Help with what's appropriate when flying an escort in...

[MiamiLooker]

Somewhat relatedly: this fall I was arranging with an escort I knew reasonably well to spend nearly a week with me in Palm Springs this winter.

 

I guess you know him a little better now...

[Amoco]

hey TUOT:

 

In answer to your questions:

 

1. I provided options to give the escort a chance to handle the trip the way that was most comfortable for him, within my stated boundaries, i.e., if you do other business, you pay the airfare. If you're coming just for me, I'll pay the airfare. Now you may not agree with that conceptually, but t is my appointment and I believe those are reasonable expectations. He could accept either option,or refuse both and say no to the whole deal.

 

2. Forgive me, but how do offering these two options encourage entitled behavior?

 

3. And in regard to why we always have to make something more of things, I would suggest that not enough is made of any of these protocol and etiquette questions. Frequently, what the escort says goes, and though many are "professional", many are not and it is helpful to clients and escorts to hear other perspectives. My situation has been resolved with a an apology and acknowledgement of the problematic situation by the escort. Others have volunteered that it changed their perspectives. And still others, think the whole thing is ridiculous.

[MiamiLooker]

My situation has been resolved with a an apology and acknowledgement of the problematic situation by the escort.

 

Does that mean you're still seeing him, and he's agreed to adhere to option 1?

[Amoco]

MiamiLooker:

 

Yes. He apologized and took full responsibility for agreeing to #1 and doing #2. I plan to proceed with the appointment because this is someone I know fairly well and he ultimately said all of the right stuff plus committing to discussing it further when he arrives - I still don't see the "misunderstanding". Is it possible that he's not sincere and is responding only because of the risk of losing a decent client? Absolutely it's possible, but Im pretty sure his living doesn't depend on seeing me, and I haven't heard too many apologies from escorts regarding these kinds of issues, so I'm comfortable trusting it and will see how it goes. I would certainly understand it if someone were to say that once someone blatantly lies to them, they're done. It's not my style, but I get it. Happy to keep you posted on the progression and I will add that posting this in a way that didn't embarrass him but also opened his eyes a bit, was helpful. In addition, everybody took the thread seriously and nobody started that crazy vitriol that comes when something unpopular is raised. This was a win-win-win for everyone involved...

[TUOT89]

hey TUOT:

 

In answer to your questions:

 

1. The boundaries are not built-in to the options. I would have fully expected the escort to recognize that he could take Option#1 (with airfare) and get away with putting an ad on Rentboy. (Sadly, that's just human nature.)

 

2. The options encouraged entitled behavior because there was no real difference between them. As I explained above, any escort with a penchant for selfish behavior could see how he could turn option #1 into option #2. If there is a loophole, the self-entitled will find it.

 

3. I am happy that you were able to resolve the matter with the escort. I am not so shocked as you are by the "unprofessional" behavior. It is not that I think as someone posted above that escorts are unprincipled. It is just that I acknowledge that they are not like me and therefore don't expect them to understand and meet my needs for order.

 

For instance, if I am traveling to another city, I would prefer to make an appointment more than a month in advance. Some escorts will not make an appointment with you that far in advance. My cardiologist makes appointments with me a year in advance. Go figure.

 

If I tell my pool contractor that I would like to work with a separate landscape designer, he defers to my wishes. I've had escorts place conditions, sight unseen, on partners in a group scene. I used to take umbrage at that because it is not what a "professional" would do.

 

Back to the pool contractor, I know he has other clients and that he is working on their projects at the same time. He did not tell me this. But it really didn't matter to me because his references attested to his ability to finish on time. On the other hand, when I first started hiring, it used to bother me if I saw an escort I had hired for that evening on some hook-up site. I had to learn how to be a better customer. I had to recognize I wasn't hiring these guys because they were loyal (to me), but because they were horndogs. (That makes me wonder, would it bother you if you paid for the airfare and saw the escort on Scruff?)

