Toyota is Dead

[Luv2play]

Well, perhaps not completely but the news today that the owner of a 2008 Prius had an acceleration problem on the San Diego Freeway that is well documented AFTER he was told his car had no problem is a BIG problem for Toyota.

 

For years I thought Toyota had boring but safe and reliable cars. Today they are neither boring, safe or reliable and that is a BIG problem for Toyota. The car in question accelerated to 90mph after the driver attempted to overtake a car on the freeway. Luckily he had a cellphone and a state trouper who responded to his call and was able to guide him to a safe, but totally harrowing, stop. (It is striking to think that it was on the same freeway where a state trouper and his family lost their lives in a Toyota Lexus that brought this whole problem to light!).

 

Toyota has steadfastly maintained that their acceleration problem is not based on the electronic system but that is increasingly becoming a dubious claim. The man in today's incident said that he tried to pry the accelerator while holding onto the steering wheel with one hand but to no avail.

 

Toyota brands encompass a lot of territory, not unlike GM of yesteryear. The Prius is a particular darling of the Hollywood gliteratti set, such as Stephen Spielberg. Do you think the Spielbergs will be venturing out on the San Diego Freeway in their Prius anytime soon? I don't think so.

 

Personally I have never had a Toyota but I did have a Nissan (it was called Datsun 280Z then) that I bought in 1975 and reluctantly gave away in 1991 after having driven it for 16 carefree years in Canada and Europe, in conditions that were exacting temperature and speed wise (hit 210km/hr on the French autoroutes but I was young then!). So I recognize the ability of the Japanese to make a good car. Somewhere they have gone off the rails at Toyota.

 

Personally, I don't like the ignition systems of the new Japanese cars, with the push button that is obviously electronically programmed. I recently rented a Japanese car that had this system, no key required, and while in concept it is a neat idea, it sort of loses its appeal when you realize you can't take the key out of the ignition to stop your motor when the accelerator is racing out of control.

 

I read about an elderly lady in British Columbia the other day who crashed her Toyota Echo a few years ago when it inexplicitly accelerated and she lost control and hit a tree. She lost her license, her car was a writeoff, had to buy a new one when the insurance company claimed she was senile and shouldn't have been driving. She had a home-confined husband and could no longer drive to the store to do shopping for him for two years until she finally got her license back. In short, her life became Hell.

 

Today she is part of a class-action lawsuit that is awaiting a judge's decision to certify their case. I hope it goes ahead.

[EXPAT]

I wouldn't touch a Toyota now with a ten foot pole. I am familiar with the Japanese business culture of saving face and I'm sure there are many more things yet to come out that have been hidden over the years.

[josephga]

No way in hell would i set foot in a Toyota

[Guest OCBeachbody]

Well it could be that people are just focusing on Toyota (any foreign car) so the big three can look good in the media. I know back in the 80's when my dad had a car there were some major problems with a couple of the car lines, but they never got this much media attention.

 

I seriously doubt that there is such a wide spread problem like they are claiming and in the end when you look at the figures, only a small percentage of "incidents" overall. Some can also be attributed to user error, media hype, road condition or even some other mechanical failure?

 

Because so far it is strange, only in the US so far have these problems occurred. Even Nightline's report two weeks ago was rather sketchy. I remember myself that I was in an odd accident as a kid in which a pillow got sucked up under our car (a volvo) and the car speed at and twirled around it was scary.

[Lookin]

It's interesting to compare Audi's woes in the eighties with Toyota's today.

 

Audi had six years of recalls, hundreds of injuries, and six deaths associated with 'unintended acceleration'. They insisted it was driver error that caused the problems.

 

60 Minutes did a big feature on them and showed an Audi accelerating by itself. (It turned out that 60 Minutes faked the 'runaway Audi' footage, and took a lot of crap for it. But the damage to Audi was done.)

 

Audi's sales dropped more than eighty percent, and stayed there for years. I remember seeing a beautiful Audi 5000 sitting on a used car lot for a few thousand bucks. I wish I'd have bought it.

