tenderloin

Ugh. The idea that a white man truly understands the experience of people of color is repugnant to anyone who values truth and sincerity.

 

Or that a straight man understands what it's like to be gay.

 

Or that someone mistakes writing about history for either of these.

 

P.S. By story, I meant fiction, not history. And history has to be honest, unlike, say, some Civil War history that aims at justifying the South.

So in your twisted world, the only people who can write fiction containing characters of a specific race/ethnicity/religion/sexuality are people of that same race/ethnicity/religion/sexuality? How does a male writer include female characters? What about Kazuo Ishiguro, author of "Remains of the Day" among many others, and winner of countless prizes? How dare a Japanese person dare to write about early 20th century Britain? Say goodbye to most of the world's great literature. The examples are countless. Your assertion is laughable and ridiculous.

I would have to wonder what the purpose was of writing such a narrative that 'needs' to include words that are now offensive. I agree that it would be clumsy and inauthentic to substitute another word in a simple 'replace all' mode. But it is not necessary to write in a way that there is a perceived need to use that word and one should be able to navigate around it. Using indirect speech rather than direct is one device for doing so.

When one writes about the past, presumably one is trying to create as accurate a picture of the time and place as possible. Sanitizing the past to avoid hurting feelings today is, I would argue, more harmful to anyone than the use of words (however distasteful) in the proper context.

Look at it this way: if I wrote a story about the Stonewall riots, I would not have the cops refer to the patrons as "members of the LGBTQ community" - the cops called us faggots and dykes and cocksuckers and.... Whether or not we like it, that is part of our shared history, and should not be forgotten, erased, or sanitized.

You can report slurs without using them or use them, but it wouldn't be a book appropriate for school below college level. Also what is the story and what is the goal of the book? Gone With the Wind may not include racial slurs, but it accepts slavery as a given, romanticizes the South, and has the reader rooting against the Union army because it's written from the point of view of white plantation owners.

 

If, as I suspect, you are white, you may not be the right person to write such a story anyway, especially if it focuses on black pain. That's considered by blacks to be whites exploiting and monetizing their pain. That's also true of other forms of appropriation. British soldiers in Caribbean colonies had orders to shoot men wearing dreadlocks on sight, so a white guy rocking dreadlocks causes a lot of anger because what for them is a symbol of defiance becomes another white hairdo disconnected from its past.

I may not be the right person to write such a story? Oy. For the record, I am an author and historian. The idea that one must be the right race/gender/whatever to write anything is repugnant to anyone who truly values freedom of expression.

The problem is the idea that only certain kinds of books count. Graphic novels, manga, comics and car magazines count, too. Reading is reading.

 

If kids want to read Wilder and their parents are okay with it, that's fine. It'd be nice if they discussed the issues, but I'm not holding my breath.

You still haven't answered my question, and I am genuinely curious as to your answer (and I am not saying that to be combative - I am curious): if I were to write a book and set it in the south pretty much anytime before 1900, what term should I put into the mouths of southern whites when referring to their African American neighbors? If I want my dialogue to be believable and realistic, what should I do?

I disagree with your analysis, but your suggestion is a good one.

 

Instead of clinging to outdated books calling Black people darkies and repeating the only good Indian is a dead Indian, let's have schools teach books like Octavia Butler's Kindred, in which a Black woman and her white husband are sent back in time to before the Civil War where she repeatedly rescues the white slaveowner's son who is her ancestor.

So if I want to write a novel set in the antebellum south, how do you think I should have the plantation owner refer to the enslaved persons in his custody? "My dear employees?" "My beloved African-American colleagues?" Shall we pretend that people didn't use awful terms to refer to people of other races, ethnicities, religions, etc.? Will that really enlighten the readers? Will that really give them a realistic perspective on life in America in the mid-nineteenth century?

It's been said but merits repeating: there is no writer, politician, religious leader or other notable without blemishes. Once the cleansing starts, where does it stop?

I am going to go rooting through Octavia's works - I am sure there is something controversial in there.....

No one is calling for Little House to be banned. And the issue is the name of an award meant to reward inclusiveness in children's literature.

 

How would you like it if as a gay man you were nominated for an award named after noted homophobe and author Orson Scott Card?

If we start scrubbing from history everyone whose statements or writings are not aligned with current-day thinking, there aren't going to be many people left.

so let's pretend that no one in the 1800's used the N word. yeah, that will make it better and give kids an accurate picture of culture back then....

The point of respect is out of question. 100% agree on @Drained Empty 's post.

 

But I do have a problem with "we cannot choose our preferences". It is true, we cannot but I think we need to explain the concept a little bit more because often it is used as an excuse to avoid taking a look at our own prejudices.

 

Our preferences are not totally under our control, but they change (at least mine have and I am not special) according to other variables in our personalities and ideas. For instance, I grew up when I was a young teen believing that I was only attracted to men, and the single possibility of a woman heading on me would make me run on panic. That was before I embraced my homosexuality. Once I freed my desire for men, I found out I do feel attraction for some women. Another example: when I was younger and the work on my homophobia and self hatred was just starting, I would feel attraction only for very twinkish, White, clean and cut, and feminine guys. Hell that has changed.

