A Weighty Issue

[Guy Fawkes]

What's wrong with this picture?

 

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRRxVao2k1jMX5Tw0KCOwpGpOIcxB0jG%20%20TRCeIIxZhos48sOn6tLUzbQdcph

 

In my opinion he has as much right to say: "No" to you; As you have the right to say: "No" to him. This is one area where we're just going to have to agree to disagree with each other.

 

However, I still like you... A lot!

 

[video=youtube;BysLCCLdWKA]

[bigvalboy]

No one is arguing his right to say "NO" to me. For me the issue was, if by him saying "NO" to me based solely on my race, does that make him a racist? But I very much appreciate the post, and the video was excellent and on point. As always I respect your input, and it would appear that perhaps we are not as far a part on this as one would think ;)

 

Cheers Daddy,

 

Bob

[jjkrkwood]

I agree that lack of sexual attraction does not necessarily mean racism, and our individual tastes are complex things.

 

I do think that the best escorts can transcend their own personal preferences.

 

Perhaps, but WHY should they ?

[jjkrkwood]

Whether you ALL are going to admit it or not, you ALL are making VERY specific choices when you hire, so all this "lets agree to disagree" crap is Bullshit.. It always amazes when people try to turn a simple issue like "attraction" into a racial one... It IS what it IS, "I AM NOT ATTRACTED TO YOU"... and whatever the underlying reason is, thats the persons own business and noone has any right to label that person a racist because he chooses not to pay a specific type of person for sex. You can live in your glass house, but stop throwing stones... You are all guilty of rejecting certain people !

[seeker630]

Perhaps, but WHY should they ?

 

Because they're professionals.

 

It IS a choice - and I think those who make those choices are the best escorts. And yes, that's my opinion.

 

I have always thought that a good escort can give pleasure and at least the appearance of enjoyment to all clients, regardless of appearance (age, body type, race/ethnicity. etc.)

 

And I think that the great escorts are actually able to genuinely enjoy sex with all clients, regardless of experience.

[seeker630]

Whether you ALL are going to admit it or not, you ALL are making VERY specific choices when you hire, so all this "lets agree to disagree" crap is Bullshit.. It always amazes when people try to turn a simple issue like "attraction" into a racial one... It IS what it IS, "I AM NOT ATTRACTED TO YOU"... and whatever the underlying reason is, thats the persons own business and noone has any right to label that person a racist because he chooses not to pay a specific type of person for sex. You can live in your glass house, but stop throwing stones... You are all guilty of rejecting certain people !

 

Attraction is NOT a simple issue - the REASONS are complex. And SOMETIMES, racism IS one of the reasons. I'm not saying that BVB's escort is a racist - I can't tell from the limited information provided.

[bigvalboy]

Attraction is NOT a simple issue - the REASONS are complex. And SOMETIMES, racism IS one of the reasons.

 

Well Seeker, I like Daddy's comment, and I like your analysis as well...simple and to the point. In the end, I think I still disagree with you but our differences would have be ironed out over a nice dinner and a nice bottle of wine. Until such time, I thank you for your thoughts, and hope that the problems that you mentioned the other day, that you were going through, are seeing some positive results.

 

Cheers,

 

BVB

[bigvalboy]

I respectfully disagree. When anyone uses another's race as the basis for not taking them on as a client, that person is a racist. This is far from saying that every person has to be attracted to every other person. It is just what it is.

 

Thanks d2b...I think in the end, your simple thought in closing is pretty much how I feel also..thanks for posting on this. Hope you are good.

[seeker630]

Well Seeker, I like Daddy's comment, and I like your analysis as well...simple and to the point. In the end, I think I still disagree with you but our differences would have be ironed out over a nice dinner and a nice bottle of wine. Until such time, I thank you for your thoughts, and hope that the problems that you mentioned the other day, that you were going through, are seeing some positive results.

 

Cheers,

 

BVB

 

Thanks, BVB. And I'm not sure how much we would disagree - and with regard to the incident which precipitated this latest discussion...I do not presume to pass judgment on YOUR conclusion, since I was not a involved.

