Steinway: only good for firewood these days?

[Guest]

My mother had a grand Steinway when she passed away. According to the accountant/executor of her will, it's essentially worthless now. Apparently, no one wants a grand piano anymore, so it's not worth the cost of shipping it. Apparently we wouldn't even be able to donate the piano, as not even universities, churches, or music schools would want one. Sad.

"Most households today don’t want a large piano or organ in their home. The demand has dropped. As well, while it is a Steinway, it is an older Steinway, and there are lots of those. Of the three different vendors we had out to look at the piano, two wouldn’t touch it due to the ivory keys as the Dept of Fish and Game can and will fine retailers for selling prohibited products, such as furs, pelts, ivory. Is it illegal to sell a piano with ivory keys. It’s not impossible, but the effort, along with the diminished demand as people don’t want furs, ivory, etc. makes it extremely difficult.

As for donation, the estate tax return cannot get a deduction for it more than the FMV which is limited. Music schools, churches, etc., don’t want them as they already have several and the cost to tune, move, repair etc. is large and most younger piano players use keyboards (my son’s high school, where he took keyboarding [they don’t even call it piano anymore] had 30 electronic keyboards an not one piano). It is a fact that saddens me as well. As well, most schools or donees won't pay for the moving of the piano. "

[samhexum]

My mother had a grand Steinway when she passed away. According to the accountant/executor of her will, it's essentially worthless now.

 

Steinway piano customers claim they were duped into ‘investment’

NY Post February 9, 2019

 

 

Angry buyers of Steinway pianos say they were duped by salespeople who told them the instruments would increase in value, though they actually plunge in price by 50 percent or more as soon as they leave the showroom floor, according to a report Saturday.

 

Owners of the ultra-expensive instruments, which cost between $70,000 and $150,000 when new, said salespeople lied to them about what their pianos’ worth in the future, the Hatch Institute reported Saturday.

 

Customers said they were shown charts of steadily rising prices for new models and were told that buying a Steinway made a better investment than Wall Street stock, the investigative journalism site said.

 

One Steinway brochure, titled “Your Steinway Investment,” claims that “for more than a century and a half, every handmade Steinway has increased in value,” adding that their pianos were “an investment instrument unique in all the world.”

 

But when owners tried to sell, they learned their Steinways were worth tens of thousands less than what they’d paid, even when the pianos were just months old or had never been played, the site reported.

 

One customer never took home the piano she purchased for $78,000 in 2013 after she agreed to accept an inexpensive upright while paying down a layaway loan that pushed the total cost to $100,000.

 

Kelly Kilrea made $68,000 in payments but when she could no longer afford them, she looked into selling the instrument, only to learn that she wouldn’t get more than about $33,000 from a used-piano dealer, which is what still owes Steinway.

 

“I said, `Are you kidding me? How is that possible when it’s supposed to appreciate.’ It was in showroom condition.”

 

The Steinway Gallery in Virginia, where she bought the piano and where it has remained all these years, then repossessed it. Kilrea is trying work out a deal to complete the sale, but she needs to borrow from a third party to pay off the loan.

 

“They use the word investment,” said Ronen Segev, who owns Park Avenue Pianos, which buys and sells used Steinways. “Steinways go up in value. It’s part of the expectation. Then you look at the secondary market and you see what prices are. It really shocks people.”

 

Company spokesman Anthony Gilroy conceded that Steinways “go down in value significantly right off the bat.” He said claims by salespeople that the pianos increase was “a very rare occurrence.”

 

As for the brochure making that statement, he said he “pulled it months ago from the website.” But Hatch found it was still widely in use.

 

Steinway, a central part of Astoria since 1870, when founder William Steinway set up shop there, is one of the few manufacturing plants still in New York. All new Steinways sold in the U.S. are made at the company’s headquarters.

 

The firm, which also once owned a palatial Victorian mansion with turrets and a tower a block away, is now being shopped by its owner, hedge fund billionaire John Paulson, who is asking $1 billion. He bought it for $513 million in 2013.

