Patience, Kindness and Respect

[Boston Guy]

I've been forced by health and family issues to take a break from the Message Center for the last few weeks. I come back and find something that seems a bit like a revolt, a bit like pandemonium, a bit like panic and a whole lot like a bitchfest.

 

Hooboy had a vision that was pretty cool. Part of his vision involved gay men helping each other, sharing knowledge and experience, reaching out to each other across the Internet in a way that had previously been difficult. This Message Center became an integral part of his vision.

 

People came here and shared their knowledge, about escorts but also about many other things. They shared their experiences with escorts but also their experiences with life. Hopes and fears, joys, family crises, trips to places mundane and exotic all became part of the mix. Some of the people who came here died, some unexpectedly. But still the MC went on.

 

The review site may have assited more people in hiring escorts, but I think this Message Center had far more lasting effect on the lives of many people. Some have posted here over the years to that very effect, attesting to this site as one of the only lifelines they had to the gay community.

 

Some men have come here to come out and have found friendship and guidance freely offered; others have come and found true friends. Men from around the world, literally, have come to join in Hooboy's vision. And while there have been occasional bitchfests before, even serious ones, the common thread that has made this all possible -- beside the guiding hand of Hooboy, which we've lost forever -- was respect. Respect for one another, respect for each other's goals, respect for the very many differences we all brought here. We've come as young men and old and in between; we've come as Americans, Canadians, Europeans, Asians, Australians. We've come as people of great experience and men living isolated lives in small communities. We've come as teachers, of a sort, and students. We've come as escorts and as clients and as men who simply found this an interesting place to hang out. But still we brought respect.

 

And now, I come back and find anything but respect.

 

A small cadre of posters, including men who should know better, have brought a complete lack of respect for others to thread after thread. Threads appear to be hijacked over and over again for no reason whatsoever other than to satisfy their own adolescent need to bitch at each other. They spare no opportunity to criticize their favorite targets, with no respect for each other and no respect for the other people who come here. Their favorite response is "if you don't like it, don't read it."

 

Well, I don't like it. And I don't like what their petty bickering is doing to this place that I care about, this place that has been very important to many people. I find their complete lack of respect for M4M, for Hooboy's vision, and for the others who come here to be so reeking of self-indulgence as to be insufferable.

 

Some long-term posters who have had reasonable careers here have joined the fray, often in the name of some high-sounding search for principle, often in the name of free speech. Others simply refuse to let an argument die, insisting instead on making post after post after post, each ccntaining yet another iterantion of the same tired arguments they rehashed in other threads. They carry their dislike for each other and their memory of prior posts from thread to thread, not caring whose rights and whose arguments they are trampling.

 

Doug69, BofN and Woodlawn are three I respect; I've posted that here any number of time before. But all three have been guilty of taking part in this bitchfest and helping to continue it and, at times, leading the fray. Doug, especially, should and does know better but is one of the most egregiously guilty, in my opinion, based on a fairly lengthy read of the posts of the last month.

 

The assaults on each other are endless and simply shouldn't be tolerated. If I were a moderator -- a thankless job I have never wanted, even though HB offered it to me twice -- I would have stepped in long ago to stop some of this crap, for crap it is.

 

M4M is a valuable resource that serves many people, the large majority of whom never post. The few who are making it unfriendly and unwelcoming post here as a privilege, not a right. They quite simply do not have the right to destroy this place purely so they can indulge their own puerile need to attack one another. If I had the power, I would have suspended their posting rights long before this. As Spock said, "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few."

 

And, speaking of the moderators, I see errors on both sides. Deej seems to have been a little heavy-handed and quick with a hard retort recently. But so what? Does everyone here forget that this place exists ONLY BECAUSE THE MODERATORS GIVE OF THEIR OWN TIME, freely, so this place can operate so well? When it did become fair to simply sling mud at the moderators -- or at each other? Reading the stuff that's been posted about Deej was infuriating at times. No wonder he's seemed to be short of patience at times; in his place, I would have quit. I know that some of you feel you could do a better job as moderator; quite frankly, of the list of moderators I saw proposed, most of you have demonstrated precious little of the kind of patience and moderation needed to fulfill the role of moderator in a fair manner. I, for one, salute Deej, here and now, for what's he's done for M4M for a long time and for his patience in responding to the crap that's been slung his way over the last month. Those of you doing the slinging need to either grow up or, if you feel grown up, feel a bit of shame at your actions.

