Are faggots allowed to call themselves faggots?

[Guy Fawkes]

In another thread somebody referred to themselves with a derogatory name and was taken to task on it. It occurred to me: "Does that mean I'm not allowed to refer to myself" as: "a Fat Haole Faggot?"

 

Are several of my friends going to have to stop being called: "Fag Hags?" I certainly don't want to be the one to have to tell them. They might take their lipstick off and beat the crap out of me. I'll still love them, lipstick or not.

 

http://rlv.zcache.com/palin_bush_a_lipstick_lesbian_tank_top_tshirt-p235110800394083116qn8v_400.jpg

[Frequentflier]

I wouldn't correct someone who uses the words fag or faggot about themselves because that's their right. While I was growing up the words fag and faggot were always used as insults. Generally hurled by guys who, at least we thought, were straight at others they thought were gay or simply wanted to insult. If someone called me a fag or faggot today, there is no context I'd find it acceptable in. So beyond that, and this is just me, I don't understand why someone needs to refer to themselves as a fag or faggot versus gay or some other description. I have friends that are gay and we don't see the need or desire to add an adjective when referring to each other. They all have first names and if we talk about someone who is gay, we simply say they are gay. If someone used those words about themselves, my old mind would just think "why are they putting themselves down" and why should other people respect them and their preferences when they use (at least from my life experiences) a word that's derogatory about themselves. Maybe some gays get to drinking and acting silly and then they use those words but I can't relate to it nor understand what's fun about doing so. So it might be the crowd I hang out with. I don't use racial slurs, I say someone is overweight vs. fat, etc. I feel the same way about someone who is a minority using a racial slur about themselves - why should whites who use those slurs (and shouldn't) which are generally believed to be derogatory not think "well, now its ok". Alright, I'm out. Probably said too much already

[corndog]

There is a line of thinking that believes that we can "reclaim" words have been used against us, and some would argue that when we call each other "faggot" in that way, we're neutralizing the derogatory usage. I think that has genuinely happened with the word "queer" which used have a very derogatory, insulting connotation, but is currently used with great pride -- usually with a militant activist pro-gay connotation.

 

Words are just words. It's the intent behind them that really matters. Having said that, I think it is only appropriate to use the word "faggot" when you're 100% sure that it will be taken the right way. If you think it might be misconstrued, you should use safer terminology, like "butt pirate." ;-)

 

Seriously, though, in my circle of friends, it isn't uncommon to hear gay people referred to as "sodomites" with full irony intended.

[Guy Fawkes]

I guess it completely depends on context:

 

http://gaygamer.net/images/gaypiratet.jpg

[Epigonos]

I love words and find it fascinating and interesting to follow how some of them have evolved. A gay party today certainly is NOT the same as a gay party in the 50’s when I was a kid. There is a very famous, very popular, very old restaurant in the Soho section of London called the Gay Hussar. The Hussar for whom the placed was named was most likely not gay in the today’s definition of the word. When I was a kid to be called a cock sucker was a MAJOR insult. Nowadays if somebody were to refer to me as a cock sucker my reaction would likely be – ok so what and besides I’m damn good at it.

 

I have always believed that whoever created the clique “sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me” was one of the greatest fools to ever walk the face of the earth. Sticks and stones can only kill some poor soul once while words may make him wish he were dead a thousand times. Sorry if that sounds just a little too preachy

[leigh.bess.toad]

Words can only hurt you if you let them hurt you. Yup, I'm a faggot. A proud one. And if anyone has a problem with me calling myself that, tough shit. But like Epigonos, if someone were to call me a cocksucker, my reply would be, "Yes I am, and I'm the best damned cocksucker you will ever meet, but you are such an asshole you will never get to find out how good". Someone calls me a faggot? "Damn right I am. What in the hell are you?" I won't let that word be used against me. I believe what Corndog mentioned is quite right:

 

There is a line of thinking that believes that we can "reclaim" words have been used against us, and some would argue that when we call each other "faggot" in that way, we're neutralizing the derogatory usage.

 

I will NOT call anyone else faggot because that is an individual choice if they are comfortable with it. I am speaking about myself only.

 

But yesterday, I think it was funny. I am on another message board dealing with weight loss, fitness, nutrition and the like. And I have become friends with people all around the world actually. And I may be more out as a gay man there than I am here (if that is possible). However, yesterday, one of my British friends, a 30'ish woman, talked about her night out, how much fun she had but how she regretted "blowing a fag for the first time in years". Of course, she didn't mean it in our sense -- she meant smoke a cigarette. But she knew I was there and immediately added in jest "not a gay man, I mean a cigarette". I told her not to worry, I knew what she meant. But I also told her, and every other one of my friends there (and her friends too) that "she would be no where near as good at blowing a fag as I was".

