Do you agree with this advice?

[+ WilliamM]

It's a little ridiculous to be criticizing someone else's life and words when you haven't, and aren't interested in, walking in her shoes.

 

If Barbara Bush had not dropped out of Smith after one year to marry George H. W. Bush, she may have been more aware of the world and history.

 

I understand it was wartime, and it seemed the right decision then.

[+ WilliamM]

I agree with this.....

 

I doubt that many people disagree with a balance in life, but remember Mrs. Bush was speaking to a graduating college class. It was something you tell students. Who knows if she really believed it?

[Rudynate]

I doubt that many people disagree with a balance in life, but remember Mrs. Bush was speaking to a graduating college class. It was something you tell students. Who knows if she really believed it?

 

That was in 1990. By then, the feminist movement had matured and recognized that feminism was about women choosing and that choosing to be a housewife/stay-at-home mom was a valid choice. So she wasn't advocating anything radical that hadn't already been thought of.

[+ WilliamM]

That was in 1990. By then, the feminist movement had matured and recognized that feminism was about women choosing and that choosing to be a housewife/stay-at-home mom was a valid choice. So she wasn't advocating anything radical that hadn't already been thought of.

 

George and Barbara Bush decided to marry at a young age because of the Second World War. A personal choice.

[+ WilliamM]

As lovely as that statement is let's remember she was born to a prosperous family and marry into another one. She was also born W.A.S.P. in 1925 that alone would be a good start in life unlike those ethnic Italians, Irish, Polish, Jews, etc. Is very easy to make that statement if you never have to worry about money nor suffer segregation or negative stereotypes from birth that no matter how you behave in your life you just can't get away from them.

 

One more thing she lived through the depression as a child, I don't know how her family did during that time but some families with money went bankrupt during those days.

 

I completely agree about your first paragraph.

[+ quoththeraven]

If Barbara Bush had not dropped out of Smith after one year to marry George H. W. Bush, she may have been more aware of the world and history.

 

I understand it was wartime, and it seemed the right decision then.

I was also referring to her choice to have a family and be a stay-at-home parent. Sure, economic privilege feeds in, but plenty of working-class and middle-class families without nannies, etc. cobble together childcare arrangements with family and friends in order to work part-time or get respite, and from what I know Barbara did the child-rearing herself. She was at the side of her only daughter Robin who was hospitalized and died of leukemia at a young age.

 

While gay men aren't foreclosed from having families, it's more effort and many don't bother or aren't interested, including, based on responses to a thread posted by @FreshFluff, a number of forum members. (Responses could be skewed, but the vast majority evinced no interest in having or adopting children.) That's what I meant by not walking in her shoes. If one isn't interested in having a family, an exhortation to make time for family is irrelevant.

[marylander1940]

She's a complicated person, like most of us are. I appreciated her gumption and didn't appreciate her cluelessness. Stacked up against her insensitivity about Katrina is her personal kindness to and interest in the domestic staff at the White House. She came from a class and era that believed rich people had a duty to give back to the wider community, that while they earned or were entitled to their privilege, they also had a responsibility to make the world a better place. With a few exceptions, like Warren Buffett and Bill and Malinda Gates, that's pretty much gone.

 

But all this talk of accomplishments and what not are giving me hives. I actually agree with her and with those who interpret her words as advocating balance, where work doesn't preempt family time or seeing one's children grow up and attending their games or plays. And the denigration of relationships over career and personal accomplishments comes across as a lowkey dig against women, against whom the deck is stacked at work and if they are mothers are encouraged to put family first and act as unpaid child care worker, chauffeur, coach, etc.

 

It's a little ridiculous to be criticizing someone else's life and words when you haven't, and aren't interested in, walking in her shoes.

 

Specially if they're called something that rimes with rich because they're bossy, complain about harassment of being treated in a condescending way by male coworkers.

[Rudynate]

I was also referring to her choice to have a family and be a stay-at-home parent. Sure, economic privilege feeds in, but plenty of working-class and middle-class families without nannies, etc. cobble together childcare arrangements with family and friends in order to work part-time or get respite, and from what I know Barbara did the child-rearing herself. She was at the side of her only daughter Robin who was hospitalized and died of leukemia at a young age.

 

While gay men aren't foreclosed from having families, it's more effort and many don't bother or aren't interested, including, based on responses to a thread posted by @FreshFluff, a number of forum members. (Responses could be skewed, but the vast majority evinced no interest in having or adopting children.) That's what I meant by not walking in her shoes. If one isn't interested in having a family, an exhortation to make time for family is irrelevant.

 

That's the thing. Most gay men choose not to have children. And that comes with a price. Not having a family definitely has a price. But most come to terms with the price paid fairly easily when they realize the immense personal freedom that comes with being a childless gay man.

[marylander1940]

That was in 1990. By then, the feminist movement had matured and recognized that feminism was about women choosing and that choosing to be a housewife/stay-at-home mom was a valid choice. So she wasn't advocating anything radical that hadn't already been thought of.

