Another HIV + escort...

[Rick Munroe]

>ANYONE who would state that a self-hatred, suicidal, non-safe

>sexual practice is the result of Christianity, is a TOTAL

>ASSHOLE!

 

I wouldn't put it in those exact words but I'm with you on this one, Hawk.

[Rick Munroe]

>You left out dinners by candlelight and long walks on the

>beach. :*

 

Yeah, well, it goes without saying that you're a romantic fool.

[VaHawk]

FUCK, WHAT TOTAL BULLSHIT!!! Lord KNOWS that Lucky and myself have virulently disagreed, and not often nicely, but Lucky, imo, is 100% on target on this thread!!!

 

When I read the original post, I thought it was just a heart-felt expression of concern for a friend, but after all the bs posts that followed I have to agree with Lucky's original expressed opinion!

 

WHY SHOULD HE POSSIBLY OWE AN APOLOGY to anyone for expressing his opinion when such expresed opinion in NO WAY violated the policies of this site??? and in turn, was not in ANY WAY, a personal attack?????

 

LOL!!! WHAT BULLSHIT! I, personally, would LOVE to know why an honest opinion by a well-respected poster of Lucky's caliber is open to assault and why that assault is justified in support of an escort with less than reputable reviews/mc comments, and why in turn, it is PERFECTLY OKAY, to assault other escorts like David Gartner???

 

All of this aside, I PERSONALLY found it OFFENSIVE that NOW, all of us Christians are RESPONSIBLE for the personal sexual irresponsiblity of an adult's sexual practices?????

 

I may not agree 100% (personally I agree 95%) with Lucky's opinion on this thread, but DAMN IT!, I certainly agree 100% with his right to post it without all the DAMN bs and castigations hurled against him, especially given his support of this site and his support of others' rights on this site!

[VaHawk]

Since no names were mentioned, as stated by HB himself and others, just whose reputation is Lucky being accused of by you as attempting of damaging????

 

It sure is a good thing, that neither of us depends on the other!

[taylorky]

LOL...as usual i agree with you AND of course the lucky..

 

seems to me this guy (the modest "hot stud")has an inflated opinion of himself,come back to earth fella..your job doesn't involve finding a cure for cancer...just selling your asshole to the next guy with a couple of b.franklins!!!!!

 

and before the the flamers start...this is not an indictment of ALL escorts, just the ones that come across as assholes

 

side message to hawk with any luck it will be next year....but knowing me i could be a 5 or 6 yr ug;(

[VaHawk]

>side message to hawk with any luck it will be next

>year....but knowing me i could be a 5 or 6 yr ug;(

 

Hey taylorky, whatever it takes! My #2 and very favorite nephew took 6 years, and he went to Alaska-Fairbanks!! Of course he knocked up an Eskimo girl when he was 19 - now you stay away from those coal miner daughters in KY! unless they sing like Loretta!.

 

LOL! Whatever, I'm sure your family and friends will support you in your endeavors, but just don't deny us here in Hooville our Hootenanny!

 

BTW: My final 2 in the NCAA basketball pool, is Stanford over Kentucky in the title game(please don't hiss at me! )

[VaHawk]

WOW!!! TALK ABOUT OVERREACTING! Why are you so angry at Lucky, as I didn't see a DAMN thing on this thread from Lucky to You that was nasty or threatening?

 

Lucky aside, I find your latest posts to be offensive to any one who would be a potential client, but then again maybe you're like Ryan and don't GIVE A FUCK about attracting new clients as you are "special" and have a stable of steadies!

 

Your demand for client names is really out of line on this site or any site that a client would go to for the purpose of hiring an escort. It really makes you sound like a WHORE! with a nasty, vindictive streak!

 

Enjoy your drink with Ryan, and swap jokes about all the pathetic fucking clients who had the misfortune to hire either one of you!

[HooBoy]

I had no idea Lucky was an escort.

__

 

The above written as a regular guy, not the owner of a website and has no official meaning, just unofficial BS.)

__

 

--garbo the hoo

[+ Lucky]

Hey Hooboy, it's 10 am in New York and you don't have your reviews up...again. Maybe you should spend less time on tacky comments and more time giving your advertisers their money's worth.

[Guest HOTnySTUDRYAN]

Wow, to be honest, some of these posts are truly starting to scare me...I don't read these message boards, except when I post, which has happened like 2 or 3 times in the last 2 years.

 

I can't believe I'm posting again, a part of me is yelling at me -- you have a lot to do, this isn't one of the priorities in your life!...but well I started it and I do have a few thoughts. And I have found this whole thing fascinating, I must admit.

 

All I can say is THANK GOD for decent people on this planet...and that my friends and family raised me with the values they did.

 

Va Hawk, I won't respond to all the...um...stuff in your posts. Wow. So you'll probably get the last word, as will anyone who spews hate at me. I just tune it out and, well to be honest, find it amusing...then sad.

 

I had begun to gain some respect for Lucky, he seemed to be doing a bit of very healthy introspection in one or two of the posts. But then he descended back in to Jerry Springer world again, worse than before, attacking not just me now, but HooBoy, Devon, etc. Too bad. : (

 

I would humbly suggest to you both, and to a few other posters on these boards, that not everyone thinks like you about how to treat escorts and how to treat other human beings. It seems your level of civility is...well....very different than mine. I'm kinda old fashioned and I believe very much in chivalry.

 

And it is simply a fact that your projections and assumptions about my "motivations" in posting my initial post are all wrong. A little humility on your parts in these matters will go a long way in making you friends. But humility is not accessable to people UNLESS they are very secure in their identities. Then they don't need to cling to their perceptions and never consider they might be wrong -- for fear of losing a stable sense of who they are. Most aren't brave enough to have genuine humility. Seems kinda like a contradiction, doesn't it? But it's true. Humility requires profound courage.