 

Mind you, I am not saying that what the escort says goes in all circumstances. I've certainly had my fair share of etiquette quandaries. My advice to you would be this --- if you want order, if you want the airfare/expenses to buy you virtual exclusivity, then pay for the weekend and not two consecutive overnights. If it is peace of mind you want from these encounters, it is going to cost more.

[Amoco]

Going to try to respond to your statements:

 

1. I think the boundaries were built in, I.e., if you want to see other clients, you pay for the airfare,( which he is now doing). Conversely, if you want to minimize your financial risk, than no seeing other clients. Can't have it both ways.

2. Honestly, I'm not sure what you mean when you say there was no difference between the options - one was for just seeing me, and the other was for seeing me and others. I agree that anyone can lie, cheat or steal whenever they want to, but that's not what this is about. Obviously there are always loopholes to take advantage of.

3. I was shocked that we agreed to terms in the morning and that the ad was up in the afternoon. That people do deceptive things is hardly shocking. That this particular guy did remains a concern but is not consistent with my previous experiences with him.

4. I've experienced some of the same stuff when trying to book an spot. in advance. Some escorts are organized, some are not. More importantly, some see the advance appts as being risky, but once a guy knows you it should go easier. And I agree that this is more stylistic than substantive. HOWEVER,

choosing option #1 and doing #2 is much more problematic and a more substantive issue rather than stylistic. It was conscious and purposeful.

5. Lastly, let me clarify something that you may have misunderstood: when I offered the escort the two options, it was not out of a desire for exclusivity. It was solely to reduce my hard costs in the same way that he wanted to reduce his. I couldn't care less if he's on a hook up site on his own time, but if he's working a new market as a result of me flying him in, I believe I should benefit from that in the form of not paying his airfare. Instead, I become an anchor that minimizes his risk of not being hired, and in exchange, I get the airfare paid for and he'll get two extra days in my town and two extra days further south. I think that's a win-win. More important story, it's what we agreed to, and that trumps everything.

 

Now, if you're asking me what happened I would have to say that I'm not sure but suspect the ad was a blind query that bore some quick fruit. As a result, when I discovered it, he copped to it immediately and suddenly the trip morphed into two additional days, for a total of 4 days after he's through with me. Still don't feel good about the subterfuge, but at least I've minimized my exposure and don't feel taken advantage of. It remains to be seen if we can get through the rest of it. No think we can, but it will require that he be scrupulously honest and understand that that's a given going forward...

[big-n-tall]

Hey Amoco,

 

I understand your feelings on the matter, but I think you're thinking way too much about it. So much so that if you go through with the weekend, this will be on your mind while you're with the escort. You won't have fun. And that's no fun.

 

I had a similar situation with a highly regarded escort. We talked about the travel situation before we met. At first, he was only going to stay with me for a weekend and then go home. Later he decided once he left me, he would stay a week longer and see other clients. He thought it wouldn't be fair to have to pay for a roundtrip ticket. I only had to pay for his travel to come see me.

 

The bonus, in my situation, is the escort got enough requests to meet other clients. When I gave him his fee, he would not accept the extra cash to pay his travel fee.

[namchebaz]

MiamiLooker:

 

Yes. He apologized and took full responsibility for agreeing to #1 and doing #2. I plan to proceed with the appointment because this is someone I know fairly well and he ultimately said all of the right stuff plus committing to discussing it further when he arrives...This was a win-win-win for everyone involved...

 

That is exactly the outcome I hoped you'd have, and I'm happy for you. ENJOY!

[Steven_Draker]

I understand your feelings on the matter, but I think you're thinking way too much about it. So much so that if you go through with the weekend, this will be on your mind while you're with the escort. You won't have fun. And that's no fun.

 

I had the exact same thought.

[Amoco]

Hah! I'm going to tell you the truth...this whole thing was coincident with me having a molar removed early yesterday and being given this oxycodone to prophylactily deal with the pain. So not only did this forced recovery period provide a lot of time with my ipad, it also provided chemicals that elicited this intense disinhibition - it was the perfect storm of opportunity and inclination, and it took over for 36 hours until I realized that it was a bit over the top. Don't want to deny the accuracy of the seeds that spawned this, but it's time to calm down. I do appreciate the quality of responses though...A

[jimboivyo]

Please forgive my directness in this reply, but, you actually expected a man who sells his body for a living to be principled in his dealings with you???