 

Me being out and loud about being gay, being a faggot if you will, there has hit home with me about what Harvey Milk told us so many years ago, in a way it never had before. My very best friend there is a early 40s married woman school teacher from Iowa. I've become her "gay best friend". But a week or two ago, she surprised me. She has always been so accepting of me. That's why when she wrote me and said "Before I first met you, I was an ultraconservative who didn't get it. Now I do". Because of issues in her life, she has removed all of her male friends from her friend list. Except one. Me. Her gay friend. So an ultraconservative woman who 3 months ago had never so much as had a conversation with a gay person before now has become an ally. And this faggot has done that.

 

And if anyone has a problem with me assuming ownership of that word, of not letting that word hurt me, well here's a quarter. Call somebody who cares.

 

http://ed101.bu.edu/StudentDoc/Archives/ED101fa09/sapple/images/quarter.jpg

[tom1980]

This thread reminded me of the YouTube video I saw a few months ago featuring Christopher Daniels wearing his muscle shirt with "FAGGOT" printed on the front and explaining how he was doing his part to reclaim the word. Hearing him explain why it's his favorite shirt and how he responds to people who call him out on it gave me a new perspective. Here's the link for anyone interested:

[doya66]

I've heard all about reclaiming words, and understand that some see power in doing so, but have to say that I don't get it. I can't reclaim what I never claimed. Why recycle somebody else's used pejorative? The term is, and has always been, inappropriate to use to refer to people. Maybe I'm conservative, but my mother taught me better than that. I try to avoid that word just as I avoid the "N" word. Neither term is worth reclaiming- get rid of them. If others want to use faggot as a term of endearment, that's their right, but don't expect me to join in. Butt pirate, by contrast, is so silly that it doesn't bother me at all. But I also have never been called one- maybe I'm not butch enough...

 

Am I being inconsistent here? Or is Faggot just too toxic to try to save?

[Bosguy]

I've heard all about reclaiming words, and understand that some see power in doing so, but have to say that I don't get it. I can't reclaim what I never claimed. Why recycle somebody else's used pejorative? The term is, and has always been, inappropriate to use to refer to people. Maybe I'm conservative, but my mother taught me better than that. I try to avoid that word just as I avoid the "N" word. Neither term is worth reclaiming- get rid of them. If others want to use faggot as a term of endearment, that's their right, but don't expect me to join in. Butt pirate, by contrast, is so silly that it doesn't bother me at all. But I also have never been called one- maybe I'm not butch enough...

 

Am I being inconsistent here? Or is Faggot just too toxic to try to save?

 

Personally I have always and still do dislike using the term "faggot". Growing up in a world quite different from now, I feared being referred to as a faggot and I would never refer to anyone as a faggot. I guess old memories are very difficult to forget

 

Boston Bill

[leigh.bess.toad]

I've heard all about reclaiming words, and understand that some see power in doing so, but have to say that I don't get it. I can't reclaim what I never claimed. Why recycle somebody else's used pejorative? The term is, and has always been, inappropriate to use to refer to people. Maybe I'm conservative, but my mother taught me better than that. I try to avoid that word just as I avoid the "N" word. Neither term is worth reclaiming- get rid of them. If others want to use faggot as a term of endearment, that's their right, but don't expect me to join in. Butt pirate, by contrast, is so silly that it doesn't bother me at all. But I also have never been called one- maybe I'm not butch enough...

 

Am I being inconsistent here? Or is Faggot just too toxic to try to save?

 

If I reclaim it, if I take ownership of it, I take the power of others away to use it against me. It minimizes them. When they would try to use it to hurt, but instead see that I am proud of being a faggot they have no where to turn. It's taking the power away from the bully.

 

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/go-ahead-call-them-faggots.jpg

[+ sam.fitzpatrick]

I've heard all about reclaiming words, and understand that some see power in doing so, but have to say that I don't get it. I can't reclaim what I never claimed. Why recycle somebody else's used pejorative? The term is, and has always been, inappropriate to use to refer to people. Maybe I'm conservative, but my mother taught me better than that. I try to avoid that word just as I avoid the "N" word. Neither term is worth reclaiming- get rid of them.

 

+1

[bigvalboy]

If I reclaim it, if I take ownership of it, I take the power of others away to use it against me. It minimizes them. When they would try to use it to hurt, but instead see that I am proud of being a faggot they have no where to turn. It's taking the power away from the bully.

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/go-ahead-call-them-faggots.jpg

 

LBT, you are spot on. In my view it is no different than when white's called black people the "N" word....Somewhere back in my youth, I remember blacks began to embrace the word, and for many, certainly not Ms. "O" but for a large segment of the black population, they began to use the "N" word as a greeting, almost affectionately. That in my view, disarms those trying to use the word in a derogatory fashion. It takes their power away. Of course great debate as ensued over whether it is somehow OK for blacks to say it to each other, while it is taboo when a white person says it to another black person. For me it is all in the intent.