[jjkrkwood]

SInce this thread has already wandered away from the OP's topic...

You've tried this with an average guy, and he believed you? After spending time in the shower and the bathroom with other guys, don't they know where they stand in the penis length distribution?

 

)

 

FF - i forgot to men men are not only gullible, BUT stupid, and when it comes to their penis size, there is no rationale. They all think they are HUNG....

[jjkrkwood]

I respectfully disagree. When anyone uses another's race as the basis for not taking them on as a client, that person is a racist. This is far from saying that every person has to be attracted to every other person. It is just what it is.

 

That is an absolutely silly statement. Their profession HERE is the understandable reason for rejection since a BIG part of the success of THIS service depends on attraction, and if the escort has no attraction to certain ethnicities, he would be doing the client a disservice in taking his money. however, on the other hand if we are talking about a realtor, lawyer, car mechanic, or even a gardener who refuses service based on race, of course my feeling is quite different. You cant make a blanket statement here, things must be viewed in context of the Service.

[Lookin]

I think BVB said in an earlier post that it's impossible to tell that he is Black, so I don't see how attraction would come into play. It was only a single word that queered the deal, so to speak. http://www.maleescortreview.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif

 

What the escort did, through his own ignorance, was miss an appointment with a kind, engaged, and thoughtful client, thereby shooting himself in the foot. That's the problem with stereotyping: you miss out on a lot of good stuff needlessly.

 

 

PS: Have to say, I'm impressed by the respect folks here are showing one another as differences of opinion are worked out. A pleasure to see. http://www.maleescortreview.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/thumbsup.png

[bigvalboy]

I think BVB said in an earlier post that it's impossible to tell that he is Black, so I don't see how attraction would come into play. It was only a single word that queered the deal, so to speak.

 

Thanks Lookin for the comment...I obviously agree with you...LOL L

 

 

 

PS: Have to say, I'm impressed by the respect folks here are showing one another as differences of opinion are worked out. A pleasure to see.

 

 

Now this is funny, because I was just private messaging Seeker and saying the same thing. When all of this blew up yesterday, it took a lot of restraint for me not to just burn up the message forum with pages of a hate filled rant that would have turned into something that was rather unfortunate and ugly for all parties concerned.

 

I immediately received an email from someone who was kinda laughing and in an effort to diffuse the situation, he told me to relax first and that I should go for a walk before I went crazy on, as he said, "All these bitches"...it did make me laugh and I took his advice, and now 24 hours later. "Look what a difference a day makes" I'm happy, Daddy's happy and all of this has been put into perspective.

 

As ALWAYS Lookin...YOU ARE THE BEST!!!!

Cheers,

 

BVB

[jjkrkwood]

What the escort did, through his own ignorance, was miss an appointment with a kind, engaged, and thoughtful client, thereby shooting himself in the foot.

 

Or NOT ! We are speaking about BVB here,,,,, Smooches BVB

[Strafe13]

This is the kind of situation where I think it would really behoove BVB to inform us of the identity of this particular escort. As a client of color, I would certainly want to avoid such an offensive and embarassing interaction with this supposed professional. Plus, I imagine there woud be plenty of other clients who would prefer not to patronize him, the same way they would not do so to any other business, establishment, and the like who refused to engage in business with clients solely on the basis of their race, or other identity-based characteristic. Seriously, this is the kind of information that we should be sharing on this forum. Protecting the reputation of the so-called professional who blatantly practices racial discrimination should not be the foremost concern, IMHO.

[jjkrkwood]

This is the kind of situation where I think it would really behoove BVB to inform us of the identity of this particular escort. As a client of color, I would certainly want to avoid such an offensive and embarassing interaction with this supposed professional. Plus, I imagine there woud be plenty of other clients who would prefer not to patronize him, the same way they would not do so to any other business, establishment, and the like who refused to engage in business with clients solely on the basis of their race, or other identity-based characteristic. Seriously, this is the kind of information that we should be sharing on this forum. Protecting the reputation of the so-called professional who blatantly practices racial discrimination should not be the foremost concern, IMHO.