 

Poor Trilingual, who does appear to have erred in some of his actions as a moderator, has contributed so very much to M4M that he should have been given great latitude, not just by Daddy and his fellow moderators but also by everyone here. People make mistakes and Tri seems to have made a few. But he also grew the whole knowldge base here about Rio and almost single-handedly developed the information that has led so many to have so much fun in Rio. Or does no one remember or care about what he has done for M4M -- for us? Is it more important to get one's jollies by taking Tri down? Where the hell is this community's gratitude?

 

And then there are rules changes which I think have led to this situation, at least in part. As long as he has been involved in M4M, at least to my recollection, Daddy has posted remarks about being a stern disciplinarian. And the rules changes that he implemented after HB's death seem to have some of that flavor to them. Two, in particular, strike me as being in error:

 

(a) The rule about no reviews in the Message Center. There are those of us who won't post reviews and don't trust the review process but who have been willing at times to share personal information about escorts in the MC. When the poster was a trusted member of the MC, that information could be very valuable and has now been lost;

 

(b) The rule about no trolling. It may be based in good intentions but it's way too vague and too much of the "I know it when I see it" kind of rule. I've spent years and years on the Internet and I can't come up with a good, consistent definition of trolling that everyone would agree with. For more sensible, to my mind, would simply be a rule that says posters must respect their fellow posters. Posts that don't comply with that will be clear to everyone.

 

Good message boards do not come of heavy hands, in my opinion. Instead, they come from solid communities of people who share interests and want to share their thoughts and experiences with each other. Heavy-handed moderation makes little fights into big ones. Deleting posts and threads turns some reasonable posters into little boys with fire in their eyes.

 

The simple solution, in my mind, is to state clearly that people who abuse the Message Center or their fellow posters will be suspended for 30 days. No exceptions. After a while, peace will prevail. And within that peace there is room for an almost endless amount of free expression. Opinions can be offered on almost any subject, strongly if the poster wants, so long as the opinion is offered in a way this is still respectful of other posters. In other words, an adult conversation.

 

Would there be posters who don't like that kind of conversation?

 

Perhaps. Even probably. But I'd far rather have a Message Center that actually exists, a place were guys can come to discuss thoughts about escorts and escorting, life, travels, and whatever else they want, than one that either closes down or is run a bit like an asylum where the inmates have taken over.

 

Sorry, guys, but those of you who are guilty know exactly who you are. Perhaps you feel that you've been clever or witty or perhaps you feel that you've been engaging in some kind of valiant battle. Perhaps you even believe that others would admire what you have written in your slugfests.

 

Sorry, I hate to disillusion you. You've all lost sight of what this place is all about. You lost sight of its mission and its audience. You're acting like spoiled children who think this is your own personal sandbox. In fact, you're acting a lot like you're the ones paying the bills.

 

I hate to disillusion you but you're not being witty or erudite; you're not fighting some great battle over principle; you're not amusing the rest of us. Intead, you're wreaking havoc in a resource that is important to other people, with no concern for others, and you're doing it in a way that is immensely boring.

 

For Christ's sake? Post after post after post about BN??? Who the hell cares who likes him and who doesn't? Those of you who posted over and over and over in those threads said everything you had to say in your first post or two. Every single post after the first few was a meaningless rehash that said nothing and was aimed at nothing other than making other people who come here feel bad.