 

I personally don't care what some anonymous person or some person that I have a "zero" connection with thinks of me. As my friend used to say all the time, "What you think of me is none of my business"

 

Interesting thread.....

[leigh.bess.toad]

BVB -- like I said, I wouldn't go so far as to casually call anyone else a faggot, even a good friend, even in jest. This is me, calling myself one, taking that word out of the hands of a potential bully to hurt and injure. It isn't so much about reclaiming the word. It's about defusing the word, minimizing it, making it ineffective and useless. Turning it on its head and in a sense, using that power against the person who is trying to hurt with it. That is the purpose of taking ownership of the word.

 

But you are right. In the end, it is all in the intent.

[Epigonos]

I was once, a number of years ago, accused of being so broad minded that my brains were failing out. However, considering the degree of political correctness that we are experiencing today even I am coming to believe we have and are going overboard to the silly extreme. No polite, educated person has EVER uses words like faggot, spic, ******, bitch, or chink in public conversations. But when discussing the offensive nature of these words I find it absolutely absurd that we have to write and say things like the N-word. The word is not being hurled offensively at someone it is being used in a discussion of offensive terms. There has also been strong pressure from various groups to ban Mark Twain’s Tom Sawyer, from being used in public schools, because he used the word “******” throughout the book.

 

At times I just wonder where all this silliness is going and where it will end. Instead of using the word “bitch”, which many women find offense, maybe we should use the B-word. But NO that won’t work because what will use to replace the word “bastard”. Maybe then we will have to speak in terms of the BI-word, for “bitch” and the BA-word, for “bastard”.

 

This nonsense could and just might go on forever. As I see it being unable to use various words in legitimate non personally directed contexts amounts to a form of censorship that I find frightening. When is this society going to get over its current tendency to carry EVERYTHING to the absolute extreme?

 

P.S. Isn't it interesting that even in the context of this discussion this site doesn't allow the word ******. Damn I guess I should have used the N-word even when discussing its usage in a semi-academic manner. Now my question is if the word ****** is banned why are the equally offensive terms spic, chink, bitch or faggot allowed?

[bigvalboy]

I was once, a number of years ago, accused of being so broad minded that my brains were failing out. However, considering the degree of political correctness that we are experiencing today even I am coming to believe we have and are going overboard to the silly extreme. No polite, educated person has EVER uses words like faggot, spic, ******, bitch, or chink in public conversations. But when discussing the offensive nature of these words I find it absolutely absurd that we have to write and say things like the N-word. The word is not being hurled offensively at someone it is being used in a discussion of offensive terms. There has also been strong pressure from various groups to ban Mark Twain’s Tom Sawyer, from being used in public schools, because he used the word “******” throughout the book.

 

At times I just wonder where all this silliness is going and where it will end. Instead of using the word “bitch”, which many women find offense, maybe we should use the B-word. But NO that won’t work because what will use to replace the word “bastard”. Maybe then we will have to speak in terms of the BI-word, for “bitch” and the BA-word, for “bastard”.

 

This nonsense could and just might go on forever. As I see it being unable to use various words in legitimate non personally directed contexts amounts to a form of censorship that I find frightening. When is this society going to get over its current tendency to carry EVERYTHING to the absolute extreme?

 

P.S. Isn't it interesting that even in the context of this discussion this site doesn't allow the word ******. Damn I guess I should have used the N-word even when discussing its usage in a semi-academic manner. Now my question is if the word ****** is banned why are the equally offensive terms spic, chink, bitch or faggot allowed?

 

 

Exactly....Which comes back to the original question from the OP. Privately among close friends, I see no harm.

[Guy Fawkes]

Hooboy started that one; I just agreed with him for rather stange reasons.

 

P.S. Isn't it interesting that even in the context of this discussion this site doesn't allow the word ******. Damn I guess I should have used the N-word even when discussing its usage in a semi-academic manner. Now my question is if the word ****** is banned why are the equally offensive terms spic, chink, bitch or faggot allowed?

[Epigonos]

Damnit to hell Daddy just how am I supposed to argue (dispute) a sentence like "I just agreed with him for rather strange reasons". I love it!!!!!

[Guy Fawkes]

...

http://www.vfr.net/~tdurkin/grin1.jpg

 

Damnit to hell Daddy just how am I supposed to argue (dispute) a sentence like "I just agreed with him for rather strange reasons". I love it!!!!!

[instudiocity]

It all just sounds like a double standard.

 

Those who feel oppression by the use of the word by non-members of the oppressed group also feel the liberty to employ the word themselves, even as they seek to restrict its use by non members of the oppressed group.

 

I've never heard anything like, this word is abusive and harmful when used by the majority but a special useful term for the minority.