 

There was absolutely NO evidence that he was "discriminating". He just PREFERS not to have sex with Black men. I am 100% sure there are certain types that YOU prefer not to have sex with. Does that make YOU prejudice and racist ? And should YOU be outted ???? Get a grip here before you jump to conclusions and label people..

[josephga]

sexual preference has absolutely nothing too do with racism. If a person only wants to have sex with a limited race that's not racism that preference. Like

jjkrkwood said this can't be compared to a dr lawyer, or car mechanic refusing service.

[down_to_business]

sexual preference has absolutely nothing too do with racism. If a person only wants to have sex with a limited race that's not racism that preference. Like

jjkrkwood said this can't be compared to a dr lawyer, or car mechanic refusing service.

 

There was absolutely NO evidence that he was "discriminating". He just PREFERS not to have sex with Black men. I am 100% sure there are certain types that YOU prefer not to have sex with. Does that make YOU prejudice and racist ? And should YOU be outted ???? Get a grip here before you jump to conclusions and label people..

 

What is so hard for you to understand here. If you don't want to have sex with someone because you don't find them attractive, thats a preference. If you don't want to have sex with someone just because they are black or you define every black man as unattractive just because they are black then you are exhibiting racist behavior. When you can't see anything past a line on the color bar, then you are racist. That doesn't mean you need to find every person attractive or have sex with every person. This doesn't just apply to escorts either, this applies to everyone.

 

Take actor Jessie Williams, for example, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ISOfIxQqMlg/TOQN5BFtSTI/AAAAAAAAABc/1PNYlfQimg4/s1600/jesse-williams.jpg . If you don't find him attractive because you don't like his build or his eyes or whatever so be it (but I think your crazy). If you don't find him attractive simply because you don't like the color of his skin, then you should take a personal assessment and search deep down for the reason why. You don't find an individual attractive, great, you aren't attracted to Jesse Williams. If you are unattracted to Jesse Williams just because he is black and you believe all black people are unattractive just because they are black, you are a racist.

 

And telling the poster to get a grip, seriously?? You are not black (and neither am I) and neither of us have a clue what it is to be black or what the poster has to go through in life. If sharing someone else's experence will save this poster from going through any grief or predjudice in his search for companionship, then he should be so warned.

[jjkrkwood]

What is so hard for you to understand here. If you don't want to have sex with someone because you don't find them attractive, thats a preference. If you don't want to have sex with someone just because they are black or you define every black man as unattractive just because they are black then you are exhibiting racist behavior. When you can't see anything past a line on the color bar, then you are racist. That doesn't mean you need to find every person attractive or have sex with every person. This doesn't just apply to escorts either, this applies to everyone.

 

Take actor Jessie Williams, for example, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ISOfIxQqMlg/TOQN5BFtSTI/AAAAAAAAABc/1PNYlfQimg4/s1600/jesse-williams.jpg . If you don't find him attractive because you don't like his build or his eyes or whatever so be it (but I think your crazy). If you don't find him attractive simply because you don't like the color of his skin, then you should take a personal assessment and search deep down for the reason why. You don't find an individual attractive, great, you aren't attracted to Jesse Williams. If you are unattracted to Jesse Williams just because he is black and you believe all black people are unattractive just because they are black, you are a racist.

 

And telling the poster to get a grip, seriously?? You are not black (and neither am I) and neither of us have a clue what it is to be black or what the poster has to go through in life. If sharing someone else's experence will save this poster from going through any grief or predjudice in his search for companionship, then he should be so warned.

