In or Out?

ready182 · August 14, 2004

Was just wondering how many of the regular posters are in or out of the closet???

As for me, chalk one up to "in".

Ready

OneFinger · August 14, 2004

For me the answer is really not one or the other. It's more "situational".

Family = Out

Friends = Out

Work (if asked) = Out

Work (if not asked) = Don't Ask Don't Tell (I don't usually discuss my personal life at work.)

Neighbors (if asked) = Out

Neighbors (if not asked) = Probably Out (The rainbow flag, pink flamingos, and all-male visitors are huge hints.)

In short, I don't deny my lifestyle. But, I also don't go out of my way to make it an issue. I've found that some people just don't want to know so I let them think what they want.

Barry · August 14, 2004

Thanx for saving me all the typing OneFinger.

Same goes for me. Family and friends...Out. Anyone else, if they ask, I tell them.

Barry

+ *Charlie* · August 14, 2004

Out to Friends: since 1960

Out to Family: since 1962

Out to Government: since 1965

Out at Work: since 1976

Out to General Public: depends on the situation

AaronScottDC · August 14, 2004

Out to anyone who wants to know.

Aaron Scott DC

http://www.erados.com/AaronScottDC

http://www.male4malescorts.com/reviews/aaronscottdc.html

Rick Munroe · August 14, 2004

>Out to Government: since 1965

That's interesting; how does one come out to the government? I'm not being facetious; do you mean on the census form or your taxes or...?

Oh, as for my answer: am I "out" if I was never "in"?

Rick Munroe · August 14, 2004

>I've found that some people

>just don't want to know so I let them think what they want.

But how do you know whether or not they want to know without telling them? :o

Spida · August 14, 2004

Generally "in" but out to a few friends mostly new friends and I am "out" on the M4M board.

Spida · August 14, 2004

Generally "in" but out to a few friends mostly new friends and I am "out" on the M4M board.

OneFinger · August 14, 2004

>But how do you know whether or not they want to know without telling them? :o

Because I've seen how uncomfortable they get whenever others discuss their love lives. One of my managers has lived with his girlfriend for over 15 years and they have two daughters together. There are a couple of people that blush, cough, and change the subject whenever he refers to his "significant other" (his term of preference for his wife).

I've also found them very narrow-minded when the subject of gay marriage comes up. They don't bring up the subject or start the debate but become very vocal and agitated when others voice support for the issue.

In a work environment, IMHO, there are some subjects that are best not discussed. One-on-one, outside of work, I'll gladly discuss my lifestyle with anyone. But, until they ask or express some interest in my personal life, I can only assume they don't want to know. (And that doesn't bother me a bit. I'm not looking to try and convert someone who has strongly-held opinions and beleves that homosexuality is a sin on the same level as murder.)

OneFinger · August 14, 2004

>But how do you know whether or not they want to know without telling them? :o

Because I've seen how uncomfortable they get whenever others discuss their love lives. One of my managers has lived with his girlfriend for over 15 years and they have two daughters together. There are a couple of people that blush, cough, and change the subject whenever he refers to his "significant other" (his term of preference for his wife).

I've also found them very narrow-minded when the subject of gay marriage comes up. They don't bring up the subject or start the debate but become very vocal and agitated when others voice support for the issue.

In a work environment, IMHO, there are some subjects that are best not discussed. One-on-one, outside of work, I'll gladly discuss my lifestyle with anyone. But, until they ask or express some interest in my personal life, I can only assume they don't want to know. (And that doesn't bother me a bit. I'm not looking to try and convert someone who has strongly-held opinions and beleves that homosexuality is a sin on the same level as murder.)

+ *Charlie* · August 14, 2004

I was an officer in a pre-Stonewall gay rights organization, and took part in one of the first gay rights demonstrations, which was observed by the Hoover-era FBI (which I learned years later). I also declared my sexual orientation to my draft board in 1966.

+ *Charlie* · August 14, 2004

I was an officer in a pre-Stonewall gay rights organization, and took part in one of the first gay rights demonstrations, which was observed by the Hoover-era FBI (which I learned years later). I also declared my sexual orientation to my draft board in 1966.

OneFinger · August 14, 2004

Charlie, I'm impressed with your activism and grass-roots role in the gay rights movement! It took a lot of balls to do something like that during a very volatile period of time.

I "assumed" out to the government was a reference to a government security clearance. Prior to "Don't Ask Don't Tell" military gays were not allowed to hold security clearances. Not sure if that's still the case. But, in the civil service community, being an out-of-the-closet gay isn't cause for denial of a clearance. But, being in the closet and lying about it, could be considered a potential blackmail situation which would preclude you from getting a clearance.

OneFinger · August 14, 2004

Charlie, I'm impressed with your activism and grass-roots role in the gay rights movement! It took a lot of balls to do something like that during a very volatile period of time.