 

I think being inviting and respectful towards others wins you friends, good people and more and more love in your life. Thus, being a kind and respectful person is one of the most self-serving things you can do: it attracts to you people who share those values, psychological safety, loyal friends, and a lot of fun! (Maybe you guys should watch "A Christmas Carol" a few times.)

 

I am VERY happy to report to VA HAWK that I agree with you that my generalization about Christians was wrong and offensive to some.

 

However, your manner of speaking to others strikes me as one of the most ironic examples I've ever encountered of NOT behaving like I believe many Christians advocate behaving: not judging, not abusing other people, communicating from LOVE and compassion....with civility and humility.

 

Would you be willing to take your posts here, filled with all the profanity and name-calling and personal attacks, to any reputable minister you know and ask them their opinion about whether or not your style would, um, make other Christians proud?

 

As for me having a drink with Devon, I just need to say that despite your MANY psychological projections onto me and insecurity about what we escorts think about you, you would likely not be the focus of our time together. I don't sit around and tell jokes about people usually, and that includes clients. Frankly, my life is not escorting, I don't really meet other escorts, and I don't talk about escorting with my friends much. I'm a very normal guy with a real life I'm pursuing, escorting is very near its end for me. I saw one client in the last week, twice. And NONE in the previous two weeks. And this client seems to becoming a friend: he is very cool and we're going to see a Broadway show Firday night-- as friends. I'm probably wasting money on ads I get so many calls, many calls I have to return several days later.

 

The clients I see are 99% wonderful people, hiring escorts not out of desperation or because they are weirdos (hey, I'm a weirdo, weirdos can be cool), but frankly out of convenience! If a client ever spoke to me the way you all spoke in this forum, I would not be sticking around long. Perhaps this difference in value systems explains why VA Hawk and Lucky and a few others wouldn't hire me -- and why indeed I've had a few (less than 5) unhappy experiences with clients in my two years escorting. How could an escort NOT have an occassional bad experience after doing this for a while?

 

In each instance, the client was EXTREMELY disrespectful towards me in one way or another. I can't tolerate that, it hurts too much. I'm a sensitive person. And because I really love and respect myself, I protect myself when I need to.

 

I'll give you ONE tiny example of a bad apple client: in the middle of our play session, which was fun by the way, he whispered into my ear: "It's so hot to have a whore sucking my..." I stood up, and asked him not to say another word, and asked for the money, given that I had been there 10 minutes short of an hour and I had done nothing wrong. Quite the contrary, this guy got his money's worth, BELIEVE YOU ME. He apologized profusely, but that comment went way too far for me to reset my interaction with him. He thought that, he said that, and I'm outta there...In the nonescorting world, this is just how ANYONE self-respecting would respond to such abuse. I expect the rules to be the same when I interact with clients....UNLESS there is agreed upon role playing, then that's a different story.

 

You might also consider that we escorts have to terminate phone calls rather abruptly with many potential clients. Why? Because they say extremely offensive things to us, or their TONE is overtly degrading or even scary: heavy breathing, saying things like "how much are you and what do i get for it?" and before even saying hello ...um, NO, Ryan don't play that.

 

I try very hard to screen clients carefully -- just as clients try hard and choose escorts carefully. But my screening hasn't always worked. I've been ripped off $1500 and stranded at a hotel in the middle of nowhere, I've had to call the police twice when psycho clients tried not to pay me at the end of the time. It happens. And despite these RARE interactions, I manage to RESET each time I answer the phone so that my behavior is in line with my values about how to treat other human beings, clients or not.

 

To state it succinctly, I remain happy, open and not cynical or bitter or jaded, in spite of the few bad apples I've met. And I have a blast with most every client I meet. I've made a few very close friends even, who have given me SO much in so many ways.

 

Anyway hate/gossip posters, clearly, we have very, very, very different ways of interacting with others.

 

I can say I truly wish you all well. I hope, for your sake VA HAWK, that you are one of those people who spews hate...and it's like some kind of catharthis for you or something...and then you get over it and it's gone and you're calm...Because if that's NOT the case and you behave the way you have behaved in this discussion towards most people you meet, well then I hope you don't own a gun or anything, being that you are in VA. If you own one, have you used it on anyone yet?

 

Sweet Jesus.

 

- RYAN

[Guest HOTnySTUDRYAN]

Dear Rick/Derek,

 

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. If I had had more time, I would have written a more lengthy post about those subjects -- sex, drugs, degrading sex, pissing fisting and gang raping, role playing, etc. -- which I do think are very complicated: psychologically, biologically, culturally and sociologically. You can talk about them from each of these perspectives.

 

I certianly agree with much of what you wrote (role playing, for example, serves important psychological functions). But my friend, there are reasons SOME people want to be treated like a "faggot" and "gagged" and pissed on. It's called internalized homophobia. I'm not saying people should stop doing these role plays, if they remain happy in life and are healthy, it's fine!

 

I like role playing. I don't personally crave degrading sex, frankly I think it's because no one ever taught me I'm a faggot, or a dirty faggot, or anything like that. So I don't eroticize that particular fantasy.

 

I do eroticize watching high school boys I went to school with peeing and calling me faggot and making me suck their dick...And this is a bit of homophobia in me, I think, in me due to the fact that SOME boys (Jeff W.) in high school stared at me with hatred...But they never said anything, so it wasn't that bad. So now I fantasize a lot about me sucking his dick -- perhaps it's a psychological attempt to gain control/ power in a situation that I am in real life powerless in. That IS healthy. And it's fine.

 

But if it leads you to deadly immune-system destroying behaviors, that is not fine: like violent fisting, crystal meth addiction, sex club addiction where you are in a sling and fucked by strangers while you are gagged...Not so sure these things are life-affirming enough. But it depends on each situation and each behavior.