 

DTB, you are ridiculous, and stop trying to be Martin Luther King. If you walk into a bar and start cruising for a guy to hit on, and you pass over all the blondes, then you pass over all the overweight guys, then you pass over the guys you suspect are over 40. Then you look around and pass over the black men. Oops, NOW your a racist. Are you kidding me ? It is guys like you that spout all this ridiculous rhetoric that cause the racial tension in our country. NO, I am not black, but even a black man can see your statement lacks intelligence and understanding. You are no more an expert on race relations than I. You can have a best black friend, spend every waking minute with them, invite them to your home BUT not be sexually attracted to them. Oops theres that racist thing again !... Better throw them out....... Noone is saying here that because they are black they are unnattractive. How foolish a statement. They are just not what someone wants to lie down with and FUCK....They are NOT turned on by them. PERIOD. EVERYONE makes these choices everyday. What a joke !

[seeker630]

DTB, you are ridiculous, and stop trying to be Martin Luther King. If you walk into a bar and start cruising for a guy to hit on, and you pass over all the blondes, then you pass over all the overweight guys, then you pass over the guys you suspect are over 40. Then you look around and pass over the black men. Oops, NOW your a racist. Are you kidding me ? It is guys like you that spout all this ridiculous rhetoric that cause the racial tension in our country. NO, I am not black, but even a black man can see your statement lacks intelligence and understanding. You are no more an expert on race relations than I. You can have a best black friend, spend every waking minute with them, invite them to your home BUT not be sexually attracted to them. Oops theres that racist thing again !... Better throw them out....... Noone is saying here that because they are black they are unnattractive. How foolish a statement. They are just not what someone wants to lie down with and FUCK....They are NOT turned on by them. PERIOD. EVERYONE makes these choices everyday. What a joke !

 

I confess that I am still struggling with the preference vs racism thing - if you are not sexually attracted to black men, does that automatically make you a racist? if you are not attracted to octogenarians, does that make you an ageist? I'm not sexually attracted to women, but I'm not a misogynist. I guess MY definition of racism means regarding all members of a race as inferior BECAUSE of their race.

 

At the same time...it does bother me that the escort in question would apparently reject a client strictly on the basis of race, without ever even meeting him. That seems to me to be about more than preference (because I really don't believe he's rejecting ALL clients he's not attracted to.)

[bigvalboy]

What is so hard for you to understand here. If you don't want to have sex with someone because you don't find them attractive, thats a preference. If you don't want to have sex with someone just because they are black or you define every black man as unattractive just because they are black then you are exhibiting racist behavior. When you can't see anything past a line on the color bar, then you are racist. That doesn't mean you need to find every person attractive or have sex with every person. This doesn't just apply to escorts either, this applies to everyone.

 

Take actor Jessie Williams, for example, http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ISOfIxQqMlg/TOQN5BFtSTI/AAAAAAAAABc/1PNYlfQimg4/s1600/jesse-williams.jpg . If you don't find him attractive because you don't like his build or his eyes or whatever so be it (but I think your crazy). If you don't find him attractive simply because you don't like the color of his skin, then you should take a personal assessment and search deep down for the reason why. You don't find an individual attractive, great, you aren't attracted to Jesse Williams. If you are unattracted to Jesse Williams just because he is black and you believe all black people are unattractive just because they are black, you are a racist.

 

And telling the poster to get a grip, seriously?? You are not black (and neither am I) and neither of us have a clue what it is to be black or what the poster has to go through in life. If sharing someone else's experience will save this poster from going through any grief or predjudice in his search for companionship, then he should be so warned.

 

I am sad that when I asked the moderators to lock this thread yesterday, they choose not to. I knew full well that nothing but anger would develop from this thread. Though I respect Daddy and Deej and coop, I am at a loss as to why such a thread would be allowed to go on, when clearly so many others have been locked for far lesser reasons.

 

DTB and Strafe, I thank you for your support, but I think that it is impossible to try and explain a complicated subject as this to those who have not experienced hatred daily in there life. Many who are not of color cannot under any circumstance even minutely begin to understand the difficulty in dealing with the world on a day to day basis.