 

And the changing of my sexual preferences is still going on, and I expect to be open to new discoverings and to surprise myself. I am 100% top. I have experimented with bottoming in my 20s and never liked it. I do not even fantasize with bottoming, but I do think, considering that physiologically the rim and the prostate are full of erogenous centers, that there is no reason other than a psychological barrier for my handicapped pleasure. I cannot choose to become a bottom, but I can work on it and perhaps one day I will be ready to let my ass go.

 

So my point is that I agree, we cannot choose our sexual preferences, but we can choose to live up to an attitude of self reflexion and personal growing to expand our chances of happiness and pleasure. Our sexualities are not a given, but an always going on social/psychological construction.

Do tastes and preferences and kinks and our level of adventurousness (is that even a word?) evolve over time? For most of us, probably. But the point of the original post is that no one should be labeled racist (or other-ist) because they find that certain characteristics shared by people of a certain race, ethnicity, size, age, gender, etc. not to be sexually attractive. We can and should treat all people with respect and kindness, and should not discriminate against them in employment, housing, education, etc. but that doesn't mean we have to sleep with them and like it LOL.

To give an obvious example, I happen to be of Scandinavian heritage. I have never ever been attracted to guys from Scandinavia. I don't understand why, and I certainly don't discriminate against them in my daily life, but I just don't want to fuck them. And you know what? That's ok. Fin.

I'm going to cautiously enter this thread because I've been race-hated on this board.

 

Racism is undoubtedly present in the gay community. From the blatant "no Asians" to bars or spas clearing out when I enter, I've experienced it my entire adult life. Attraction may by governed physiologically (just how gay men aren't sexually attracted to women) or influenced by society and media (Asian men are regularly emasculated on screen). It may be a bit of both. But from my experience, Asians are treated worse in the gay community than any other race (except perhaps South Asians).

 

The issue comes with how guys express their attraction (or lack of). I'm not sexually attracted to older men, but frequently get attention from them (another topic for another day). If they reach out to me, I reply, "thank you, but it's not a 100% match. Good luck." I don't say "you're too old." I don't block them. Some guys get hostile but most of the time they say "thanks" or "no problem." Respect earns respect.

 

The problem is many white guys (who are considered by most as the most desirable) lack that respect. I stopped complimenting white guys on Grindr because I'd get auto blocked. For saying things like "you have a great smile." Yes, I know there are my Asian brothers that shamelessly hurl themselves at any white guy, but when the level of lack of respect for another race results in an automatic block or a hand to the face (yes, one guy once put his hand in my face after I said he was good-looking), that comes from thinking you're better than they are. And that is definitely racism.

 

The saddest part is so many Asians have internalized it. I'm in SF for the month and can't tell you how many Asian guys exclude their race from their profiles. Why? Because they know a lot of guys check the boxes for other races than Asian. They want to be the exception. Sometimes they are (the tall, muscular Asians with square jaws -- ironically, the desirable Asians look more "white"). Sometimes they're not. This is true of Asian guys with ripped bodies and use shirtless pics. A white guy will find the body hot but when they learn it belongs to an Asian they change their minds. What changed? Maybe the face. Or maybe the race.

 

This recent video puts it best. An asian model (who is straight, but it affects all Asians) says, "I didn't want to be white. I just want to be treated like I was white." What he's really saying is that he wants to be treated with respect.

 

 

So whether it's "preference" or you're racist (because let's face it, some of you are), try treating everyone with respect. Because we're all part of the human race.

Thank you for putting that so well. We cannot choose our preferences and what gets us hot or not, but we can choose to treat people with respect and dignity.

The take on MLK and gays seems to be mixed

 

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/16/what-did-mlk-think-about-gay-people/

Agreed. My point is that we can take MLK's words out of context and make him look like a bigot. Fetch me the tar and feathers....

Banning literature because we are more sensitive and use more "enlightened" words today is a profoundly stupid thing to do. By reading such works, uncensored, we learn more about the times in which they were written (and the people who wrote them). It is particularly shameful that this act is being perpetrated by the Library Association.

We should remember that Martin Luther King, amazing guy that he was, was also homophobic. When do we start to scrub him out of history (sarcasm intended)?

Even if that is

 

 

 

Even if that is true, do you reflexively go around answering whatever is asked of you. I repeat, "Who said you had to?"

And I could ask the same of you. You seem like a bully.

Who said you had to?

The ask was implicit in the statement, and you know that. Not sure what the point of your snarky comment was, but this is supposed to be an exchange. I was sharing my point of view. Do you mind?

I can be as hyperbolic as you:

 

The fact you don’t see your inherent racism as a product of your environment is mind boggling to me. That gay men have had to deal with all these “crosses” astounds me that they don’t recognize similar patterns in themselves or have empathy for those that suffer similar discrimination. No one said you can’t have a preference but to categorically dismiss one whole group because of their race without looking at the merits of that person?