[+ honcho]

If we are talking about a real grand piano, Models A (6'3"), B(6'10"), C(7'6"), D(9"), I would venture to say *any* of the california state universities, would welcome the addition of another. It is illegal to sell a *new* piano with ivory keys, but it is possible to sell *used* pianos, (manufactered before a certain time), although a pain in the rear to gather the necessary documentation. Violinists face the issue when travleing with their bows which have *miniscule* amounts of ivory in the frogs. But it can be done.

[+ FrankR]

Steinway piano customers claim they were duped into ‘investment’

If it doesn’t generate a cash flow, it isn’t an investment in my book. I know, that is harsh and many here will disagree with me. I’m totally okay with that - the payback period is important to me. ??‍♂️

[mike carey]

If it doesn’t generate a cash flow, it isn’t an investment in my book. I know, that is harsh and many here will disagree with me. I’m totally okay with that - the payback period is important to me. ??‍♂️

I understand your point of view, but to me buying something in the expectation that it will appreciate in value (like company shares) is just as much an investment as buying for cash flow. Of course if you are buying for capital gain, timing is everything. What one invests in is a matter of personal choice.

*Yes, I realise shares often provide an income stream in the form of dividends.

[+ FrankR]

I understand your point of view, but to me buying something in the expectation that it will appreciate in value (like company shares) is just as much an investment as buying for cash flow. Of course if you are buying for capital gain, timing is everything. What one invests in is a matter of personal choice.

*Yes, I realise shares often provide an income stream in the form of dividends.

That is why you are a “prince” and I am a “pauper”! ??

[MiamiLooker]

Is this any different than someone purchasing a house in 2005/2006?

[Rudynate]

If one just looked at the prices for used Steinway pianos, they would easily see that buying a new Steinway is a lousy investment. They depreciate about the way an automobile does. The only good reason to buy a new Steinway is to own one of the worlds finest pianos.

[+ sync]

Interesting about the legal issue around the ivory keys of pianos and the ivory in bows of violins. I don't believe that would have ever occurred to me without someone making mention of it.

[beachboy]

I don't know if the same law applies in the US but in the UK it's illegal to trade in any ivory item that was manufactured after 1947.

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

To buy a German Steinway is to have a beautiful instrument in your home. The people I know who have them bought them because they wanted a lifelong piece like this in their home, much like the OPs mother. They require care and proper tuning. It's an investment, not firewood.

 

There's still a place for these kinds of goods: It's not a brand that's focusing on the Millennial market anyway.

 

While the US market might be shrinking, Steinway has been smart in building up their Asian presence.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/10/business/international/steinways-grand-ambitions-in-china.html

[Rudynate]

To buy a German Steinway is to have a beautiful instrument in your home. The people I know who have them bought them because they wanted a lifelong piece like this in their home, much like the OPs mother. They require care and proper tuning. It's an investment, not firewood.

 

There's still a place for these kinds of goods: It's not a brand that's focusing on the Millennial market anyway.

 

While the US market might be shrinking, Steinway has been smart in building up their Asian presence.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/10/business/international/steinways-grand-ambitions-in-china.html

 

 

Another thing they are doing is partnering with Asian piano manufacturers to produce pianos manufactured to Steinway specifications. Boston pianos are the product line produced by Kawai. I played a Boston piano at the Steinway dealership the last time I was in LA and it was a wonderful piano.

 

Essex pianos are produced by a Korean manufacturer under the same type of arrangement.

 

I dont think they have an arrangement with any Chinese manufacturer.

[cany10011]

My parents have a bosendorfer grand and a heintzmann upright. Growing up, we were an extremely musical family. We used to play Bach double piano concertos and Mozart sonatas for two pianos. My siblings, their spouses, and I are all proficient players. My sister-in-law is a concert pianist. The house is always full of music during the holidays. I think my mom considered the pianos as an investment in her children than the actual monetary investment.

[cany10011]

If one just looked at the prices for used Steinway pianos, they would easily see that buying a new Steinway is a lousy investment. They depreciate about the way an automobile does. The only good reason to buy a new Steinway is to own one of the worlds finest pianos.