 

I long ago stopped trying to reason with the unreasonable and stopped trying to educate those that will not see that which is so sadly obvious to so many millions. That is why so many Americans have been polarized by issues of race. Those that do not understand, twist arguments to their own benefit. It is convenient and easy. But the world is slowing changing I think for the best. Time will eventually discard those that cannot and will not see the hatred for what it is. You can't stop the "New World" that is coming. Many will be dragged kicking and screaming, as they exit stage left.

 

 

Perhaps NOW Daddy, or Deej or Coop or somebody will see that this really needs to end. OR perhaps not... Cheers, BVB

[Strafe13]

JJ, what you seem to be missing here, is that BVB's story was not about a simple hookup. We all talk on this site that escorts see themselves (and we should treat them) as professionals. That may be a pure fiction that we all tell ourselves to legitimate what society tells us is not legitimate behavior. But so long as we ascribe to the view that these darling men that we so adore are indeed professionals at their craft, then it is not unreasonable to expect them to act accordingly. It is not professional to refuse to do business with customers because of their race. Period. I thought this country reached a moral and social consensus on that point several decades ago.

 

You keep trying to couch this discussion in terms of simple sexual preference, but I don't think that concept really applies (at least not in its purest form) in this context. Escorts routinely have to perform in romantic and sexual interactions with clients, the vast majority of whom, I suspect, they are not actually attracted to on a superficial level, or at least would not be in their private lives. So to the extent that this escort isn't typically attracted to men of African descent (be they mixed like BVB and myself, or more "conventionally" black like others) is completely irrelevant, since I'm sure he engages with all kinds of clients to whom he has little or no superficial attraction. But with this guy, there is something about black people's race that so disgusts or repells him, or at least so impairs his ability to conduct himself professionally, that he cannot overlook the perceived melanin content in a client's skin, yet he can marshal his powers to overlook other clients' characteristics that he does not find attractive. If race is that important to him that it impedes his ability to do his job..., then I don't know what to say, other than to conclude that this guy certainly has racial prejudices and he acts on them in his professional life.

 

Moreover, I can't believe that you could utter the following statement with a straight face (pardon the pun): "There was absolutely NO evidence that he was 'discriminating'." His action certainly fits the dictionary definition of racial discrimination -- I mean, the guy quite literally admitted to BVB through his crass comment that race was the sole criterion upon which he would refuse to provide his professional services. He literally discriminates upon the basis of race. I seriously don't know how you could conclude otherwise. Perhaps what you would do better to argue is to concede that this is, of course, literal racial discrimination, which is generally repugnant to the values of a modern and progressive society (that we hope & profess to be) but in certain spheres, such as personal sexual or romantic relationships, such action is acceptable, where it otherwise would not be so. Irrespective of the merits of such a position, my position is that when it comes to someone's private sexual or romantic life, I really could care less whether someone wants to "bless me" with their presence in my life. But if you're going to hold yourself out as a professional, then you should know what that entails and act accordingly. Have the courage of your convictions -- if you want to racially discriminate against certain clients, then say so. And the same way that this escort can choose not to sell his services to black clients, said clients, and any other clients disgusted by such behavior, should have the right to be fully informed so as not to do business with him.

 

And please do try to be understanding of how humiliating it can be to face racial discrimination when trying to partake in the same kinds of activities as other people. It's rare nowadays for people to face such direct, in-your-face, discrimination (it is mostly behind closed doors, and/or institutional). I'm truly saddened that it is still practiced so blatantly and unashamedly in this particular field, since I truly believe sex work to be a noble profession at heart. But when you are mistreated in this way, on the basis of something that strikes at the core of a central identity characteristic such as race, it is very, very, very different from just not being successful in scoring a phone number at the bar because someone doesn't like blondes, per your trivial examples. Being offended is the absolute normal and appropriate reaction to such behavior. There is nothing wrong with trying to avoid that by knowing which escorts to avoid.