 

And, yes, Doug, if you think I'm partially talking to you, you're right. You're bright, interesting and know a lot of things about a lot of subjects. You've brought great content to this place, much of which I have disagreed with at times, but always respected. Now you're slinging the mud with the others with the sole goal of making at least some other people here feel bad. Perhaps you need to take some time away from M4M. If you do, perhaps you'll come back with a clearer head and a little more respect for all of the other people who come here. I certainly have not seen any of that from any of your posts that Ive read from the last month. And don't give me that tired line about not reading it what I don't want to see. That's a load of crap. The kinds of posts I'm talking about everyone is familiar with. There's simply no room here for the kind of bitchy threads that seem to be popping up everyplace here. At one point, I was reading thread after thread and finding one after another hijacked by the same small group of people arguing the same tired arguments over and over. There's simply no room here for that crap. Sorry, I don't care if you disagree.

 

So, what do I think needs to be done?

 

1. The rules should be amended to at least remove the rule about trolling and replace it with a clearer rule that calls for respect among posters.

 

2. Everyone should step back, take a deep breath, and really give a little thought to how valuable M4M has been to so many people for what is now quite a long time. It's an important place and it deserves to live. There are guys out there who really depend on M4M. Patience, kindness and respect are needed here in much greater proportion than has been on display recently.

 

3. The moderators should be a bit more moderate, in some ways. I'm on record here many times about not moving threads between forums (an artificial distinction I don't support). I don't like threads being deleted and I don't like posts being randomly updated by moderators. In cases where an action is needed, I've called before for an explanatory remark to be left explaining why the action was called for. In return, we all need to recognize that this place we take for granted really exists on the back of the moderators. I greatly appreciate the work they do on our behalf and think everyone here needs to appreciate what they do. If you like coming to M4M, remember that it's the moderators who have made that possible. It's easy to dislike this action or that action on moderated boards but it's more important to keep the big picture in mind. Bitchy attacks on the moderators should cease.

 

4. Without knowing any of the facts, I think Trilingual should be welcomed back with open arms -- by everyone. He's contributed immense things to M4M. Perhaps his actions as moderator were extreme and perhaps he did take things too much to heart and his responsibilities too seriously. He wouldn't be the first moderator at this board or others to get carried away. But his contributions here have been so large that he should be welcomed back, at least as a contributing member, and with thanks from all of us for the time and enery he has put into building M4M.

 

5. I think Daddy should start suspending members who start threads or make posts whose sole goal is to insult other members. That's the one thing I don't think should be allowed. It's easy to have a vigorous, strenuous argument with someone without insulting them or others. Ad hominem attacks (for those of you who don't know what that means, look it up) should simply not be allowed. If people don't know how to attack an argument without attacking the person making the argument, well, it's probably time to learn.

 

6. Finally, I think we all should recognize once again how much HB meant to this place. His absence has been felt and his guiding hand that guided so gently has been missed. The hand that has replaced it will find its way and if it's been a bit heavy-handed recently, well, that's called experience. For those of us who are care about M4M, who want M4M to continue to exist and to be a good resource for posters and lurkers alike, we need to understand that we are all part of the solution. For those of the rest of you who don't care about this place and see it simply as a place to come and bitch and engage in yet another endless tit-for-tat juvenile cat fight, well, take it some place else where you're welcome.

 

BG

[BewareofNick]

Boston Guy, you said a lot.

 

Yup, I've been guilty of bad behavior, you're right.

 

I also know that a certain someone is spinning out of control and taking the MC down with him. I've tried to point that out and apparently been banned because of it by that very same person.

 

Could I have handled it differently? Perhaps.

 

I'm willing to tone it down, but when left to the whim of an out of control moderator, what other choice do I have?

[BuckyXTC]

Boston Guy:

 

I'm very glad you addressed these issues with such detail and clarity. I think your suggestions are quite reasonable and maybe even necessary if this place has a chance to regain some semblance of being worth the effort to visit. As of late, I've found i to be a total bore. While I plead guilty to being involved in bitchfests from time to time, I've intentionally steered clear of the recent nastiness. I miss the days when we used to have substantive discussions of issues and could passionately disagree without the current level of vitriol. So much of it is pure childishness, borne of a sense of entitlement to get in the last slash.