 

I would respectfully point out that you kinda put a few words in my mouth...and took what I said to extremes that I don't believe. For example, I never said "vanilla sex is the only good and pure and healthy way to have sex." In fact, I have basically no idea what I wrote that led you to that statement...I also didn't intend, and I don't think I did, speak from a judgmental place. Maybe I did a little bit, not sure, but I didn't mean to.

 

It sounds like if we had a more in-depth discussion, judging from your post, we'd probably agree on most of these subjects.

 

But then maybe not. I don't know.

 

But I certainly appreciate the civil tone of your post.

 

Let me leave you with some provocative thoughts that I sincerely believe:

 

I believe HOMOPHOBIA, among straight people or internalized by gay people, can lead to the creation of an gay ecology that destroys immune systems...this is what happend in the late 70s and early 80s in SF and NY and elsewhere when AIDS cames along: again, all the drugs (so much you can't believe -- drugs we haven't even heard of), both prescription and recreational, all the STDs (virtually everyone had every STD! and many of the STDs they got over and over), the love-free, intimacy-free bathhouse culture (it was their whole life in these cities!), chronic malnutrition among those living this "lifestyle", the physically damaging trauma to the intestines of all the fisting and constant fucking (sorry, Gay Bowel Syndrome existed before AIDS,where do you think that came from?) and toxic lubes with cancer causing chemicals in them (yes, don't put eros and astroglide and many other lubes up your ass, they have carcinogens in them!).

 

AIDS is a complicated phenomenon, it's time we recognize that. Thinking it's all about the virus and nothing else is just a gross oversimplification of how our bodies work -- told to us by activists who wanted to scare EVERYONE about AIDS and who were afraid the right wing would lynch us if we talked about the drug use and the bathhouse culture, and all the STDs going on at the time. And they were probably right in choosing to not talk about all that. But some activists like Larry Kramer and Michael Callen were anyway -- talking about how we needed to end the "fast track lifestyle." Larry wrote a book called "We Must Love One Another Or Die." Boy was he right.

 

And it's ironic that he is now dying of AIDS med poisoning...he never got AIDS...but started taking those toxic drugs a couple of years ago for some reason, and now his liver is failing, like so many others on those AIDS drugs. Very sad.

 

So the real story about AIDS is much more complicated than condoms and a virus. Immune systems fail for LOTS of reasons, not JUST HIV. You can destroy your immune system without HIV (become an injection drug addict and fist yourself everyday for a few months, see what happens).

 

And you can have HIV and stay AIDS-med free and never get AIDS -- I know dozens of men who are POZ and AIDS-med free and who've lived for over 15 years with no sign of illness...They live VERY healthy lives, and it seems they will be fine until their natural death.

 

So when we heal the remaining homophobia and injection drug epidemics here in the U.S., AIDS will be basically totally wiped out of the United States, along with those TERRIBLE AIDS meds that are killing so many people -- ugh.

 

Condoms aren't the only answer anymore, self-love and healing homophobia is. Then people stay way from hard drugs, stay away from unsafe sex, and enter into long-term fulfilling relationships.

 

Do I sound like Jerry Falwell? Of course not, he believes that being gay is inherently deadly and leads you to hell. I hate him. I place blame on his world-view for causing so much self-hatred among gay people!

 

I'm promoting a more complex discussion of what AIDS is about, and I'm promoting more fully accepting ourselves as gay people -- more self-love. That's the opposite of Jerry Falwell's agenda.

 

Thanks, RYAN

 

p.s.- ok , that does it. I can't spend time like this posting here...I've been a bad boy.

 

>Ryan, this is the second time in this thread that you've

>equated humiliation and S&M to a homophobic death wish. I

>completely disgree. Dirty or degrading talk during sex is

>roleplay. Roleplay is healthy; just ask Dr. Ruth. As for

>fisting and water sports, while I don't personally get into

>those activities, I think it's ridiculous to assert that

>someone who does wants to or will die as a result. And many,

>many straight people get off on rough sex, bondage, water

>sports, humiliating talk, etc., so it's also ridiculous to

>call it internalized homophobia. Yes, real rape and violence

>is wrong and bad, but there is absolutely nothing wrong or

>dangerous about fantasy and roleplay, as long as safe sex is

>involved. As a matter of fact, fantasies are often what help

>to make safer sex more fun.

>

>Devon often writes in his diary and in his posts that he loves

>being manhandled, gutpunched, thrown into a wall, having his

>tits worked hard until they're sore. Are you saying that

>Devon really hates himself and wants to die as a result of

>these fetishes, and that he suffers from internalized

>homophobia? I can't speak for Devon but I hardly think that's

>the case.

>

>You disparagingly mention "the Christian types" but your point

>here (that vanilla sex is the only good and pure and healthy

>way to have sex) is just as judgmental as anything I've heard

>from Jerry Falwell. Of course barebacking is stupid and I

>never do it, nor do I do drugs, but to equate barebacking and

>crystal addiction with fetishes such as humiliation or piss or

>S&M is just wrong.

[+ Lucky]

"I believe HOMOPHOBIA, among straight people or internalized by gay people, can lead to the creation of an gay ecology that destroys immune systems...this is what happend in the late 70s and early 80s in SF and NY and elsewhere when AIDS cames along: again, all the drugs (so much you can't believe -- drugs we haven't even heard of), both prescription and recreational, all the STDs (virtually everyone had every STD! and many of the STDs they got over and over), the love-free, intimacy-free bathhouse culture (it was their whole life in these cities!), chronic malnutrition among those living this "lifestyle", the physically damaging trauma to the intestines of all the fisting and constant fucking (sorry, Gay Bowel Syndrome existed before AIDS,where do you think that came from?) and toxic lubes with cancer causing chemicals in them (yes, don't put eros and astroglide and many other lubes up your ass, they have carcinogens in them!)."

