "gay", I would think he is bisexual to some degree. Human sexuality is too complex to label people at gay or str8, there are a lot of variations in the middle.

 

Putting his sexual orientation aside, I do find it so hypocritical and ironic :+ that we have another politician that is so anti gay in his voting record getting caught looking for gay sex in a public restroom.

[Damascene]

>When Larry Craig says "he is not gay" I actually believe him.

> He sounds like a str8 man that was horny and doesn't mind

>getting a blow job from another man. I don't think that

>necessarily makes him "gay", I would think he is bisexual to

>some degree. Human sexuality is too complex to label people

>at gay or str8, there are a lot of variations in the middle.

>

 

So he should out as a bisexual or a trysexual? It is not his first time from reading the officer's account of the pick up if true. Maybe he's a Kinsey 2. I think most men are opportunist when the sex when they won't be caught - aka Men are dogs theory.

 

That said Larry Craig had been open about his occasional trysts with men, if all men who did that and more were open, would homosexuality be the lightning rod of opinion?

[Guest PWIT]

>I hope nobody thought the point of my creating this thread was

>to disparage anyone, because it's not something I would ever

>do, and definitely wasn't my intention.

 

I admit I was scratching my head trying to figure out your intent. I am glad you clarified.

[Guest PWIT]

>...just curious here...do you

>speak up if you hear fag-bash jokes or if someone says "That's

>so gay"?

 

Not sure if it was an open question for everyone, but what the hell, I am in a typing mood....

 

I had a new person working for me make a comment that was off color once - it was an overheard conversation and one of the other junior people corrected him. Within the hour he had been notified he had been registered for an EEO course that was deemed mandatory by his supervisor. He got the point, even though I said nothing directly to him. To my knowledge, three years later and there has never been another occurrence of the problem at work. Had it been a seasoned employee, I would probably have done an informal counseling. For a repeated problem I would do a formal counseling (which I have never had to do so far). On the whole, I have only witnessed a very few EEO type situations. I guess it has to do with the professional level of the organization where I work and the work culture where it would not be tolerated.

 

But, I myself often use the "That's so gay" comment, but only with gay friends. I may now rethink that practice.

[Louis]

Coming out of the closet, would probably mean an end to the few things that I do, do with others. One guy at work for what ever reason decided to harras me, though not with regards to my sexuality, he still decided that I would be an easy target for him, because I am pretty laid back, and I don't have what many call an "A" type personality.

I was brought up in a fundamental church, and go to one here. I went to Bible College, after highschool. I don't preach and my only active role at church is playing keyboards and organ. I think that coming out would have a negative impact, though I know a few Christians who feel its fine to be gay, but the person can't be sexually active.

I spend most of the time by myself, when I'm not at work. I do a lot of railway photography, and as of this summer, have kayaked into various places to find new places to take pictures.

I really think that I would be even more isolated from the community if I came out of the closet. I know several hundred people because of my previous job here, and word gets around a town like this, very quickly.

Escorts know I'm gay, and there are a few gay people in Southern Ontario that know I'm gay, and that is it. Escorts are basically friends for pay...so if I want want to spend time with a gay person, I have to pay, which is quite pathetic when a you really think about it.

The Message Center here has been enlightening. I find everyone here very interesting in one way or anther. The message board allows me to be myself.

[Rick Munroe]

>But, I myself often use the "That's so gay" comment, but only

>with gay friends. I may now rethink that practice.

 

In what way do you use it? I mean, in reference to what? Do you use it as a pejorative or a positive?

 

Btw, here's a great couple of essays I found and recently emailed to our teenage niece after she used it at a family gathering this summer:

 

http://www.orgs.muohio.edu/gleam/page11/page15/page15.html

 

I think it's a great link to forward to anyone you might know who uses it but says, "But I'm not homophobic."

[Rick Munroe]

>I admit I was scratching my head trying to figure out your

>intent. I am glad you clarified.

 

Well, after all, it was a post about compassion toward closeted guys, entitled "Compassion and the closet." I can see where you'd be confused with such enigmatic, cryptic title.

[Rick Munroe]

>and Rick, if it seemed like most of my comments in this thread

>were directed at you I apologize to you publicly.

 

Thanks ...but there was no need to apologize. I didn't take offense or take your comments personally. I love when someone stands up for himself and his choices, and doesn't allow himself to be made to feel bad about them. I really respect that.

 

>If you need

>to 'stop skimming' then I need to not be as sensitive. The

>"grow some balls" part really set me off yesterday morning.

 

I think you reacted as anyone would who felt attacked, plus you did it with humor (the shaving balls line). I enjoyed it!

[Guest PWIT]

>>But, I myself often use the "That's so gay" comment, but

>only

>>with gay friends. I may now rethink that practice.

>

>In what way do you use it? I mean, in reference to what? Do

>you use it as a pejorative or a positive?

 

Best I can do is give you most recent uses and let you judge:

-When a friend use the word 'fabulous' three times in one sentence.

-When a friend commented about liking a stripper's leather harness.

[Guest PWIT]

>>I admit I was scratching my head trying to figure out your

>>intent. I am glad you clarified.

>

>Well, after all, it was a post about compassion toward

>closeted guys, entitled "Compassion and the closet." I can

>see where you'd be confused with such enigmatic, cryptic

>title.