 

While Audi maintained to the end that all the so-called unintended accelerations were the driver's fault, they did make some changes to the cars. They moved the gas pedal farther away from the brake pedal. And they made the driver push down on the brake before he could shift out of 'park'. That bit of fallout continues today.

 

The Audi brand was nowhere near as big as Toyota, but it was owned by Volkswagen, which was very big. I don't recall the Volkswagen name getting drug into the Audi news at all. Toyota, on the other hand, is right in the middle of the bull's eye. I doubt a single one of their brands is untarnished.

 

I think Charlie was smart to buy one, and the thought has crossed my mind as well. If I could find a good deal on a Prius, I think I'd consider bumping up my life insurance and taking the plunge.

[kjun]

All that has been said in this thread is true but I never hear anything about this in Thailand. There are literally thousands of Toyotas on the roads here. They outnumber all other brands by at least 5 to 1. Their sales are strong throughout Asia, so I don't think this will cripple them as much as Audi was at that time.

[Luv2play]

Some posters have raised valid points that need consideration. For instance, why have the greatest number of of these cases happened in the US? It is not true that none have been reported in Canada and elsewhere, I mentioned the lady in British Columbia and she is part of a class action so that indicates a more widespread incidence. The fact is that Canada is only one tenth the size of the American market.

 

As for overseas' markets, it is possible the parts used in those cars are different. For instance the accelerator pedals in the US Toyotas were manufactured in the US and were not used in Toyotas in Japan. As for the electronics I don't know if these were single sourced or not and whether the same systems were used in all models of Toyotas.

 

I know that for years Mercedes manufactured a line of cars for the European market that were used as taxis that had no-where the degree of sophistication of the export models. I don't know if Toyoya does the same for developing country markets such as Thailand where people don't have the disposible income they do in America.

 

In Japan, there have been cases of unintended acceleration but the Japanese authorities were slow to respond. It is not irrelevant that Toyota is their largest manufacturing corporation (not unlike GM in the US in years past when one of their presidents crowed that what was good for GM was good for the US). Moreover, in Japan, their corporate culture is even more closely enmeshed with government than in North America.

 

I remember the Audi cases and it coloured my attitude towards Audis for a long time. I don't see how the Toyota cases can do otherwise. Time will tell.

[Sparky12]

An interesting take on it:

 

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/09/toyotas-are-safe-enough/?hp

[+ Charlie]

I think it's interesting that we have heard nothing about such incidents in Europe, where Toyota also sells very well, and where the media and legal culture is similar to the US.

[AdamSmith]

I think it's interesting that we have heard nothing about such incidents in Europe, where Toyota also sells very well, and where the media and legal culture is similar to the US.

 

Here is some background on that.

 

Toyota Pedal Issue First Spotted, Ignored In Europe

By Colleen Barry, AP Business Writer

Manufacturing.Net - March 03, 2010

 

GENEVA (AP) -- Long before Toyota's serious problems with surging accelerators, reports surfaced in Europe of a less catastrophic problem with gas pedals that didn't ease off when drivers removed their foot.

 

Officials in Europe and the United States are now asking if those early issues -- instead of being treated as minor glitches -- might have served as a red flag for the bigger problems to come.

 

Yet instead of connecting the dots, Toyota dismissed the sticky gas pedal issue as a quirk of the right-hand drive vehicles used in the UK for months after the reports began in December 2008.

 

Initial response to the European problem appears to have been hindered by Toyota's culture of secrecy, and by sluggish response by European consumer advocates and regulators.

 

Until, that is, drivers started reporting sticky pedals last October in the United States -- where Toyota was already grabbing unwanted headlines for fatal crashes caused by sudden unintended acceleration.

 

The U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration wants to know more, and in a move safety experts say is unprecedented the agency has begun looking for data not just in the United States, but overseas as well.

 

It asked Toyota last week to provide detailed information on when it noticed problems -- a step that no European regulator appears to have taken.