 

Your ignorance is just amazing. Are you now saying that those infected in the early stages of the epidemic were infected due to their internalized homophobia? Are you saying that everyone infected was because their "whole life" was in this bathhouse culture that you describe?

[woodlawn]

>AIDS is a complicated phenomenon, it's time we recognize that.

>Thinking it's all about the virus and nothing else is just a

>gross oversimplification of how our bodies work -- told to us

>by activists who wanted to scare EVERYONE about AIDS and who

>were afraid the right wing would lynch us if we talked about

>the drug use and the bathhouse culture, and all the STDs going

>on at the time.

 

Although the immune system can be damaged by lots of things, I don't think I'm mistaken in saying that there is a substantial body of research showing that the HIV organism can be expected to destroy the immune system of anyone infected with it over time if that person does not receive treatment to suppress the activity of the organism, and that this happens regardless of the lifestyle of the patient -- in other words, that living a "healthy" lifestyle does not prevent HIV from destroying one's immune system. If that is correct, it makes a great deal of sense for people concerned about AIDS to focus on behavior that prevents transmission of the organism -- and it is dangerous to spread the idea that lifestyle changes having nothing to do with transmission can protect one from AIDS.

[Doug69]

RE: Lucky stumbled into the truth

 

>Devon, whose "agenda" (I prefer the word experience) should I

>bring to a discussion other than my own? I think I have

>explained that I realize Ryan is coming at this from a

>different point of view than me. Other than what I have

>already posted to Boston Guy, I can't see that anything more

>can be said.

 

Hey Lucky - as you know, I hate almost everything you write and think that most of what you say is dumb or wrong, but you are so 100% right on in everything that you are saying in this thread that I've been reading it for days and never felt a need to post because you said everything there is to say.

 

The one thing that I do want to point out to you is the inanity of these people who say that Ryan was just oh-so-sensitively doing nothing other than expressing sadness over what happened to his poor, HIV-positive, drug-addicted friend. In the VERY FIRST POST that he wrote, after going on and on about how so many escorts are diseased, fitlhy drug users, he said this:

 

<<I'm very healthy and require my clients to respect my limits in terms of STD safety. We have a great time and I remain STD-free!>>

 

How can anyone deny that Ryan's purpose in writing what he wrote was to say: "Hey - most escorts are filthy and diseased - but not me - I'm HIV-negative and clean. So hire me!"

 

If - as some have absurdly suggested, Ryan was merely venting and expressing sadness over the plight of his friend, why would he insert a crass, blatant advertisement for his escort services right in the middle of his public grieving? If Ryan were truly interested in warning others about the evils of HIV and drug use - rather than being interested in sliming other escorts in order to build himself up - why did he start talking about how clean and pure he is? Nobody who was grieving over a friend or issuing a warning to others would start trumpeting up their own purity.

 

Just as incriminating, this is hardly the first time Ryan has created a thread this way. In fact, the only posts I ever recall seeing him write were ones that had this same theme: "oh, I'm so sad that there are so many filthy, HIV-positive escorts out there - but I'm not!! I'm healthy and fun!!."

 

Each time, I find the message repulsive. To try to use someone's HIV status to demean and criticize them in order to advertise your own services is truly vile. There are a lot of escorts here who, for some reason, think that the best way to attract business is to attack other escorts ("He's such a cheap hustler; I would never do that"). There's an air of desperation and sickness to it.

 

But Ryan's approach is worse by many magnitudes - he masquerades advertisments for himself under the pretense of being concerned about HIV and drug use, and his only message is: "Don't hire all those sick, dirty escorts when you can hire me - I'm clean and HIV-negative!"

 

Maybe his pics are hot or something, but I can't imagine what could cause anyone to deny that this is his intent. Could it be any more transparent. I mean, even Lucky saw it!

 

 

 

>Ultimately, hooboy has settled on the real truth here. Assume

>everyone you have sex with is HIV poz.

[Rick Munroe]

>I'll give you ONE tiny example of a bad apple client: in the

>middle of our play session, which was fun by the way, he

>whispered into my ear: "It's so hot to have a whore sucking

>my..." I stood up, and asked him not to say another word, and

>asked for the money, given that I had been there 10 minutes

>short of an hour and I had done nothing wrong. Quite the

>contrary, this guy got his money's worth, BELIEVE YOU ME. He

>apologized profusely, but that comment went way too far for me

>to reset my interaction with him. He thought that, he said

>that, and I'm outta there...In the nonescorting world, this is

>just how ANYONE self-respecting would respond to such abuse.

 

No, it's not. I have a great amount of self-respect (maybe too much, Derek would say ) and if your client had whispered that to me, it would have gotten my dick even harder and made me suck his dick even more ravenously. Some of us like hot, dirty talk (although, it can also make me giggle if it sounds too Jeff Stryker-ish) and it has nothing to do with hating or loving ourselves. Some of us also don't like to over-analyze sex; for me, as long as everything is safe, I like to be in the moment. Everyone knows I'm in a happy, longtime relationship, but if someone wants to pretend I'm his lover, that's fine with me. And yes, all of this also goes for when I'm not escorting (which I don't actually have much time for these days). I'm not taking away or questioning your right to have been offended by being called a "whore," especially because I don't know what you've gone through in your life to be so sensitive to it, but I don't think you should state so adamantly that this is how "ANYONE self-respecting" would react. It just isn't true.

[Guest DevonSFescort]

>Why are you so angry at

>Lucky, as I didn't see a DAMN thing on this thread from Lucky

>to You that was nasty or threatening?