 

In some form or another, I suspect the Message Center will survive. It hasn't been the interesting place it used to be for some time now, probably due in no small part to some very thoughtful participants who no longer felt it worthwhile to participate. I would not call for the banishment of any of the current participants, but it would be commendable if everyone could step back for a moment and consider their current mode of participation and whether or not it strengthens or diminishes the quality of this forum.

 

As for me, I'm taking a vacation from the Message Center, and upon my return, I'll decide if this is a place where I want to spend time. For several weeks now, I've felt like throwing in the towel and just disappearing, as so many others have. My main reason is that I've been disappointed in some folks I previously respected for the way they have lashed out at others, with little regard to the value and significance the recipients of their wrath have exhibited here over the long haul.

 

I'm particularly bothered by all the venom directed toward Trilingual. I'm not saying he may not have acted in error at times, but who hasn't?

 

And while we're talking of moderators, let me plug my favorite: Barry. Barry has actually deleted a few of my posts, but he was always the gentleman in explaining why he felt it was necessary to do so, and at the end of the day, I think his reasoning was sound. As for the other moderators, I haven't had too many issues, and I've been here quite a while.

 

Again, my thanks for your thoughtful post, and here's hoping your suggestions will be taken seriously. I do want to see this place do more than just survive: I hope it will prosper. At the moment, I'm not terribly optimistic, but I guess time will tell.

[BewareofNick]

Barry is the perfect example of what a moderator should be.

[OneFinger]

BG,

 

Thank you for your eloquent post. It incorporates many of my own feelings. Your suggestions for the MC should be a springboard for discussions among those in charge.

 

I've missed your posts lately and am glad you are back providing reasonable responses in a changing environment!

[Rick Munroe and Derek Ross]

Well done, Medium Raya.

[Guest ChgoBoy]

>Barry is the perfect example of what a moderator should be.

 

I have to agree with BoN on this, even thou he hijacked my thread this afternoon and acted like a ruthless Queen....BoN, not Barry. I imagine Barry a very hot and cool guy....

 

 

}( }( :P

[BewareofNick]

I'm SORRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I'll get down on my knees and beg for forgiveness.

 

And while I'm down there.... }(

[Guest ChgoBoy]

>I'm SORRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

>

>I'll get down on my knees and beg for forgiveness.

>

>And while I'm down there.... }(

 

Oh Baby, do what comes naturally!

[Guest alanm]

To Boston Guy:

 

I hope that your health and family issues are successfully resolved.

I agree with many of the points you made in your long comments. That being said, it is easy to take a break from the MC, read several long threads and become frustrated. I feel much the same way about what has happened on this site recently. But, I will get over it and so should you.

 

On the other hand, this is far from the first time that the MC has gotten out of hand. If I remember correctly, even you -- the voice of reason -- were right in the middle of some of the most contentious threads.

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

BG,

 

I'm sorry to hear that you have been sidelined with important personal issues. I do hope that you are past them now and if not yet entirely then I extend my best wishes to you.

 

As always, a very thoughtful and thought-provoking post. As usual, our viewpoints share much in common. It's good to have you back from your absence.

[Guest YR]

Boston Guy,

 

Thank you for your heartfelt request and desire for the showing of Respect to both this board and its posters by all that visit here.

 

Your post is reminiscent of one from a number of years ago after a "meltdown" in what was the precursor to the Message Center.

 

I sincerely hope that your call for reason is heard, understood and heeded.

 

YR

[+ Lucky]

Any number of people here have been calling for more respect and less insults for some time now. Yet it seems that some just want to grandstand. I doubt that the board will change until the vast majority of the members here make it clear that they don't support the vitriol. There don't seem to be any alliances in Hooville, it is everyman for himself. Rather than join in with other's ideas, it is the norm to create your own thread about it.

 

Uncle Bill suggested the other day that a forum for insults be established so the rest of us can skip it...it's still a good idea. Why can't we start there?