 

DTB, you are ridiculous, and stop trying to be Martin Luther King. If you walk into a bar and start cruising for a guy to hit on, and you pass over all the blondes, then you pass over all the overweight guys, then you pass over the guys you suspect are over 40. Then you look around and pass over the black men. Oops, NOW your a racist. Are you kidding me ? It is guys like you that spout all this ridiculous rhetoric that cause the racial tension in our country. NO, I am not black, but even a black man can see your statement lacks intelligence and understanding. You are no more an expert on race relations than I. You can have a best black friend, spend every waking minute with them, invite them to your home BUT not be sexually attracted to them. Oops theres that racist thing again !... Better throw them out....... Noone is saying here that because they are black they are unnattractive. How foolish a statement. They are just not what someone wants to lie down with and FUCK....They are NOT turned on by them. PERIOD. EVERYONE makes these choices everyday. What a joke !

[bigvalboy]

I confess that I am still struggling with the preference vs racism thing - if you are not sexually attracted to black men, does that automatically make you a racist? if you are not attracted to octogenarians, does that make you an ageist? I'm not sexually attracted to women, but I'm not a misogynist. I guess MY definition of racism means regarding all members of a race as inferior BECAUSE of their race.

 

At the same time...it does bother me that the escort in question would apparently reject a client strictly on the basis of race, without ever even meeting him. That seems to me to be about more than preference (because I really don't believe he's rejecting ALL clients he's not attracted to.)

 

Seek... it is late here and I am exhausted from the day. I understand your struggle with the issue. For me it is very clear, but I can understand certainly you wrestling with both sides of the argument. I respect the difficulty in trying to sort this out and I respect your honesty and calm demeanor that you and others have taken in the process. I cannot and will not respond to seemingly hate full rants from those that have decided that there is only one way of looking at this very complicated issue. It is not all Black and White (forgive the pun) but it is an issue that is difficult to comprehend even for those that are the most open minded amomg us. this is not the sort of issue nor is it the time in our history or benefit to anyone to take the posture of "Stand your Ground"

 

Thank you for your honesty and for responding in manner that encourages dialog.

 

Be well, BVB

[seeker630]

I am sad that when I asked the moderators to lock this thread yesterday, and they choose not to, I knew full well that nothing but anger would develop from this thread. Though I respect Daddy and Deej and coop, I am at a loss as to why such a thread would be allowed to go on, when clearly so many others have been locked for far lesser reasons.

 

DTB and Strafe, I thank you for your support, but I think that it is impossible to try and explain a complicated subject as this to those who have not experienced hatred daily in there life. Many who are not of color cannot under any circumstance even minutely begin to understand the difficulty in dealing with the world on a day to day basis.

 

I long ago stopped trying to reason with the unreasonable and stopped trying to educate those that will not see that which is so sadly obvious to so many millions. That is why so many Americans have been polarized by issues of race. Those that do not understand, twist arguments to their own benefit. It is convenient and easy. But the world is slowing changing I think for the best. Time will eventually discard those that cannot and will not see the hatred for what it is. You can't stop the "New World" that is coming. Many will be dragged kicking and screaming, as they exit stage left.

 

 

Perhaps NOW Daddy, or Deej or Coop or somebody will see that this really needs to end. OR perhaps not...But I can choose not to play here. Cheers, BVB

 

BVB - do you think gays experience less daily hatred than racial or ethnic groups?

[maxwellissmart]

I confess that I am still struggling with the preference vs racism thing - if you are not sexually attracted to black men, does that automatically make you a racist? if you are not attracted to octogenarians, does that make you an ageist? I'm not sexually attracted to women, but I'm not a misogynist. I guess MY definition of racism means regarding all members of a race as inferior BECAUSE of their race.

 

At the same time...it does bother me that the escort in question would apparently reject a client strictly on the basis of race, without ever even meeting him. That seems to me to be about more than preference (because I really don't believe he's rejecting ALL clients he's not attracted to.)

 

Isn't being attracted to black men specifically because they are black also a fulfillment of the term "racist?" There are plenty of clients out there like that, who like black guys, Asian guys and the like—and use escorting as a means for making those sorts of fantasies a reality.

 

(meanwhile, my favorite black client REFUSES to call me, the bastard. I thought I was going to have one the other day and he flaked out on me, dammit.)