 

Admin note: Personal attack removed

[armadillo]

JimBen, you are back with more vitriol!

You didn't learn from your spanking and penalty box time from Daddy? Or your shaming on the Other Site?

Marshal on in your ardent support of... oh hold it...that escort in Texas... His name escapes me.

[Juan Vancouver]

Dear Amoco,

 

I was going to try to write a dry response without any politeness given that in the past you have repeatedly confused my tone with being hypocritical. "So many big hugs and sly digs at the same time" I think you wrote, and by digs I think you meant me disagreeing with you. But as I put the fingers on the keyboard I realized that is not my style. It is a pity if you have misunderstood our interactions, but I can't do nothing but strive for more clarity. Who knows? What with English not being my language it is possible that I am not communicating efficiently.

 

I am really happy to read that you have recovered form your molar extraction! And with a little help by Oxycodone to top it up. A good friend who suffers back pain says Oxycodone can be really nice. =)

 

I was very touched by your coming here and accepting in public that maybe your state of mind might have pushed things a bit further than in normal circumstances, but of course it's obvious that the core of the issue is still important and valid to you. It takes balls to accept when one has erred somehow, which brings me to that about which I wanted to write.

 

I have no problem at all having people disagree with me. Actually I quite like it, as it gives room for new and improved ideas to form. The only issue that I ever have in a discussion of this nature is when someone tergiversates or misquotes something that I said, implying that I believe or feel about an issue in exactly the opposite way I feel. For this reason I would like to ask. How did you get this conclusion?

 

I do agree though that when Juan pushes this notion of "walking very softly" when raising very straightforward issues.

 

For almost ten years I have come here to encourage clients to be as clear as they can when dealing with an escort. Absolute directness, letting the escort know who you are, what you want and what is it that you expect is the only tool you have in your advantage.

 

I would love to know which of my writings made you come to that conclusion, because if I indeed wrote that, I must have also been under the influence. And if possible, I would like direct quotes, not paraphrasing or interpretations.

 

Let me recap briefly what it is that I believe:

 

I believe we are all expected to honour our agreements. I believe the escort client interaction can only thrive when both parts understand the terms of the agreement and honour them without exception. I believe communication HAS to be direct and clear, with no subterfuge nor euphemisms. DO NOT THREAD LIGHTLY when raising any issue. I think so far we agree on these points.

 

Here are the points in which we disagree. There is absolutely no problem with disagreeing. Doesn't mean you are right or wrong, it just means that we might not be compatible, which is great... there are many wonderful escorts who will gladly see you and understand your interaction the same way you do. There are many clients who share my point of view. We can only have a fulfilling experience with those with whom we are compatible.

 

You say escorts advertise and sell activities, I don't, I exclusively charge for my time. That is the only legal thing to do, and no, it is not semantics. For this reason if an escort advertises kissing, according to you he must, regardless of the circumstances. Whereas I bring my readiness and experience to the session and will make the most fun out of it, respecting our humanity and boundaries, and I think this to you means I am wishy washy. I am not. When asked I clearly state "I love to kiss, and I will kiss the shit out of you if we are both able and prepared." I still provide my professional service regardless. It works for some, it doesn't work for some others. And that is fine for me. I am not trying to be vague about it, which is why I urge you to be direct when you talk to an escort. If a client tells me on the phone "If you don't do the things I want you to do I will send you without pay" I would very happily tell this client we are not a match. It saves everyone a terrible waste of time.

 

I am not judging you. I don't think my approach is better than yours, they are just different. I would love to know if this clarifies my point, and also how is it that you got to the conclusion that I want people to thread lightly. Otherwise, I sincerely extend an olive branch. I do not have a bone in this fight, I just want to make sure you don't either.

 

I hope you accept this message for what it is, and I hope I was able to express with clarity how even if different, I think our points of view are equally valid.