 

Good point, let's see this movie and its remake as examples:

 

 

In 1975 this movie was seen as men trying to go back in time to the 50's and keep their wives at home.

 

 

 

Later on the remake was about some women who unhappy with their successful lives (some of them) prefer to go back to being housewives.

[+ WilliamM]

That's what I meant by not walking in her shoes. If one isn't interested in having a family, an exhortation to make time for family is irrelevant.

 

"Family" does not mean just children. It also includes aunts, uncles, grandparents, siblings, first cousins (in no particular order). Few of my parents' many siblings could afford as many children as George and Barbara Bush.

[Rudynate]

George and Barbara Bush decided to marry at a young age because of the Second World War. A personal choice.

 

Well, yes, in the abstract it was a personal choice, but, in fact, at that time, not marrying was almost not an option.

 

When I was in grade school, probably 80% of the teachers were unmarried women in late middle age - "old maids" they were called. They seemed to live nice lives. In spite of their teacher's salaries, they all drove nice cars. They hung out with each other and traveled all summer long. But I think of the things my mother used to say about them. Of course, to their faces she was never anything but polite and respectful, but she used to say that they were defective, or abnormal because they weren't married and didn't have children. And I suspect her attitude wasn't uncommon. They were outcasts - serving a worthy function as teachers, but otherwise dismissed.

 

Unmarried men were known as "confirmed bachelors" and were also highly suspect.

[+ WilliamM]

My third grade teacher was an "old maid," but she was also an excellent teacher. Just before we moved from a relatively small New England town, I learned she had become vice principal of a large elementary school. Well earned. I was so happy for her.

[marylander1940]

"Family" does not mean just children. It also includes aunts, uncles, grandparents, siblings, first cousins (in no particular order). Few of my parents' many siblings could afford as many children as George and Barbara Bush.

 

Maybe that's why Prescott Bush was such an advocate for planned parenthood. I don't know if he later on was pro-life or pro-choice.

[Guest]

I ... didn't appreciate her cluelessness. Stacked up against her insensitivity about Katrina is her personal kindness to and interest in the domestic staff at the White House. She came from a class and era that believed rich people had a duty to give back to the wider community, that while they earned or were entitled to their privilege, they also had a responsibility to make the world a better place. With a few exceptions, like Warren Buffett and Bill and Malinda Gates, that's pretty much gone.

 

....And the denigration of relationships over career and personal accomplishments comes across as a lowkey dig against women, against whom the deck is stacked at work and if they are mothers are encouraged to put family first and act as unpaid child care worker, chauffeur, coach, etc.

 

It's a little ridiculous to be criticizing someone else's life and words when you haven't, and aren't interested in, walking in her shoes.

 

I wasn't criticizing her life (as I said, a part of me is jealous of her life), although yes, I was questioning the wisdom of her words, particularly as they apply to college graduates of today (of both genders). You criticize her words yourself, then label my critique of her words as "ridiculous," apparently without feeling any sense of hypocrisy. Your splitting of male versus female roles also seems out of date today. Both men and women take large chunks of time out for parental leave (I've had some male colleagues take months off at a time)--such is the scourge of heterosexuality! I guess someone has to make the gay men! You're not even safe hiring gay men and women any more, although we used to be counted on to pick up the slack when the heterosexuals take off for family matters!

Off topic, but there are quite a few rich people these days who donate generously to charity and the community...

https://www.cnbc.com/2015/05/15/king-ken-recovered-citadel-chief-takes-the-hedge-fund-throne.html

Ken Griffin's charitable donations have totaled nearly $500 million to organizations and initiatives focused on education, medical innovation and access to local cultural institutions, according to Citadel's Spring. Griffin and Dias recently dissolved their joint charitable foundation and activities were transferred to one in Griffin's name only.

 

Griffin has not signed the Giving Pledge, the effort started by Warren Buffett and Bill Gates to get commitments from the ultra-wealthy to give away a majority of their assets. About a dozen people who have signed hail from the hedge fund community, including Dalio, Bill Ackman, John Arnold and Lee Cooperman.

[+ quoththeraven]

That's the thing. Most gay men choose not to have children. And that comes with a price. Not having a family definitely has a price. But most come to terms with the price paid fairly easily when they realize the immense personal freedom that comes with being a childless gay man.

That freedom includes not having to balance family and work obligations in the same manner. Sure, gay men have other family - parents, aunts and the like - but they generally require less time and less intensive time. Caring for ill and elderly relatives is an exception, but that still has more choice baked into it than parenting, which has certain minimum expectations that are subject to government enforcement.

[Rudynate]

My third grade teacher was an "old maid," but she was also an excellent teacher. Just before we moved from a relatively small New England town, I learned she had become vice principal of a large elementary school. Well earned. I was so happy for her.

 

The old maids usually were outstanding teachers. I had old maid teachers in 4th 5th and 6th grade and I thrived.