 

"The record for Toyota has been one of secrecy. Its version of: If you don't ask, we won't," said Clarence Ditlow, a safety expert who leads the Center for Auto Safety, a U.S. consumer group.

 

"Sudden acceleration? Is that related to the sticky gas pedals? In the public's eye and in Toyota's eyes it is related," Ditlow said. Especially in the absence of any concrete evidence of what has caused the fatal sudden acceleration crashes.

 

Tadawshi Arashima, the CEO of Toyota Europe, said Monday in Geneva that they don't believe the sticky gas pedal is the cause of the sudden acceleration accidents, but they are still investigating possible causes, including the electronic control system.

 

"We tested vigorously .. and we couldn't find any malfunction. We are asking a third party to do this," Arashima told a group of reporters on the eve of press days for the Geneva Auto Show.

 

Some 1.7 million cars in Europe alone were recalled in January to fix the sticky pedal.

 

That's more than one year after the first European reports, in December 2008, about the problem, in which accelerators didn't return to their position when the driver removed his foot. When that happens, the car does not slow down as the driver would anticipate -- but neither does it surge ahead as in the cases of sudden acceleration widely reported in the U.S.

 

Jim Lentz, president of Toyota Motor Sales USA Inc., acknowledged at a congressional hearing this week that Toyota had a weakness in handling information. "We didn't do a very good job of sharing information across the globe. Most of the information was one-way. It would flow from the regional markets, like the United States, Canada or Europe, back to Japan."

 

"My translation of that," said safety expert Ditlow, "is that the U.S. didn't know what was going on in Europe."

 

If Toyota wasn't seeing the picture, neither were European consumer advocates and regulators who weren't rushing in to fill the void. Europe has no single auto safety agency, and national agencies generally rely on automakers for data. And recall notices are shared on a system called Rapex, which a spokesman described as a "market surveillance" system for member states based on information provided by producers.

 

But it is something short of an early alert system: The Rapex alert on the sticking pedals went up after Toyota's recall notice.

 

Even consumers didn't seem alarmed.

 

Gerry Broughan, a 52-year-old Dublin taxi driver who owns a 2008 Yaris, says he'd known for months about "the slippy, sticky pedal" on his car -- long before the news broke of the mass recall in January.

 

He says when the accelerator sticks, it's dislodged by pumping it quickly, though it's as easy to step on the brakes and wait for the accelerator to eventually glide slowly back to neutral.

 

"I'm an alert driver so it's just a pain. Fortunately the brakes on the vehicle are grand," he said.

 

Analysts point out there have been no serious accidents reported in Europe from any Toyota malfunction. And that the number of reported incidents involving the sticky accelerator is quite small -- 26 confirmed mechanical malfunctions out of 5.5 million sold vehicles of eight different model lines involved in the January recall, including the AYGO and the Yaris.

 

But in Britain, safety advocates are questioning whether the agencies charged with monitoring vehicle safety are active enough.

 

Robert Gifford, the executive director of the Parliamentary Advisory Council for Transport Safety, a nonprofit group that seeks to advise British legislators on safety issues, says the UK's structure for dealing with recalls is an issue "that is beginning to emerge."

 

"The issue for me is whether our agencies should have the authority to insist that it be a safety recall rather than leaving the decision primarily in the hands of the manufacturer. And I think that is still open to question," Gifford said.

 

Europe's underdeveloped consumer culture also may play a role in the low number of reported sticky accelerators -- and the absence of official reports in Europe of the more dramatic unintended sudden acceleration problem. There have been some media reports, mostly in Britain.

 

Walter Schwarz, 79, a retired journalist from Colchester, England, rammed into a van in November when his four-year-old Toyota Avensis accelerated suddenly as he drove in a slow-moving lane on the M25 motorway.

 

There were no serious injuries to Schwarz, his wife, and the three people in the van. Schwarz at first concluded that it had been a "senior moment" and not the fault of the car -- until he started hearing reports from across the Atlantic.

 

He said he did not report the problem to Toyota, nor did his insurer inquire about it.