 

Here's wishing you a full recovery!

[Amoco]

Juan:

 

Thanks for your get well wishes - I'm doing just fine and free of chemical influence, at least for the time being.

 

And though your offer of an "olive branch" is noted, it really is unnecessary as I have never felt judged or abused by anything you've said or done. I'm a big boy and believe us both capable of disagreeing, even strongly, and doing so in a responsible way. Your barbs are more condescending than effectively biting, and are almost always in the service of elevating your perspective by coyly devaluing others in that ingratiating way. Any sentence that begins with "It is a pity...." just can't be taken too seriously as a genuine attempt to raise the level of discourse.

 

But I do very much appreciate the effort you put into this response, and though I applaud your acknowledgement that you actually "like" when people disagree with you, I will only say that I was neither surprised nor offended by your admission. That said, I am reluctant to subject the rest of the Forum to what amounts to us beating our dead horse. Writing this thread and receiving the plethora of responses, especially yours, has been both elucidating and empowering and I don't want to dilute the experience by publicly getting caught up in the reeds.

 

Instead, I'm going to forward my response to you privately and am happy to address all of the issues that you've raised - including your nterpretation of my view of your blatant hypocrisy and provocative style. If either of us feel that there would be some value in sharing any of the results with others, we are certainly free to do so, but I would ask that this not be used as a marketing tool.

 

Lastly, I love that word "tergiversate" - bravo on using it in a sentence! I think you should have no worries about whether your language skills are interfering with your ability to communicate effectively - I'm not misunderstanding you, I just disagree with your perspective. So when you end your first post with "...if you want to continue the relationship, kindly, gently, respectfully talk to him.", and then deny knowledge of why I would read that as you suggesting the need to "walk softly" when raising these straightforward questions, then we have a larger problem. But again, The problem isn't one of clarity. Trust me, you've been crystal clear.

 

Amoco

[MiamiLooker]

Juan:

 

Thanks for your get well wishes - I'm doing just fine and free of chemical influence, at least for the time being.

 

And though your offer of an "olive branch" is noted, it really is unnecessary as I have never felt judged or abused by anything you've said or done. I'm a big boy and believe us both capable of disagreeing, even strongly, and doing so in a responsible way. Your barbs are more condescending than effectively biting, and are almost always in the service of elevating your perspective by coyly devaluing others in that ingratiating way. Any sentence that begins with "It is a pity...." just can't be taken too seriously as a genuine attempt to raise the level of discourse.

 

But I do very much appreciate the effort you put into this response, and though I applaud your acknowledgement that you actually "like" when people disagree with you, I will only say that I was neither surprised nor offended by your admission. That said, I am reluctant to subject the rest of the Forum to what amounts to us beating our dead horse. Writing this thread and receiving the plethora of responses, especially yours, has been both elucidating and empowering and I don't want to dilute the experience by publicly getting caught up in the reeds.

 

Instead, I'm going to forward my response to you privately and am happy to address all of the issues that you've raised - including your nterpretation of my view of your blatant hypocrisy and provocative style. If either of us feel that there would be some value in sharing any of the results with others, we are certainly free to do so, but I would ask that this not be used as a marketing tool.

 

Lastly, I love that word "tergiversate" - bravo on using it in a sentence! I think you should have no worries about whether your language skills are interfering with your ability to communicate effectively - I'm not misunderstanding you, I just disagree with your perspective. So when you end your first post with "...if you want to continue the relationship, kindly, gently, respectfully talk to him.", and then deny knowledge of why I would read that as you suggesting the need to "walk softly" when raising these straightforward questions, then we have a larger problem. But again, The problem isn't one of clarity. Trust me, you've been crystal clear.

 

Amoco

 

+1

Someone is full of shit

[down_to_business]

+2

[robberbaron4u]

As a matter of fact, I have never "pimped" an underage escort on this board, nor would I undertake to do so. Thereby, I take umbrage in your allegation, and, having made that allegation, I fail to understand why you have not been placed in "time-out" mode by the moderators.