 

The title was clear. The referenced article, IMHO, seemed to be lacking in stressing compassion. Seemed judgmental from my POV.

[Rick Munroe]

>Seemed judgmental from my

>POV.

 

You shouldn't be reading while you drive! Besides, those POV's are such gas guzzlers.

[Rick Munroe]

>-When a friend use the word 'fabulous' three times in one

>sentence.

 

That's not gay; that's hip-hop.

 

http://skeules.club.fr/underground_power/administration/boite/image_boite/fabolous%20fron%20nothin%20to%20somethin.jpg

[Guest PWIT]

>>-When a friend use the word 'fabulous' three times in one

>>sentence.

>

>That's not gay; that's hip-hop.

>

 

See...I am so out of touch. :+

[+ deej]

>>-When a friend use the word 'fabulous' three times in one

>>sentence.

>

>That's not gay; that's hip-hop.

>

>http://skeules.club.fr/underground_power/administration/boite/image_boite/fabolous%20fron%20nothin%20to%20somethin.jpg

>

 

Does anyone else notice that the only thing NOT spelled wrong is the parental advisory?

 

I feel very old.

[Lookin]

In my opinion, Louis, anyone who would turn their backs on you would have to be nuts. I think they’d stand a much better chance of getting into Heaven if they took their cues from you, rather than from those who would judge you. It just seems wrong to me that you should be the one hiding your light, rather than those who consider themselves God’s judge and jury. Too bad they’re in control right now, but I believe a good open heart will win in the end.

 

Although I’ve been gay since puberty, I was very much in the closet during my teens and early twenties (1950’s - 1960’s), gradually began to emerge in my mid-twenties, and left it behind in my thirties. But even today, in most situations, my sexuality is important, but not the primary component of my self-identity.

 

If I meet someone new in a social situation, I’m most interested in exchanging views on honesty, compassion, and humor. Once we’ve gone beyond that getting-acquainted period, and decided we enjoy one another’s company, my sexuality will eventually work its way into the conversation. There are people I meet casually who never know if I’m gay or straight, and they don’t tell me about their sexual proclivities either. If someone asks me directly, he’ll get the truth (in some detail, if he shows any interest at all ;-)). It took me a while to get to this stage, but it’s worked very well for many years and I’m happy with it.

 

I know there are others for whom sexuality is a major component of their self-identity. These people will often relate to others primarily on the basis of their sexuality. And I'm sure that most are happy with their approach to forming those personal relationships.

 

I also know people who are firmly in the closet, and keep their sexuality very private. I passed through that phase and have some experience with it. It may be a little harder for these folks to be happy while having to keep looking over their shoulders, but it’s certainly not impossible.

 

So here are three ways of doing the same thing, with happy people in all three camps. There are probably unhappy people in all those camps too. Which leads me to the conclusion that if someone has figured out an approach that makes him happy, and he doesn’t interfere with someone else’s happiness, I should be able to embrace his approach as well as my own. And he should be able to return the favor.

 

As long as he’s not hurting others, I have no desire to tell someone he’s wrong for handling his life the way he does. I respect him and the work he has done, and it’s his business. I look for the same respect in return.

 

Bringing it back to Senator Craig, he falls out of the net for me because he DOES interfere with the happiness of others. He is hell-bent on keeping committed gay couples from enjoying the same rights as straight couples. But he himself would like to enjoy all the pleasures and privileges of a gay man, without returning the favor. He is a hypocrite, which many of us are, but he does it in an aggressive and harmful way. I think he’s a bad role model for whichever side he’s on.

 

He fails the honesty component for me and the compassion component; and, based on his performance in the past few weeks, he fails the humor component as well. I don’t respect him, or his positions, and I doubt that we will become friends.

 

Unless he resigns for good and emails me a naked picture of Officer Hottie.

[Louis]

I definately have issues with people who try to force their beliefs on others. I don't think anyone has the right to prevent people from doing various things, provided they are not hurting others. Sure there is the exception, like stopping a person from driving while drunk, etc. It seems that so many people who speak out against the gay life style, have their own sexual issues, and because of that they have no credibility.

I think a lot of "old school" people have a harder time with sexuality than younger people, but I could be wrong. A lot of people, particularly people on this list have been what I would call pioneers so to speak because they have done tons of great things for the gay community. I respect these people greatly, and I know that some may be dissapointed that I'm in the closet, but maybe if things go right I might go to one of your parties in the future...:-)

[+ purplekow]

Louis, To my mind, as long as you are clear in your own mind of what it is you want out of your life and as long as you are doing your best to make sure you get the best your life has to offer, the rest is window dressing. If you want to raise social consciousness and be active in promoting acceptance then by all means do that. If you are content in getting by day to day, living a life privately and introspectively, then by all means do that. No one knows better than you what it is you need. Just be honest with yourself and move from that starting point. It is when we act from the starting point of fear that damage is done.

So be true to yourself and Be true to your school.

[+ purplekow]

Louis, To my mind, as long as you are clear in your own mind of what it is you want out of your life and as long as you are doing your best to make sure you get the best your life has to offer, the rest is window dressing. If you want to raise social consciousness and be active in promoting acceptance then by all means do that. If you are content in getting by day to day, living a life privately and introspectively, then by all means do that. No one knows better than you what it is you need. Just be honest with yourself and move from that starting point. It is when we act from the starting point of fear that damage is done.

So be true to yourself and Be true to your school.