 

http://www.manufacturing.net/News-Toyota-Pedal-Issue-First-Spotted-Ignored-In-Europe-030310.aspx

[wayout]

Stupid Question

 

Ok, so this is a stupid question from someone who knows nothing about cars but its been on my mind so maybe someone here can answer it for me. When a car starts accelerating uncontrollably, like that one in California yesterday, wouldn't you just put the car into neutral (disengaging the drive I assume by doing that which I am pretty sure you can do on an automatic transmission unless Toyotas are different than mine) and coast or brake to a stop?

[+ Charlie]

That is the logical thing to do, and I don't know why the police didn't tell the driver in the San Diego incident to do that. It is true that neutral is harder to find on that model (the 2008 Prius, which I used to own), because of the unusual "gear shift": one has to hold the lever in the neutral position, between forward and reverse, because it won't stay there by itself.

[+ Charlie]

AS, thanks for this interesting article.

[+ deej]

That is the logical thing to do, and I don't know why the police didn't tell the driver in the San Diego incident to do that. It is true that neutral is harder to find on that model (the 2008 Prius, which I used to own), because of the unusual "gear shift": one has to hold the lever in the neutral position, between forward and reverse, because it won't stay there by itself.

 

Local news interviewed a Toyota dealer on how to stop a Prius and he didn't mention the gear shift not staying in neutral. Thanks for giving me another reason not to own a Prius!

 

He did point out that with the push-button ignition you have to press AND HOLD it for at least three seconds to force a shutdown while moving. I wonder how many Prius owners know that.

[Guest Tristan]

That is the logical thing to do, and I don't know why the police didn't tell the driver in the San Diego incident to do that. It is true that neutral is harder to find on that model (the 2008 Prius, which I used to own), because of the unusual "gear shift": one has to hold the lever in the neutral position, between forward and reverse, because it won't stay there by itself.

 

I saw a report on the news about that incident. You're right. The police didn't. I was surprised when I saw the report. I recall that the police told the driver to put both feet on the brake and turn off the ignition. Somehow, it worked, and the car coasted to a stop.

 

I thought that turning off the ignition doesn't work. It's been widely circulated that for all Toyota models, that you must put the car in neutral while holding the brakes down in order to stop the car. If you manage to do that, then turn off the ignition. That's what I keep hearing from every media source.

[instudiocity]

Just be sure not to lock the steering wheel when you switch off the ignition. If you've got a push-button start you're ok, but if you've got a key start, you could create an whole new set of problems by turning the key off.

 

Also, realize you're going to lose power steering and power brakes when you kill the engine. Best to go to Neutral and ride the brakes.

 

The San Diego Prius incident, the CHP told her to pull up the emergency brake. That's what started her slowing down. Emergency brake, what an appropriate name.

[+ Charlie]

Turning off the ignition will stop the engine, but it also means that the power function on the brakes and steering stops working, making the car harder to control.

[+ Charlie]

Local news interviewed a Toyota dealer on how to stop a Prius and he didn't mention the gear shift not staying in neutral. Thanks for giving me another reason not to own a Prius!

 

He did point out that with the push-button ignition you have to press AND HOLD it for at least three seconds to force a shutdown while moving. I wonder how many Prius owners know that.

 

I didn't know about the 3 second rule until all this brouhaha erupted; if nothing else good comes out of it, a lot more owners now know what to do in this abnormal situation. In spite of everything, I still like the Prius, so I just traded mine in for a new one last week (the deals are good right now--I got two years free maintenance with it).

[Lookin]

Just as the step-on-the-brake-to-shift-out-of-park interlock became standard after the Audi mess, I fully expect there will be some mandatory new technology coming out of the Toyota troubles. A few that spring to mind:

 

• A sensor that determines whether or not a foot is pressing down on the accelerator. No foot, no acceleration. My laptop trackpad knows not only if a finger is touching it, but how many fingers, and how fast they're moving.

 

• An easy yet deliberate way to shift the car into neutral. Just shutting down the engine won't be safe enough if the driver would also lose power steering and power brakes. I'm sure many drivers have never had the experience of putting muscle into steering or stopping, and a freeway isn't the place to learn.