 

Anyways I’ve NEVER seen anyone change their mind because of this type of discussion on any online message board, least of all this one, so there’s no point discussing it IMO

So now I am being labeled a racist without ever having indicated what my preferences might be or might not be. LOL.

Let me make this clear for all of the self-loathing, uncertain gay men reading:

1. If you deny a job, housing, promotion, or other socio/economic opportunity to a person based on their race, ethnicity, color, gender, or other human classification, you are a racist and an asshole.

2. If you are sexually-attracted to another person based on one of the characteristics above, or dick size, shape of nose, alignment of teeth, amount of hair, curve of foot, etc. you are a human being. Don't let the dickheads in this forum make you feel guilty about your sexuality. Enough other people are doing that.

Yes, you do choose your attractions. You are a product of the environment in which you were raised. Does that make you racist because you categorically dismiss one ethnic group? Yes. Should you feel guilty about it? Up to you.

The idea that one chooses sexual attractions is the most stupid thing I have read on this board, and there have been quite a few rivals for that title. There are any number of human characteristics that turn some people on and others off. Some of them we lump into made-up categories like race. Just because you don't want to sleep with someone doesn't mean that we don't believe that person is entitled to all human and civil rights. I don't want to screw women, but I consider myself a feminist.

People have been studying and trying to understand attraction for centuries, and they still don't know what makes us tick. But gay men have enough crosses to bear - the last thing we need is the "righteous" telling us that, in addition to our other sins, we are now "racist" or some other "-ist" because we don't find this or that characteristic attractive enough to get us erect.

To me, when someone says, categorically, "I'm just not attracted to . . ." a particular ethnicity, that sounds to me more like a decision than a preference.

So you think you choose your attractions? Maybe you do, but I certainly never have. It makes absolutely no sense to me, when I think about the variety of shapes and sizes that attract me (and those that don't), but I certainly never made a conscious choice as to what gets my pecker hard. Life would have been easier if I could have LOL.

There is an implication in your statement that if I am not attracted to one ethnic group or the other that its one more thing I'm supposed to feel guilty about. Sorry, not buying.

PM if interested

I had a guy from A4A at my apartment. He was unsatisfactory, failing to do what was promised, but was insisting on a tip as we were dressing. I said no and explained why not. He then asked me to get him a glass of water. While I was out of the room, he took something of value off of a dresser - he would probably get $150 at a pawn shop for it - I didn't realize until he was gone. Lesson learned....

Not sure how to interpret his explanation regarding the pics in his post above, but the fact remains that he was using at least some pics that dated from the time I saw him in Vancouver in March of 2004. Again, he may still be very hot and sexy, but the fact is that we all age -- our body changes over that period of time -- and I think it incumbent upon any pro to keep his pics current. 2, 3, even 5 years old maybe, but 14? You want to "keep oldish pics just to create continuity in my visual identity" label them as such.

OK, 'nuff said - move on.

Have a nice day, Mocha

You’re right, you are calling an escort and not an ambulance. So asking “how quickly can you get to XYZ address” sounds like you’re having an emergency. You’re not. You’re just putting your needs over the other person, just because you think your “little cash” has priority (your words, not mine)..

And just to be clear, I am not "putting my needs over" anyone. I am making a business proposition to another adult, a proposition which he is completely free to decline.

You’re right, you are calling an escort and not an ambulance. So asking “how quickly can you get to XYZ address” sounds like you’re having an emergency. You’re not. You’re just putting your needs over the other person, just because you think your “little cash” has priority (your words, not mine).

 

Also it’s not “making a choice” to forgo revenue. It’s already doing something other than vegetating by the line, being unproductive and waiting on someone to schedule. Which is often unpredictable.....

You should see a career counselor. I think you are in the wrong line of work.

Well I hope you add the escort’s speeding ticket and/or attorney fees to the rate you’re paying. They might hit a pedestrian or a car with a pregnant woman while trying to “get to you quickly as they can”. .

LOL Good Lord, I am calling an escort not an ambulance.

Look, it's simple. You make a choice to forgo revenue when you decide to go to the gym or garden instead of taking a last-minute client, and that is fine -- it's your prerogative. I just don't understand why this becomes a source of complaints from escorts. You don't want last minute appointments? Fine. Just say "no thanks. " There are others who may very well welcome the opportunity to earn a little cash.

There are legitimate circumstances which could cause a potential client to have last minute needs. For example, I might be on a business trip and have a dinner get cancelled at the last minute. Suddenly I am in my hotel room with free time. The mind wanders.... However, in those circumstances I will make sure not to call YOU.

I have been in the position, at least half a dozen times, when an escort flaked on me last minute, usually mid-to-late evening when I had arranged to host and was "enthusiastic" about the prospect. So what's a horny guy to do? I would look to an escort site, and if the guy's ad indicated "available" I would ask "how quickly can you get to XYZ address?"

For those of you insulted that I am asking you last-minute, my apologies. As that great doyenne of taste and etiquette Nancy Reagan famously advised, "just say no."