 

I'm sorry you're having such a difficult time keeping up. What I was referring to was Lucky's attempt to post gossip he'd allegedly heard about me, in addition to gossip he'd supposedly heard about Ryan. This, of course, was after he'd accused Ryan -- who hadn't mentioned ANYONE by name or revealed ANY kind of incriminating info about their identities -- of gossip. It's no surprise to see you defending such blatant hypocrisy.

 

>Lucky aside, I find your latest posts to be offensive to any

>one who would be a potential client, but then again maybe

>you're like Ryan and don't GIVE A FUCK about attracting new

>clients as you are "special" and have a stable of steadies!

 

I have no idea what Ryan's like, but I can assure you that I DON'T give a fuck about offending the dregs of the escort-hiring world, who are so adament in their belief that escorts aren't human beings that they can't even show a little respect when an escort comes on here and laments the fact that friends of his have contracted HIV. People like that are not potential clients of mine, so offending them just saves me the chore of having to avoid their phone calls and delete their emails. I do have my share of regular clients, of whom I am very fond, and I continue to attract new clients -- people who (gasp) actually aren't predisposed to hate escorts.

 

>Your demand for client names is really out of line on this

>site or any site that a client would go to for the purpose of

>hiring an escort.

 

I should have known that would go over your head. You seem constitutionally incapable of noticing even the most obvious double standards.

 

>Enjoy your drink with Ryan, and swap jokes about all the

>pathetic fucking clients who had the misfortune to hire either

>one of you!

 

Sorry to disappoint you again, but I make it a policy not to swap jokes at the expense of my clients, whom, by definition, are people I respect, and will never include either you or Lucky.

[Guest Tampa Yankee]

It had no intention of posting a response to the initial post, content that those reading would make their own assessment. After reading much of the give and take posted as of last night, I felt obliged to weigh in, albiet briefly. I dont bring the personal history to this topic that BG and Lucky do so I cannot blame that for coloring my perception. It is probably true that Ryan's previous posts do color it.

 

With that as prologue, my initial assessment of the top level post was the same as Lucky's and some others. Nothing that I have read through last night has swayed my opinion. I'm not inclined to read any more as the second fifty posts seldom add addtional illumination to the topic.

[Doug69]

>I'm not

>inclined to read any more as the second fifty posts seldom add

>addtional illumination to the topic.

 

As the author of post #66 in this thread, which did nothing other than "weigh in" to repeat what others have already said, you're certainly in a good position to issue this declaration! In fact, you not only issued it, but also illustrated its truth.

[Guest DevonSFescort]

>Since no names were mentioned, as stated by HB himself and

>others, just whose reputation is Lucky being accused of by you

>as attempting of damaging????

 

Hawk, I realize you don't bother reading your own posts before you post them, but just once, for a change of pace, don't you think you should try reading the thread you're posting on?

 

I'm "accusing" Lucky of trying to damage Ryan's reputation by painting him as someone so cold and uncaring that he would start a thread about friends of his who have contracted HIV purely for the sake of self-promotion, then of trying to damage both Ryan's reputation and mine (since I had the audacity to have a different interpretation) by posting gossip he claimed he'd heard about us (which HooBoy deleted -- hence the posts of Lucky's which have been edited by HooBoy).

[Doug69]

>I'm "accusing" Lucky of trying to damage Ryan's reputation by

>painting him as someone so cold and uncaring that he would

>start a thread about friends of his who have contracted HIV

>purely for the sake of self-promotion . . . .

 

Devon - I don't see how you can equate the holding of this viewpoint with a desire to damage Ryan's reputation. Many people don't know Ryan at all and don't care about his reputation one way or the other, but just found what he wrote to be crass, manipulative and transparently self-promoting. Why is it so hard for you to believe that someone may reach that conclusion with some motive other than trying to harm Ryan?

 

Personally, I don't understand at all the notion that Ryan was just oh-so-sensitively doing nothing other than expressing sadness over what happened to his poor, HIV-positive, drug-addicted friend. In the VERY FIRST POST that he wrote, after going on and on about how so many escorts are diseased, fitlhy drug users, he said this:

 

<<I'm very healthy and require my clients to respect my limits in terms of STD safety. We have a great time and I remain STD-free!>>

 

As I just wrote to Lucky: How can anyone deny that Ryan's purpose in writing what he wrote was to say: "Hey - most escorts are filthy and diseased - but not me - I'm HIV-negative and clean. So hire me!"

 

If - as some have absurdly suggested, Ryan was merely venting and expressing sadness over the plight of his friend, why would he insert a crass, blatant advertisement for his escort services right in the middle of his public grieving? If Ryan were truly interested in warning others about the evils of HIV and drug use - rather than being interested in sliming other escorts in order to build himself up - why did he start talking about how clean and pure he is? Nobody who was grieving over a friend or issuing a warning to others would start trumpeting up their own purity.

 

Just as incriminating, this is hardly the first time Ryan has created a thread this way. In fact, the only posts I ever recall seeing him write were ones that had this same theme: "oh, I'm so sad that there are so many filthy, HIV-positive escorts out there - but I'm not!! I'm healthy and fun!!."

 

It's fine if you disagree and something benevolent in Ryan's post. But I don't think it's appropriate to accuse anyone who thinks otherwise of being motivated by some malice towards Ryan. My guess is that most people who have adopted this view don't give a rat's ass about Ryan or his reputation, and have no desire to harm it.

[dannynyc]

There's one thing I find amazing in this string - that is, the number of people who state they can interpret Ryan's meaning in his original message. For the record, I've never met Ryan.

 

I've read several interpretations of what Ryan did or did not mean. But, I do know, from personal experience, written words can be easily misinterpreted. I have often written something (mainly e-mail) and gotten a response based on an interpretation I never intended in my original message.

 

It's one thing to offer opinions about what Ryan may or may not have meant, but, to try to state that "Ryan meant XXXX and this is why . . ." is totally off base. No one knows what was going through Ryan's mind when he wrote the original message. And, for all anyone knows, Ryan may have added something he didn't consiously realize when writting the message.