[woodlawn]

>Hooboy had a vision that was pretty cool. Part of his vision

>involved gay men helping each other, sharing knowledge and

>experience, reaching out to each other across the Internet in

>a way that had previously been difficult. This Message Center

>became an integral part of his vision.

 

>The review site may have assited more people in hiring

>escorts, but I think this Message Center had far more lasting

>effect on the lives of many people.

 

That's not what I heard. In all the years I have been reading this board, I have never known Hooboy to say anything here about the MC other than that it gets only a small percentage of the attention from visitors that the reviews get, a statement he repeated many times, and that maintaining it is more trouble than it is worth as far as he was concerned.

 

You certainly have the right to express any opinion about the MC that you wish, but I find it pretty absurd that you claim to be trying to preserve Hooboy's "vision" while saying things that are diametrically opposed to the things he himself said here on numerous occasions over a long period of time.

 

 

>A small cadre of posters, including men who should know

>better, have brought a complete lack of respect for others to

>thread after thread.

 

I am getting extremely weary of seeing this particular falsehood.

 

The truth, as you surely know, is that there are precious few regular visitors to this site who have not on occasion shown a lack of respect for those who disagree with them on this or that issue, including you.

 

The frequency with which posters show disrespect for others here varies directly with the frequency with which they post here. I am reminded of a statistic sometimes quoted by feminists: only about 25% of workplace sexual harrassment complaints in America

are made against female executives. That sounds like a recommendation to put more women in executive positions -- until you consider the fact that about 25% of executives in American corporations are women. Which suggests that female executives are just as prone to commit sexual harrassment as male ones.

 

The truth is that the only way of eliminating sexual misconduct from the workplace is to eliminate people from the workplace. And another truth is that the only way to eliminate disrespect from the MC is to close it. If we are to judge from his public comments, that is probably much closer to Hooboy's vision for this site than the position you are taking in this post.

[jackhammer91406]

Self restraint- or cleaning our own mess

 

I was on vacation when this thread was started so I missed it. Thanks Lucky for bringing it back.

 

The ideas put forth in this thread have been around since before I started hanging out here (which will be three years in August...gasp)

there are folks who have been here much longer and who have better memories when it comes to reminding people of older posts or behavior.

 

I CAN remember the sense of community that was apparent when I first started lurking. Back then, there were still turf wars and tirades. There was "you are", " no you are". Much like any playground when each of us were kids. There didn't seem to be too many people on here who had met it the real world, but you could tell who got along and who didn't.

 

Back then, (as now) there were always some people that nobody seemed to like, but they were here none the less. The unloved ones as I will call them, often would stir the pot, stand back and watch it boil over, and then go to another thread and do the same thing. I could never quite get my mind around that concept until I realized that that was their way of avoiding responsibility for their OWN actions. As long as someone else was EVER guilty of the same thing, these pot stirrers never had to be responsible for doing it as well.

 

Over time, I have seen the bitch fests come and go. I have even gotten into the middle of them, (often with the intention of trying to mediate and calm..while seldom having that impact), only to find myself chewed up with the next ground assault and spit out like so much dross.

 

 

There don't seem to be any

>alliances in Hooville, it is everyman for himself.

 

 

Lucky, I don't know what you mean by this... I have friends here and I would do whatever I could to help them when they are in trouble, but I don't always agree with them. Does this mean I am not friends with them? Do I have to sign some pact? heheh

Honestly, before you get upset with me for that, let me say that I would travel 90 some miles to try to make up for anything I say that hurts you. heheh

 

 

>Uncle Bill suggested the other day that a forum for insults be

>established so the rest of us can skip it...it's still a good

>idea. Why can't we start there?

 

I'll tell you why I don't think having a bitch forum will work.

First, everyone would have to agree that it would be the ONLY place where awful things could be said and we KNOW that just ain't gonna happen.

Secondly,Stuff will get said in that forum that won't pass even the lowest standards, and it will spill over to everything else.

 

The problem that faces us now is the lack of self restraint. Taking a breath and letting an opportunity pass without fouling the waters with s--t is an act of an ADULT. We aren't talking about only adults. We have some kids here. And just like when we were in college and had to learn to stop the party , get some sleep and finish the term papers or face the consequences, that's what we face here as well.