 

• A collar around the accelerator and brake pedals that prevent them from getting trapped by floor mats, feet, or a bottle of lube rolling around on the floor.

 

I'm sure there will be more and Toyota may be the company to introduce them. I'm also sure that some of them will become mandatory, at least in the U. S. And, yes, car prices will go up as we use technology to protect us from technology, and from ourselves.

[KMEM]

Lookin-

 

May I borrow your trackpad? It seems very sexy.

 

As always, you have good and reasonable advice. Steering and stopping a car without power assist really isn't that difficult BUT it would be helpful and useful IF one had done it before being in an emergency situation.

 

It makes me cringe to think about shifting into neutral with the engine going full bore. How does 12,000 RPM sound and what damage does it do to the engine? However, it is nothing compared to injuring the driver or passengers OR worse.

 

Most emergency brakes are mere shadows of the normal braking system. I have no idea if they should or could be effectively used in a "runaway" situation. Ordinarily, I would think not.

 

If we cannot control computers, then will they control us? Only time will tell.

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[+ Charlie]

I've been thinking about the fact that the cops didn't tell the driver of the Prius to put the car in neutral, and wondering why. Then it hit me that something that simple probably wouldn't occur to them. Most cops are too young nowadays to understand their cars the way men of an older generation (mine) did. When we were teenagers, the most sophisticated device we were ever likely to have access to was an automobile, so we focussed on absorbing a lot of information about the their mechanics; in fact, they required more conscious manipulation than they do now, and they malfunctioned more often, so we learned from experience how they worked. Few drivers today--myself included--understand how all the automation works, or care, since not much goes wrong, and if it does, we have to take it to an expert. Young men today focus on how to work all their electronic devices--gameboys, smartphones, digital cameras, computers, HDTVs, ipods, etc.--which is probably why they understand them so much better than I do. The only thing a young cop is likely to think of for stopping a car is to step on the brake.

[AdamSmith]

If we cannot control computers, then will they control us? Only time will tell.

 

For good or ill, no turning back now from the computer-controlled world.

 

One line of thinking is that we have entered a developmental 'trough' where what we demand from 'intelligent' systems, and what we are trying to build into them, has surpassed our ability to validate it, except through long use. As any software user has experienced -- you the buyer are the beta test site, like it or not. And that the only way out of this trough is once computer and software systems become capable of self-design and self-improvement.

 

How long from there to sentience, 'quasi' or actual, is the really fascinating question.

 

...Has the following been essentially Toyota's response?

 

http://www.moviesounds.com/2001/concerned.wav

[KMEM]

AS-

 

Of course, you are correct but can we be happy with the computer controlled world? What I have to mean is that humans are fallible; therefore computers are at least the same or worse. So, we are turning our lives over to "machines" that are man-made and just as or more fallible as man incarnate. How silly of us.

 

In the aircraft that I fly, I can turn off the computers that "aid" me and resume "normal" flying. There are no fly by wire controls in the "simple" aircraft that I fly and no "bad results" when I turn off the computers. Now, I would be completely remiss if I did not acknowledge that those computers make my life and flying MUCH simpler and make me look like I know what I am doing. I would hate to give them up, BUT I would also hate to COMPLETELY rely upon them. Just call me an old fool but one who is aware of what is going on around me.

 

Best regards,

KMEM

[RM]

So how come no one ever thinks to put the car in neutral? On some cars, turning off the ignition locks the steering.

[Lookin]

KMEM, my trackpad really enjoys getting loaned out. Perhaps the alternative control systems you have in the cockpit may become standard in the passenger car. Where is it written that steering needs to become more difficult when the engine shuts off?

 

Worrying but hilarious, AdamSmith. Is it inevitable that we get a Hal on the other side of the developmental trough? Will we ever get a computer that could make a living as a comic?

 

 

http://www.computersciencelab.com/ComputerHistory/HtmlHelp/Images2/TapeDrive.jpg

 

Take my wife. . . Please. !