[jimboivyo]

It all just sounds like a double standard.

 

Those who feel oppression by the use of the word by non-members of the oppressed group also feel the liberty to employ the word themselves, even as they seek to restrict its use by non members of the oppressed group.

 

I've never heard anything like, this word is abusive and harmful when used by the majority but a special useful term for the minority.

 

this is the right response I think

 

some folks here say faggot openly, but then type out 'the N word.' that says it all right there. No special rules just because you're gay, black, jewish, white, brown, blue, whatever.words are words and all carry power. use them wisely

[bigvalboy]

this is the right response I think

 

some folks here say faggot openly, but then type out 'the N word.' that says it all right there. No special rules just because you're gay, black, jewish, white, brown, blue, whatever.words are words and all carry power. use them wisely

 

Actually that is an unfair assessment....Folks here who say "faggot" openly do, because the site allows that. Where the site does not allow us to type out the "N" word. Just to clear that little point up. I know because several of us have tried. I for one will only type out ("N") in reference to the actually word, when the site does not allow the actually word used. Daddy has said that it is from the Hooboy days, and for reasons of his own, he has left it in place.

[Steven_Draker]

There is a line of thinking that believes that we can "reclaim" words have been used against us, and some would argue that when we call each other "faggot" in that way, we're neutralizing the derogatory usage.

 

In the same spirit I used the word "hustler" and "Eurotrash" in a recent thread to describe myself with irony in a self-mocking fashion. I'm not sure whether it got through the way it was intended. Sarcasm doesn't work very well in the written form ... does it?

 

If you think it might be misconstrued, you should use safer terminology, like "butt pirate." ;-)

 

I guess it completely depends on context:

 

Right on!

 

[video=youtube;M-pSnz75TdQ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=M-pSnz75TdQ

[Decatur Guy]

Using the n-word as an example, we see where "diffusing" that word has gotten us: Not very far and very confused -- and oftentimes "confused" stubbornly and deliberately.

 

I can't tell you how many times I've argued with a fellow white person that just because some black people use the variation of the n-word that ends in ga (vs. er) amongst themselves doesn't mean a white person is free to employ it as well. And then said white people whine about "their rights" being taken away as if societal dictates to stay away from one word is somehow an egregious burden to shoulder that's equal to racism, segregation and a legacy of slavery.

 

I see the same thing happening with "faggot" if its usage becomes popularized amongst gay people. Sooner or later, haters and bashers will start using it and then claim they just didn't understand, that they were just joking, etc., when they use it to stir up trouble or worse. And they'll just say: "He called himself that first." Or "They were saying it to each other."

[Guy Fawkes]

The haters and bashers have been using both words for far longer than we've been around. Both words have well defined meanings that predate the gold 'old USA.

 

I don't mind "Faggot" because I know what it means and it reminds me that even today being a minority is not necessarily safe, I don't mind "Queer" because I know what it means and I fit the definition. I celebrate "Gay" because it's a word that we as a group adopted long ago even tho it's original meaning was completely different.

 

My point is that a person, any person should be allowed to describe themselves however they want to, and not be taken to task for it. This form of "Political Correctness" is pure and simple censorship.

 

Think about it for a bit, if I had been "Politically Correct" in early 2000, This forum would not exist. Because then it talked about many things that were not "Politically Correct" for the time, and even today continues to raise a few eyebrows.

 

I see the same thing happening with "faggot" if its usage becomes popularized amongst gay people. Sooner or later, haters and bashers will start using it and then claim they just didn't understand, that they were just joking, etc., when they use it to stir up trouble or worse. And they'll just say: "He called himself that first." Or "They were saying it to each other."

[Decatur Guy]

I actually agree with you -- people can call themselves what they wish. That right does supersede the other issues involved.

 

And I also think members of a group have a right to call themselves something without that corresponding right being transferred to outsiders.

 

All I'm saying is that decision isn't made in vacuum and that decision does carry consequences. We've seen it played out with the n-word.

 

When I hear black people use the n-word amongst themselves, I don't take as a license to use it myself, but I frankly think less of them if they do. I think of them as lacking class and education and its use is a signal they don't respect themselves either. If they don't respect themselves, then why should I respect them? And that's a self-imposed burden they'll have to live with because I am not going to be the only person that reacts that way.

 

So they may think it's cute, funny, diffusing, empowering or whatever -- and again, it's totally their right as individuals and members of a group -- but it has consequences and not all of them are good. How others perceive us does make a difference.

 

I would transfer the same lessons to the word faggot.

 

So yes, other gay people may call themselves that all they wish -- I may not like it but I can't stop it and won't try.

 

But I do not wish to be called that -- not in jest by other gay people and definitely not in derision by anyone else. The only way I know how to get that across is to begin with myself.