I "assumed" out to the government was a reference to a government security clearance. Prior to "Don't Ask Don't Tell" military gays were not allowed to hold security clearances. Not sure if that's still the case. But, in the civil service community, being an out-of-the-closet gay isn't cause for denial of a clearance. But, being in the closet and lying about it, could be considered a potential blackmail situation which would preclude you from getting a clearance.

HooBoy · August 14, 2004

I forgot to respond, thus the edit:

Out to family for only 10 or 15 years. When I told them, they said "we knew all the time anyway. We love you no matter what."

Around work, it is not something that has been an issue with me. I had a lover for years who was always invited to functions.

Friends: Out, definately, but if they are straight, it never really comes up as a topic of conversation any more than their sexual practices come up. (My best straight friend recently asked me what I would do if he asked me to give him a blow job and I said I thought it would be unfair to his wife for me to do that and said I would not. He went upstairs, presumably to get it from his wife...)

Charlie wrote: " I also declared my sexual orientation to my draft board in 1966."

Hey Charlie, that was around the time I was going up for my draft physical. Declaring homosexuality was bandied about in school, but no one I knew had the guts to do it. (I had one friend who asked me to shoot his toe off for a deferment. (They did not give it to him.)

I am curious to learn what their reaction was to your saying you were gay and what procedures they put you through to prove it. (I always secretly wished they would make me blow all the guys lined up naked for the "cough" to prove my homo-ness.)

In retrospect, I wish I had been as comfortable in my skin as you were in 1966.

HooBoy · August 14, 2004

I forgot to respond, thus the edit:

Out to family for only 10 or 15 years. When I told them, they said "we knew all the time anyway. We love you no matter what."

Around work, it is not something that has been an issue with me. I had a lover for years who was always invited to functions.

Friends: Out, definately, but if they are straight, it never really comes up as a topic of conversation any more than their sexual practices come up. (My best straight friend recently asked me what I would do if he asked me to give him a blow job and I said I thought it would be unfair to his wife for me to do that and said I would not. He went upstairs, presumably to get it from his wife...)

Charlie wrote: " I also declared my sexual orientation to my draft board in 1966."

Hey Charlie, that was around the time I was going up for my draft physical. Declaring homosexuality was bandied about in school, but no one I knew had the guts to do it. (I had one friend who asked me to shoot his toe off for a deferment. (They did not give it to him.)

I am curious to learn what their reaction was to your saying you were gay and what procedures they put you through to prove it. (I always secretly wished they would make me blow all the guys lined up naked for the "cough" to prove my homo-ness.)

In retrospect, I wish I had been as comfortable in my skin as you were in 1966.

August 14, 2004

The only time that I've been asked was when I was a Sophomore in college. My best friend (straight) asked if I liked girls but before I could answer he followed with "never mind, it dosen't matter anyways." Later on when he asked me to be his best man I asked if I could carry a bouquet. He laughed and responded that in our small home town it wouldn't go over very well. I assumed he knew I was gay.

I would say from my mid 20s on I was out. By that I mean that I no longer made any pretense of dating women, etc. At work, I never discussed my sex life (the straights in my office didn't do much of that either) but I spoke openly of my friends (all male) and my interests such as cooking, theater, etc. which might make some "butch" numbers suspicious. I was very confident in my profession so I really didn't worry about it. I am now in my 60s and for many years have had a "speak my mind and don't give a shit" attitude on all matters. Since I am very liberal politically and very vocal about it, I'm not sure if most people would interpret my views as those of a gay man or just a left winger. I frankly don't care.

It was interesting that recently my older brother, who is in his 80s, and I talked for the first time about my being gay. I always knew he knew that I was but we had never talked about it. He brought it up because he said that he wanted me to know that it never mattered to him and since he was getting up there in years he didn't want to die without telling me.

August 14, 2004

The only time that I've been asked was when I was a Sophomore in college. My best friend (straight) asked if I liked girls but before I could answer he followed with "never mind, it dosen't matter anyways." Later on when he asked me to be his best man I asked if I could carry a bouquet. He laughed and responded that in our small home town it wouldn't go over very well. I assumed he knew I was gay.

I would say from my mid 20s on I was out. By that I mean that I no longer made any pretense of dating women, etc. At work, I never discussed my sex life (the straights in my office didn't do much of that either) but I spoke openly of my friends (all male) and my interests such as cooking, theater, etc. which might make some "butch" numbers suspicious. I was very confident in my profession so I really didn't worry about it. I am now in my 60s and for many years have had a "speak my mind and don't give a shit" attitude on all matters. Since I am very liberal politically and very vocal about it, I'm not sure if most people would interpret my views as those of a gay man or just a left winger. I frankly don't care.