 

Give the guy a break!

[Guest DevonSFescort]

RE: Lucky stumbled into the truth

 

>The one thing that I do want to point out to you is the

>inanity of these people who say that Ryan was just

>oh-so-sensitively doing nothing other than expressing sadness

>over what happened to his poor, HIV-positive, drug-addicted

>friend. In the VERY FIRST POST that he wrote, after going on

>and on about how so many escorts are diseased, fitlhy drug

>users, he said this:

>

><<I'm very healthy and require my clients to respect my

>limits in terms of STD safety. We have a great time and I

>remain STD-free!>>

 

>How can anyone deny that Ryan's purpose in writing what he

>wrote was to say: "Hey - most escorts are filthy and diseased

>- but not me - I'm HIV-negative and clean. So hire me!"

 

I don't "deny" it, since I don't pretend to know how Ryan thinks, but I'd invite you to consider an alternative explanation. Maybe, since some clients (like people in all sorts of other contexts) associate their service providers by "the company they keep," he wanted to clarify that his choices are distinctly different from that of his friends. Or maybe, desiring to point out that there is another way to conduct oneself as an escort besides barebacking and lying about one's HIV status, he held up the counterexample with which he was most familiar -- his own. Both of these explanations seem a lot more plausible to me than the notion that bringing up HIV is a way to sell sex. Typically the sex industry can't run fast enough away from topics that take people's minds out of an escapist mentality.

 

>Nobody who was grieving over a friend or issuing a warning to >others would start trumpeting up their own purity.

 

Clearly you never saw the episode of the Mary Tyler Moore Show which dealt with the funeral of Chuckles the Clown, or you'd know that people often handle grief in unlikely ways. I can't be sure, but I'd say that getting in touch with Rick "Nick at Night" Munroe is your best bet for getting your hands on a copy of that timeless fable.

 

>To try to use someone's HIV status to demean and criticize them in >order to advertise your own services is truly vile.

 

It sure is. I'm glad Ryan didn't pull a stunt like that. He described his friend as "beautiful and a very sweet person" and then, in the only part of his post I took issue with, let them off the hook too easily for their own responsibility for their actions.

 

>There are a lot of

>escorts here who, for some reason, think that the best way to

>attract business is to attack other escorts ("He's such a

>cheap hustler; I would never do that").

 

That's news to me. I didn't realize there were "a lot" of escorts making posts here of any kind. In fact, I believe you pointed out to me rather recently that there aren't even really a lot of clients here. (By the way, that post of yours cheered me up to no end -- thanks.)

 

>Maybe his pics are hot or something

 

Nope, that can't be it. The only pic he seems to post show him in a loose fitting shirt and the face blurred out. Maybe, just maybe, some of us actually mean what we say and aren't thinking with our cocks every waking minute. Ever consider that possibility?

 

While you're at it, I'd like for you to consider something else. There are people in all walks of life who are such shameless self-promoters that they do it all the time, as instinctively as breathing. Whatever one might think of that particular foible, it does not follow that they don't care about their friends, or that when they lament their friends' seroconversion that they aren't truly upset about it. In fact, such moments, I'd suggest, can be the ones in which they are LEAST attentive to suppressing their less attractive qualities. People can and do say inappropriate things when they are grieving. I find that a lot easier to forgive than petty nit-picking and whole-cloth fabrications like the kind Lucky and others engaged in. If Ryan's a bad escort or has any other flaws you feel need to be publicly denounced, then there are enough opportunities to do so that surely one can bide one's time and hold off on doing it in a thread where he's discussing his friends' unfortunate fate.

 

This may be hard for you to believe, but I hear things all the time about what some of my fellow escorts go through and about what some of my fellow escorts do to themselves and to their clients that sadden and upset me. And I sometimes have to restrain myself from going on precisely the sort of rant Ryan went on in launching this thread. The reason I restrain myself is not because I imagine that I'm missing out on a public relations bonanza, but because I am, due to my diary, enough of a public figure that I have to be extremely careful about even the most casual mentions of escorts I don't identify by name, because there are always clients who will try and figure out which escort I was referring to and will have no hestiation about spreading gossip about whichever escort they've decided I must be talking about. So I can relate to how Ryan might be feeling and I can see why he might vent his sentiments without operating under the same constraints I have to. And if he says something politically incorrect or distasteful in such moments, sue me, but I just don't hold that against him.

 

As for Lucky's posts, when you get a moment, why don't you go back and look at my replies to him, which contain plenty of direct quotes from his posts, and let me know if you still think he's 100% right-on. If so, you should have no difficulty refuting my points, which is more than he was able to manage even the most feeble attempt at doing.

[Guest HOTnySTUDRYAN]

Ryan's FINAL post, he needs to return to REAL life now.

 

>Hey Lucky - as you know, I hate almost everything you write

>and think that most of what you say is dumb or wrong, but you

>are so 100% right on in everything that you are saying in this

>thread that I've been reading it for days and never felt a

>need to post because you said everything there is to say.

>

 

This is my ONE tit-for-tat response...Then I'm truly through with this board....I just can't help myself from responding to this last personal attack. Notice I won't respond with any personal attacks.

 

Well it's interesting. I'm in my head, and you are not, Sir. You have no idea who I am, you've never met me and never spoken to me. And I know my intentions were exactly what i said they were and thus virtually every single thing you wrote, with such frightening confidence, was wrong. I have no doubt you will be unable to consider that, because being wrong about that much won't work for you...way, way too threatening.