[BaronArtz]

As a matter of fact, I have never "pimped" an underage escort on this board, nor would I undertake to do so. Thereby, I take umbrage in your allegation, and, having made that allegation, I fail to understand why you have not been placed in "time-out" mode by the moderators.

 

I was thinking the same thing. I cannot possibly recall robberbaron4u mentioning, directly or indirectly, anything about interactions with minors. Furthermore, in my private correspondence with Robber, he has been always courteous and professional. I think highly of him and hope that the moderators on this board will look into this incident with some priority.

[bigvalboy]

I was thinking the same thing. I cannot possibly recall robberbaron4u mentioning, directly or indirectly, anything about interactions with minors. Furthermore, in my private correspondence with Robber, he has been always courteous and professional. I think highly of him and hope that the moderators on this board will look into this incident with some priority.

 

Thank you BaronArtz. As one who is fresh off a time-out, I was hesitant to say anything for fear of a backlash from admin, but I too was bothered by this unfortunate accusation. Perhaps there will be a follow-up. And I ditto BaronArtz sentiments in regards to Robber.

[MiamiLooker]

As a matter of fact, I have never "pimped" an underage escort on this board, nor would I undertake to do so. Thereby, I take umbrage in your allegation, and, having made that allegation, I fail to understand why you have not been placed in "time-out" mode by the moderators.

 

Robber, I think you have to click the alert (the small triangle in the lower left of the offending post) in order to notify the moderators.

[marylander1940]

In a few weeks I'll have some time to myself at my home in the southeast and I'm planning on flying in one of my favorite guys from NYC. When we began discussing this, I offered two separate options based on my past experiences and what I've learned and observed through the Forum.

 

Option #1 was flying down to be with me exclusively, at my place, for two extended overnights, in which case I would pay his fee, a tip, airfare and all associated expenses.

 

Option #2 was to use the two extended overnights with me as an "anchor" and to see other clients when our time together was done. In this case, I would cover the fee plus a tip and expenses associated with our time together, but airfare and other expenses would be on him.

 

The escort chose Option#1, and I agreed to cover the airfare...this morning I noted that he had an ad up to see other clients for the days after we were planning to be together. It won't interfere with my plans but it is NOT the option he chose.

 

My original proposal makes sense to me as in option #1 he is only coming down to see me and it would make sense for me to bear the expenses. In option #2, however, he is coming down to work - not only with me, but with others, as well. As a result, it seems fair that he should pick up some of the cost of doing business himself. I'm not here to provide access to other markets, but if it makes sense for both of us, then no problem. But getting me to cover expenses and then seeing other clients, is not my view of fairness.

 

Now others might say that he's really coming down to see you, so why do you care if he picks up a couple of extras here and there? I've asked myself the same question - especially since this is someone I hire often and really like and respect as both a person and escort. What I come up with is that it breeches the boundaries in the same way it would if I were to capitalize on our friendship and ask for a "freebie". At the very least, I think it should have been discussed directly with me as I offered either option and was happy to serve as the anchor rather than be exclusive, but he chose the exclusive to minimize expenses by passing them to me. I, of course, would like to minimize my expenses, too, so if he's seeing someone else, shouldn't the expense f airfare be his.

 

Interested in serious and thoughtful answers. No name calling or accusations - this, again, is someone I really respect so my interest is not in over-reacting to him, but rather to clarify my own thinking. I realize that the real money these days is in travel, but I think the way escorts travel is important. Some guys won't mind if the escort sees others on his dime.

 

he should have told you after being with you he'll stay in town for a few days on his own, nothing wrong with it, you were his "anchor" a guarantee of a good trip. Maybe he should give you a free 1 hour at his hotel room after the 2 overnights are over and while he has no other clients lined up.

[Juan Vancouver]

Amoco,

 

You say an olive branch is not necessary and that we are capable of disagreeing in a "responsible" way. But right then you go on accusing me of putting people down for my own advantage. Your whole response is condescending, accusatory, deliberately incriminating but conveniently vague.