It was interesting that recently my older brother, who is in his 80s, and I talked for the first time about my being gay. I always knew he knew that I was but we had never talked about it. He brought it up because he said that he wanted me to know that it never mattered to him and since he was getting up there in years he didn't want to die without telling me.

guyinsf · August 14, 2004

Out to everyone since the last few years of high school. When I say "to everyone," I don't mean that I wear a shirt or carry a sign that says "I'm gay" but I haven't attempted to hide the fact that I'm gay since high school. (And, no, I haven't lived in the liberal San Francisco area the entire time, either.)

Perhaps a word of encouragement to those who are still "in the closet": I've had various friends who had attempted to keep their homosexuality hidden from various people in their lives, most frequently parents. In every case by the time those friends felt comfortable "coming out," the recipients of the news acknowledged knowing already anyway. Usually the relationships only grew stronger as opposed to the "I caused my mother/father to have a heart attack and die" fantasy that many closeted gay guys seem to hold onto. I do believe that everyone has a choice as to whether to come out and to whom -- well, I'm not so sure that I extend that privilege to people in positions of power who work to discriminate against gays while having gay sex themselves -- but I do think you should ask yourself whether remaining in the closet is really your current choice or if it's just a continuation of secrecy that served a purpose in the past but which is no longer needed.

guyinsf · August 14, 2004

Out to everyone since the last few years of high school. When I say "to everyone," I don't mean that I wear a shirt or carry a sign that says "I'm gay" but I haven't attempted to hide the fact that I'm gay since high school. (And, no, I haven't lived in the liberal San Francisco area the entire time, either.)

Perhaps a word of encouragement to those who are still "in the closet": I've had various friends who had attempted to keep their homosexuality hidden from various people in their lives, most frequently parents. In every case by the time those friends felt comfortable "coming out," the recipients of the news acknowledged knowing already anyway. Usually the relationships only grew stronger as opposed to the "I caused my mother/father to have a heart attack and die" fantasy that many closeted gay guys seem to hold onto. I do believe that everyone has a choice as to whether to come out and to whom -- well, I'm not so sure that I extend that privilege to people in positions of power who work to discriminate against gays while having gay sex themselves -- but I do think you should ask yourself whether remaining in the closet is really your current choice or if it's just a continuation of secrecy that served a purpose in the past but which is no longer needed.

Boston Guy · August 14, 2004

As with others here, it depends on the context.

In my personal life, I'm out to everyone who is close enough to need or want to know: family, friends, neighbors, etc., and have been for close to 25 years. Anyone who is curious enough to ask gets a matter-of-fact answer, usually with a laugh: "Of course!" I assume that members of my extended family all know as well, but I don't know for sure and don't care. I don't see them often enough for it to be an issue.

At work, I've been out for almost as long to colleagues and business partners. People involved in companies that I have started have known from the get-go. That's not because I think it's really anyone else's concern; instead, it just gets it off the board as an issue.

In one company, we used to go out as a group on Friday nights. I was the only gay member of the crowd but we'd have a drink at a straight bar, then go have a drink at a gay bar, and keep going back and forth until we were tired of changing venue. It used to be fun watching straight male friends dancing on a gay dance floor: they were ok so long as there were still women in the group dancing. If the women left, the straight guys would want to get off the dance floor shortly after.

One colleague of mine (straight) was in a gay bar with me once while I was wandering around. When I returned, he told me with a shit-eating grin that a young guy tried to pick him up. He loved it and told his wife that she had better be good or he could "cross over to the other side."

I don't disclose my sexuality to customers, unless we get close enough for that to happen naturally. It isn't an issue and it's none of their business, just like it's none of my business what their sexuality is. But, if the conversation turns to personal activities (i.e., "What did you do on vacation?"), I tell the truth. A typical answer might be something like "A friend and I went to Berlin. I liked it but he loved it..." I've never had a problem, even in some of the most conservative/religious areas of the country.

Looking back, I can't imagine not coming out. Once I had come out to myself, it was clear I had to come out to those people who were important to me. That process took about a year to complete but went great. I lost one close friend (from college) but actually got closer to others. In a few cases, friends told me that they really appreciated the trust and confidence I had in them.

My family and I are all close. I simply don't see how I could have an honest relationship with them while not disclosing a fact that is, in some ways, central to parts of my life. I want to know what's going on in their lives -- what they're doing, what they're thinking, what their hopes and fears are, how I can help them or simply be a good brother or son. They deserve to know exactly the same things about me and my life, without pretense or obfuscation.

I think perhaps it would be very, very sad to be dying and, when looking back over one's life, to think "I wish I had been honest with people. I wish I had been brave enough to be the person I really was. I with I had lived the life I really wanted to." As the saying goes, we only get one life and, religious expectations notwithstanding, it's most likely not a dress rehearsal. We each should try to make the best of it, living an honest, good life that allows us to enjoy our time here and be good to those around us. Hiding a central fact about ourselves because of fear seems contrary to that.

BG

Boston Guy · August 14, 2004