 

I have to admit, this board is fascinating to me:

 

a) how seriously people take this, I mean the passion invested on this issue is just...absurd. DId you know we're on a planet with 6 billion people on it? We're in a war? We're fighting for equal rights? My god, channel this passion into helping someone! (I will take my own advice, stop posting on here and get back to my activism)

 

b) how 100% confident different people are about their opposing positions. This isn't a discussion list for most people, it's a place to preach to everyone how right you are and insult, with ever increasing verbal violence, anyone who disagrees with you. The confidence with which you wrongly pronounce my motivations and what is in my heart is truly...fascinating..and frightening. We humans are an interesting lot.

 

 

>The one thing that I do want to point out to you is the

>inanity of these people who say that Ryan was just

>oh-so-sensitively doing nothing other than expressing sadness

>over what happened to his poor, HIV-positive, drug-addicted

>friend. In the VERY FIRST POST that he wrote, after going on

>and on about how so many escorts are diseased, fitlhy drug

>users, he said this:

>

><<I'm very healthy and require my clients to respect my

>limits in terms of STD safety. We have a great time and I

>remain STD-free!>>

 

 

I wrote that sentence because 1) yes indeed I was afraid that when I wrote my post, some people would think I was an STD carrier or make assumptions about me and who I run with. 2) My main point, though, was actually that YOU CAN HAVE FUN AND NOT GET SICK -- with anyone, i was just the example!!!! 3) I was also concerned someone might think I stand 10 feet away from clients during appointments given my emphasis on safety.

 

Was it advertising? No. Was it making sure people don't conclude the wrong things about my service? Sure. Big fucking deal.

 

 

>

>How can anyone deny that Ryan's purpose in writing what he

>wrote was to say: "Hey - most escorts are filthy and diseased

>- but not me - I'm HIV-negative and clean. So hire me!"

 

 

Well since I don't believe that "most escorts are filthy and diseased" and said NOTHING of the kind in anything I wrote, I can deny that was my purpose. It wouldn't benefit me AT ALL to promote that absurdly offensive stereotype. If I ever heard anyone say "most escorts are filthy and diseased" or anything like that, I'd probably blow my temper. I've noticed several regular veteran posters on here treat escorts in a rather extremely disrespectful way -- they have said more nasty things about escorts than I ever have or would.

 

 

>

>If - as some have absurdly suggested, Ryan was merely venting

>and expressing sadness over the plight of his friend, why

>would he insert a crass, blatant advertisement for his escort

>services right in the middle of his public grieving? If Ryan

>were truly interested in warning others about the evils of HIV

>and drug use - rather than being interested in sliming other

>escorts in order to build himself up - why did he start

>talking about how clean and pure he is? Nobody who was

>grieving over a friend or issuing a warning to others would

>start trumpeting up their own purity.

>

 

Your confidence in how others will behave in various circumstances is simply...amazing. Thought about writing a prophecy or going into psychic readings?

 

What escort did I slime?

 

No one suggested I was ONLY "venting and expressing sadness." I was making MANY points, perhaps YOU missed them. Most people didn't. I've gotten one email after another thanking me for my post. Oh but by the way, NO ONE has hired me as a result of my post.

 

AND HOW ABSURD TO SUGGEST I EXPECTED CLIENTS FROM THIS BOARD!!!! You actually believe I would come on here and bring up HIV as an ADVERTISEMENT for myself? hahahaahaha, I think if I were sitting around thinking of the WORST possible way to promote myself, I might think "go on the message boards on Hooboy's site and talk about escorting and STDs and get real intellectual and state controversial opinions"..That would probably win an award for worst advertising attempt this century. And it was NOT such an attempt.

 

The suggestion that it was is just...absurd. I don't NEED any advertisement on this message board. I have many good reviews, and an ad on Rentboy, AOL and MLM, AMONG OTHERS...I get TONS of calls, and don't take most of them. I don't NEED any advertising.

 

I posted on this message board ONCE or TWICE before a long time ago...Guess how many clients I got as a result of that? NONE. There is no notion in my mind AT ALL that posting controversial messages on the message board is a good way to advertise for myself....ahhahaaa .....the more I think about this, the more absurd it gets.

 

Clients who have hired me from the TRAVEL section of the message boards have time and time again told me they don't read anythin else on the message boards. I believe them.

 

Typically my clients are VERY busy, VERY discreet upper class guys who have zero interest in these message boards and don't even know about them!!!!...That's just a fact. I frankly can't remember ever meeting a client who reads the message boards on here!!! Certainly I've never met a client who hired me from that ONE post I wrote many months ago on the message board....

 

I'm absurd? Go look in the mirror.

 

 

>Just as incriminating, this is hardly the first time Ryan has

>created a thread this way. In fact, the only posts I ever

>recall seeing him write were ones that had this same theme:

>"oh, I'm so sad that there are so many filthy, HIV-positive

>escorts out there - but I'm not!! I'm healthy and fun!!."

 

I love the first phrase...it's so revealing...."incriminating"...That speaks volumes about your agenda and your psychology. And reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of what civil discussion on public message boards are all about. Incriminating? My god.....

 

Further, the fact that you remember my other post many months ago was also about HEALTH issues is hardly meaningful because I only wrote ONE OTHER thread, ONE TIME -- maybe two, I don't recall. The attacks came then too, though not as vicious and completely irrational as this time.

 

And I never said anything remotely close to "filthy escorts are all around"...That's disgusting. I sit here and think about my friend...he isn't filthy...he is a fucking beautiful, amazing person...who has chosen drugs and all kinds of bad stuff, and is DYING. It makes me SICK to my stomach with grief.

 

I see hardly any clients. I'm almost done escorting! I have tons of ads! I get way more calls than I take! I care about my friends! Using this issue as an advertisement? THAT is asburd, nothing less than totally absurd.