 

You condescendingly applaud my using a word in a sentence and vehemently state you are not misunderstanding me or bending what I say to fit your purposes, but right then you go and do it, "quoting me" entirely out of context, forcing your own flawed interpretation of my whole post. Or when you twist my saying that I welcome differing points of view into making it sound that I am pugnacious and like a brawl.

 

You have accused me of not wanting clear boundaries but you fail to mention publicly that I repeatedly declined setting up a session with you precisely because my boundaries were way too clear for you and you wanted them to be more nebulous. I politely told you I thought we were not a good match, and sincerely wished you would find a fun guy with whom you shared a common view of the escorting interaction. Then you have taken to -ever so politely- (In the way you project unto me) undermine my credibility and try to convince people that this conversation is a marketing tool.

 

By all means email me whatever you want. I just want you to know that I will stop biting on these constant provocations. You are not here to look for input on your situation, you are here to hear a mechanical choir of agreement. In your defence, you were candid enough to ask for opinions that made you feel you were right.

 

I love my work and I put my heart in it. Because of that, I must only meet with people with whom I feel my heart, my vulnerability, my humanity will be respected. I don't write this to mean that you are evil, what this means is that the way you understand the escort interaction is antithetical to the way I do, and it is my responsibility as the professional to asses that and make sure we both don't waste our time.

 

You would not enjoy meeting me.

 

If this is twisted to be an -ever so shrew!- marketing tool, by all means, you are welcome to say that.

 

Of course you will find this wrong. You would want me to do your bidding. We will just have to agree that we disagree, or we will just have to stop communicating.

 

I sincerely wish you will find a plethora of wonderful escorts that will share and appreciate your style. I know I have been blessed to find many men with whom I share mine. In the future, whenever you ask for opinions I will abstain from participating; I must remember you are looking for agreement and confirmation, not differing points of view.

 

All the best,

 

Juan Bruno

[armadillo]

Quote Originally Posted by robberbaron4u View Post

Please forgive my directness in this reply, but, you actually expected a man who sells his body for a living to be principled in his dealings with you???

 

 

Admin note: Personal attack removed[/color]

 

 

Oh JimBen, you didn't learn from your Holiday spanking and Time-out, did you? Now strap-on a Rolex Submariner and have a good sulk with Smendez1942.

[Amoco]

I won't negotiate with terrorists, Juan.

 

Your willingness to share events that took place briefly between us almost two and one year ago, respectively, is malicious and professionally despicable. Further, you well know that those interactions have nothing whatsoever to do with the content of either this thread, or Jon's "kissing" thread from earlier in the week. Lest anybody think that Juan's transparent accusations are appropriate, feel free to PM me and I'll be happy to share the specifics with you.

 

I expected Juan's reaction to the narcissistic injuries, but had no idea that he was capable of this. For what it's worth, and in case of any confusion, my last contact with Juan was a very brief email in April (I think) of last year. His implication that my motivation in confronting him stems from "sour grapes", flies in the face of the facts - HE chose to participate in my posted thread - other than that, I have had zero contact of any sort with him. When he didn't like the responses he stimulated, he chose to fight dirty. I'm still a big boy, Juan, and as you well know, I've dealt with a lot more significant stuff than being compromised by you. In regard to finding decent escorts, I can assure you that that has not been difficult, so I must either be a decent guy or escorts will do anything for the money - your choice.

 

If it helps, though, I'm completely comfortable acknowledging my previous desire to be with you sexually - you are not only beautiful, but your need for adulation is so extreme that I'm sure it would translate into an extraordinary performance in bed.

[Juan Vancouver]

Amoco,

 

Please be noted that I haven't disclosed anything personal or "compromising" as you are accusing me of. I just want to make clear that in private you say something different to your public discourse.

 

You are still the only one who throws insults, accusations and even psychological assessments.

 

I am sorry this has ended this way. I am not fighting, I am trying to reach a point of agreement or at least some peace but I see now that this is impossible.

 

As of this moment, I exit this conversation. The floor is yours. Feel free to say whatever you may want.

 

Respectfully.

 

Juan