 

If we are going to clean the room, let's CLEAN IT. Let's don't couch it in high minded rhetoric, let's call it what it is. After setting out the rules of play, those who can manage their behavior can stay, those who can't, well they have another place to play so go over there. I can distinguish between someone who uses wit and even sarcasm to make a point, and someone who is just out to make a point at anyone's expense.

 

Somewhere along the line, name calling passes for intellect and throwing slime passes for wit.

And while we as gay men are supposed to be witty, charming, highly intellegent, with great taste and artistic skills honed from years of practice, what appears on these pages is often just mincing bitchy queenie behavior that the str8 worldd loves to mimic and we are then reduced to negative stereotypes rather than the great artists, thinkers and style mavens the world has always needed us to be.

 

HAs it always been this way around here? Yeah as long as I have been here, but it seems to be really bad right now, you are right. Will it get better? Probably not until everyone is either playing as an adult or everyone is playing as a child. You do the math. What are the odds?

[FrancoDiSantisxxx]

Rattled Brains, Scrambled Nerves

 

>Any number of people here have been calling for more respect

>and less insults for some time now. Yet it seems that some

>just want to grandstand.

 

Those who have been here for a while can remember all the Take Back The Site threads from a few years ago. If you do a search further back (to earlier versions of the software), similar pleas were visible as far back as 2000, before I ever had a review up, much less knew of the existence of this site. I think these problems will continue long after I (and others) are gone (or banned, temporarily or otherwise). It is, unfortunately, "part of the nature of the beast" as Hoo Boy himself one put.

 

Those of us here for a while can also remember the threads which pointedly attacked Hoo Boy and pointed (as in this instance) people to another site, where certain "truths" and "facts" about Hoo Boy were to be revealed. Again, this is part and parcel of being public figures, for those of us who are not hiding behind nom de plumes, as many of you do, and even for some of you who are not so much hiding, as using, a handle.

 

>Uncle Bill suggested the other day that a forum for insults be

>established so the rest of us can skip it...it's still a good

>idea. Why can't we start there?

 

The suggestion has been made time and time again to simply ignore and avoid the problem people and to simply ignore and avoid the posts of people you neither agree with, like nor feel they have something to contribute.

 

This advice has been given countless number of times, yet people cannot resist the effort to rise to the bait, so the lure will continue to drop into the water, because someone, somewhere, someplace, will swim by and bite.

[Guest alanm]

I know that I going to get much flack for this posting, so be it. If the message center fails, I believe it was this posting by BostonGuy that killed it. BG makes some excellent points, but all these weeks later I still resent the lecturing, nanny-like quality of his comments particularly since BG was often in the middle of controversial threads himself. I like BG very much, but at some point, the frequent lectures -- always from BG's lofty moral heights -- became insulting. I often disagree with Doug, Woodlawn and BoN, but at least they do not make me feel like a school boy who has fucked up. The sad thing is that BG could have made many of the same points without always sitting on a cloud weighing everyone else's ethics.

[BewareofNick]

A picture of BG as he was saying his post aloud:

 

http://images.unseelie.unseelie.us/church_lady.jpg

[Cooper]

BoN, Thanks... Very funny!

 

Every now and then we should all take a step back and have a good laugh... Unfortunately, many of us take comments posted here way too seriously.

[BewareofNick]

>BoN, Thanks... Very funny!

>

>Every now and then we should all take a step back and have a

>good laugh... Unfortunately, many of us take comments posted

>here way too seriously.

 

Well, isn't that special? I wonder who might want us to take posts too seriously? Hmm, I don't know...Hmm, could it be...

 

SATAN???

[Txpaytoplay]

My Hats off to you BG. Good Post

[JT Brooklyn]

The Message Center isn't going anywhere! It will be here for a Long Time. "Definitely Longer than The Detractors"! Most aren't Spring "Chickens"! LOL :+