 

I can think of 40 topics off the top of my head I could write about on this board to promote myself in more effective ways...HIV and STD discussions would't be on the list. As I said earlier, that could probably win an award for WORST possible way to "promote" yourself by doing that. BUt the point was never to promote myself anyway, I'm already PROMOTED and OVEREXTENDED. And finally once again, I can't imagine clients read this board and decide to hire escorts....ever...so the whole thing is fundamentally absurd.

 

It is just becoming more and more clear that the hate posters are alone...in many ways...and lashing out...it's called downward social comparison in psychology. These posts aren't about me...who the fuck am i? Basically no one here knows me, including HOOBOY who is supposedly protecting me! hahahahahaha, so ridiculous.

 

No this is about unhappy people expecting the worst from others, and especially it seems...from escorts...It's sad. But I suspect that people OUTSIDE this message board and escort world would look at all this and say..."yah, of course, some people have no lives and sit in front of their computer and try and make themselves feel better by hurting others."

 

I was telling a client the other day about this message board and my discussion on it, and he was truly, truly and deeply baffled that such discussions even go on! He just kept saying, "Wait, people go on and on about this stuff and attack you and just go on and on?"

He was blown away...He couldn't fathom that kind of investment of time in such nonsense.

 

But what does he know? He's only in the REAL world where you meet FACE TO FACE with other real people. He apparently hasn't learned the pleasure yet, I guess, of being able to anonymously TRASH escorts (or anyone) you've never met, in a public forum, for NOTHING ...from your little computer in your little hole in who knows where. What an important priority this should be in all good American's lives -- every good American should learn the benefits of downward social comparison and join these message boards and ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK, and hide hide hide behind that computer screen! (yes, this last paragraph was sarcastic)

 

I have noticed that MANY pontential clients have genuine disdain for escorts. I run away from them of course. But isn't it totally odd that those who hate escorts still hire them and want to be "intimate" with them? Ah...now we're getting somewhere....deep resentment...deep resentment that they NEED escorts... and so they hate them...Do I smell some of these people perhaps making posts on this board? i think many people know what I mean and where I'm going with this and I'll just stop right there.

 

>

>Each time, I find the message repulsive. To try to use

>someone's HIV status to demean and criticize them in order to

>advertise your own services is truly vile. There are a lot of

>escorts here who, for some reason, think that the best way to

>attract business is to attack other escorts ("He's such a

>cheap hustler; I would never do that"). There's an air of

>desperation and sickness to it.

>

 

Yah if I did that kind of thing I'd sure agree. But I didn't. Period. Where did I demean my friend? Desperate?

 

If you only knew the circumstances of my life and how it's been changing in the last two years. Desperate? More like...the opposite of desperate. My long-term life goals are moving right along!

 

BUt this is just lies, lies, lies, from a "HOT" "rogue" "whore", right? Ugh.

 

In fact, part of the reason I was WILLING to write my post and am engaging on thes topics is because I actually do NOT need extra clients...and so I'm not too concerned with making sure everything I say is politically correct. Take me or leave me. And there are plenty of people who take me! And again...we have...a BLAST. I had a guy hire me twice this week, 2 hours each night, a great guy...A review from him will follow soon. I asked him to write it, given all the nonsense personal trashing going on against me and other escorts on here.

 

Oh yah I'm just sooooo obsessed and desperate for advertising that I've turned down probably 10 requests from clients to write great reviews about me BECAUSE I like to keep a low profile and BECAUSE escorting is not my life...a few reviews are enough.

 

I wonder if Lucky and Va Hawk and a few other veteran ANONYMOUS haters would mind if we find out who they are and start a review site of them?

 

>But Ryan's approach is worse by many magnitudes - he

>masquerades advertisments for himself under the pretense of

>being concerned about HIV and drug use, and his only message

>is: "Don't hire all those sick, dirty escorts when you can

>hire me - I'm clean and HIV-negative!"

>

>Maybe his pics are hot or something, but I can't imagine what

>could cause anyone to deny that this is his intent. Could it

>be any more transparent. I mean, even Lucky saw it!

>

 

Another way of interpreting this is that you're WRONG because the enternally bitter cynic who hates seemingly everyone agrees with you this time! And you ARE wrong. Sorry. - RYAN

 

p.s. I'd even make any of you hate posters this offer: have dinner with me. Providing you're not truly mentally ill, which I realize is in all sincerity possible, I feel 200% confident you will be forced to rethink all your personal hatred towards me you've spewed. That's how powerful my presentation is, that's how deeply rooted my values are, that's how sure I am of my ability to communicate my integrity and good intentions. I'm a very cool person, with decent old fashioned values and very high ethics. Period. Is that an advertisement? You are DAMN RIGHT IT IS. Goodbye.

 

>

>

>>Ultimately, hooboy has settled on the real truth here.

>Assume

>>everyone you have sex with is HIV poz.

>

[Guest HOTnySTUDRYAN]

A perfect example of a client I hope NEVER tries to hire me.. My values and ethics and views of escorts and escorting are clearly far, far higher than yours. Period.

 

If you think it's my job to "sell my ass to anyone with money" you are NOT my kind of client. And I pity the escort who messes up his screening and ends up with you. Sick.

 

- RYAN

[Guest DevonSFescort]

>As I just wrote to Lucky:

 

I'm familiar with your post. I just replied to it:

 

http://babydb.male4malescorts.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=4&topic_id=66424&sub_topic_id=66426&mesg_id=&page=#66683

 

>It's fine if you disagree and something benevolent in Ryan's

>post. But I don't think it's appropriate to accuse anyone who

>thinks otherwise of being motivated by some malice towards

>Ryan.

 

Not even if they follow up by trying to post gossip they claim to have heard about his escorting, not to mention gossip they claim to have heard about an escort who dared defend him? I guess I'll just have to live with the knowledge that I've run afoul of your sense of propriety. I'll do my best to cope.

 

>My guess is that most people who have adopted this view

>don't give a rat's ass about Ryan

 

We agree on that.