 

Actually, would love to get a Fazzioli

[Rudynate]

Actually, would love to get a Fazzioli

 

Fazziolis are very popular right now among the set who can afford to drop 5 - 6 figures for a new grand piano, but some people who know more about pianos than I do sort of sniff when you mention Fazzioli. Don't know if its justified or not.

 

There are just so many great piano manufacturers - Boesendorfer, Pleyel, Bechstein, Yamaha, Kawai. I don't have room in my house for a grand piano, so I content myself with a studio upright. But if I did, I would buy used. You can buy wonderful used grand pianos for a fraction of the cost of a new one. Supposedly, US made Steinways from the early 20th century are outstanding pianos.

[+ friendofsheila]

I tried to look at our profile to see if you (and perhaps your grandmother) were nearby me, but it appears I cannot.

 

It's sad to hear this. I worked at a facility once that had 3 pianos just sitting, nobody using them, ever.

 

And to think that a grand piano sits someplace wanting a home, and destined for a scrap pile if no one will take it, is even sadder. *Sniff*

[+ friendofsheila]

I was at a piano store recently, and saw a piano (not a grand) outside with a "Free - Inquire Within" sign. I wonder if it was because of ivory.

[cany10011]

Actually, would love to get a Fazzioli

I'm happy with my apartment sized upright too. I play occasionally but not with as much frequency as when I was younger and was very serious about it (went to Royal Conservatory). Used to take improvising and jazz lessons with a teacher at julliard when i moved to NYC in the mid 1990s. A cute escort I know, works at one of the famous showrooms in manhattan and is an excellent pianist. Fortunately, i went to medicine and did not pursue music full time.

[KrisParr]

The 1912 Model “M” that I inherited from my grandmother was restored about 10 years ago. Several university music faculty have lusted over it and are begging me to call them should I ever decide to sell it. Fat chance.

[Rudynate]

The 1912 Model “M” that I inherited from my grandmother was restored about 10 years ago. Several university music faculty have lusted over it and are begging me to call them should I ever decide to sell it. Fat chance.

 

From Steinway's Golden Age.

[+ honcho]

The 1912 Model “M” that I inherited from my grandmother was restored about 10 years ago. Several university music faculty have lusted over it and are begging me to call them should I ever decide to sell it. Fat chance.

From Steinway's Golden Age.

 

A friend, who lives in Alameda CA (just across the bay from SF), has a fully restored 1912 model B. He tells of a neighbor lady, a professional singer, who was having her house remodeled a while ago and temporarily couldn't use the piano in her house, so she came over and used his ...

 

Her name is Frederica von Stade.

[Guest]

Alas, when my mother was around, a number of musicians and singers used that piano. Now destined for a fireplace?

[KrisParr]

It was free...but the strings were $25,000...

 

Perhaps it was a mere punctuation oversight: “Free Inquire - Within” meaning the act of inquiring was indeed free?

[LaffingBear]

Kinda surprised by this thread

 

I assumed people buy a grand piano because they want a grand piano. If it appreciates in value, all the better - but thats not the reason to buy it.

 

I have art hanging on my walls. I bought it because I love it. Some pieces have appreciated, others worth nothing.

 

I socialized with a group that was into the signed, numbered lithograph/serigraph frenzy of the 80s. Bought several. Paid thousands for one piece and then 10 years later, walking through an outlet mall, found an outlet store from a well known gallery. And there it was, a matching signed, numbered print... for $125

 

Some of my stuff has appreciated significantly, I only find out when I update appraisals for insurance purposes. Some can be found on ebay or online art dealers for a fraction of what I paid. I still love having them all hanging on my walls.

 

Anything related to arts, investment value is not MY primary objective.

[+ Pensant]

My parents have a bosendorfer grand and a heintzmann upright. Growing up, we were an extremely musical family. We used to play Bach double piano concertos and Mozart sonatas for two pianos. My siblings, their spouses, and I are all proficient players. My sister-in-law is a concert pianist. The house is always full of music during the holidays. I think my mom considered the pianos as an investment in her children than the actual monetary investment.

God, what a civilized family! It seem that most Americans are philistines.