Will it ever fly?

[Guest]

Another fatal crash would very likely be the end of the program.

 

Ya think?

 

I suggested months ago, the Max may become the world's largest and most expensive paperweight. We will see...

[Guest]

Another fatal crash would very likely be the end of the program.

 

Ya think?

 

I suggested months ago, the Max may become the world's largest and most expensive paperweight. We will see...

[Max]

Ya think?

 

I suggested months ago, the Max may become the world's largest and most expensive paperweight. We will see...

 

Only time will tell, but I wouldn't hold your breath for that outcome.

 

Same was said about the "radical" use of battery power in the 787, particularly after the ET fire.

 

If the Max program stalls, maybe Boeing will proceed with NMA. They probably wish they'd already done at this point.

[Guest]

Chris Parker, Travel Consultant

 

There were 2 elements to the crashes, the plane,which seemed to have been fixed.

The other element was poor pilot training. This has certainly not been addressed and the silence on the issue is very worrying. The last “training” was a few hours on an ipad.

The whole premise of the 737 MAX was that was a minor upgrade so no expensive simulator training was required. It is rumoured Southwest would get $1 million per aircraft, if it is mandated. Boeing will be using every ounce of influence to stop that happening.

However with many airlines matching experienced Captains with co-pilots with a few hundred hours experience. It is crucial those pilots practice drills in a simulator, so when something happens they react quickly and work with the Captain.

Anything less is NOT safe.

My original advice to corporate travellers was a 6 to 18 month ban based on region. I am inclined to up it to 9 to 24 months. That should give time for crews to have simulator training.

I will be looking at developing Travel Policies avoiding 737 MAX by carrier and also location. It is a pain, but safety has to be 100%.

[+ oldNbusted]

Now customers are opting to get different Boeing models, instead of the 737 Max.

[mike carey]

Since I've previously posted on this subject in this thread I'll continue to do so. The second research flight landed this afternoon, non-stop from London to Sydney, roughly the same time as JFK-SYD but about 1500km further (tail winds).

https://www.qantasnewsroom.com.au/media-releases/qantas-centenary-celebrations-take-off-as-direct-london-sydney-research-flight-lands/

Tomorrow (Saturday) is Qantas' 99th birthday and the aircraft is in a commemorative livery for the airline's hundredth year. As the article notes, early next year the Royal Australian Mint will issue a commemorative $1 coin into circulation.

[+ Archer]

Ok I've looked around and tried to get an answer to this question, but haven't found one. As I understand it, the new engines on the 737MAX are too large to fit under the wings; so Boeing placed them forward of the wings. This is one of the changes that created the instability which required the creation of MCAS. Can someone here explain to me first: Is my understanding correct? Second: Why didn't Boeing redesign the landing gear so that the engines would fit under the wings in the safest place? I'm not trying to second guess anyone. I'm not an engineer and I really want to understand the design decisions.

[Max]

Ok I've looked around and tried to get an answer to this question, but haven't found one. As I understand it, the new engines on the 737MAX are too large to fit under the wings; so Boeing placed them forward of the wings. This is one of the changes that created the instability which required the creation of MCAS. Can someone here explain to me first: Is my understanding correct? Second: Why didn't Boeing redesign the landing gear so that the engines would fit under the wings in the safest place? I'm not trying to second guess anyone. I'm not an engineer and I really want to understand the design decisions.

 

Essentially, you are correct. The engines on the 737Max are larger (and more efficient). To fit them under the wing without changing the landing gear, they were moved forward so that the largest part of the engine (the fan) could be raised without interfering with the wing structure. The change did not create instability but in some situations the difference in the engine placement could cause the aircraft to pitch up more than the 737NG and MCAS was designed to counteract this to prevent the aircraft from stalling. MCAS is only active when the autopilot is not engaged (because the autopilot has other stall prevention safeguards). The fatal flaw in the MCAS design (which, with the admitted benefit of hindsight really looks stupid to me) was that it took angle of attack (pitch) information from only one of the two sensors on the aircraft (alternating between them on each successive flight). The single failure point is very unusual and obviously inappropriate (again, with the admitted benefit of hindsight). Moving the engines wasn't the problem, MCAS dependency on only one input was. This was compounded by the intentional function of MCAS - to forcefully put the nose down - repeatedly if necessary. And it was that latter bit that was the second problem. It didn't just kick once...it did so repeatedly.

 

Another area of contention is whether Boeing told pilots enough about MCAS. It's not clear whether engineers considered the possibility of MCAS malfunction but if they did, they apparently assumed that pilots would react to a malfunction of MCAS in the same way they would any other similar automation run amok. The runaway-trim scenario is one with which all pilots are familiar (or at least should be if they fly an airplane with electric trim controls). And if followed, the procedure corrects the MCAS malfunction problem. Basically, whether in a Cirrus like I fly or a 777 (or 737NG or 737MAX), when the plane does something you don't want it to, or don't understand, you turn off that system (whether by switch or turning off the power to the system). This happened a week or so ago with an Embraer regional jet.

 

The main landing gear in all 737 aircraft fold under and tuck into the body of the aircraft. My understanding is that there's basically not enough room to make them longer.

[Guest]

Boy, I'd like to be a bug on the wall during this 'information session':

 

[/url]

By Evan Hoopfer – Staff Writer, Dallas Business Journal

 

The union that represents American Airlines flight attendants will be in attendance for a three-day information session Boeing is hosting in early December that will give various stakeholders in the 737 Max an overview of the jet's return.

Lori Bassani, president of the Association of Professional Flight Attendants, which represents approximately 28,000 American flight attendants, said she was invited to Washington state by Boeing Co. (NYSE: BA) on Dec. 2, 3 and 4 for sessions that will include presentations and tours.

"As flight attendants, we're face-to-face people," Bassani said. "We want to look in your eyes and see if we believe you."

[Guest]

• A manager at Canada's aviation regulator wrote in an email that Boeing's 737 Max should not be allowed to fly again with the controversial MCAS automated flight-control system, according to a New York Times report .
  
• In the leaked email, which was originally sent to officials at the FAA , as well as the European and Brazilian aviation regulators, the Canadian official said that he was worried that regulators might end up approving Boeing's fix to the system, even if issues continued to emerge.
  
• At least one manager at the FAA agreed, according to the Times.
  

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/22/business/boeing-canada-737-max.html

[Guest]

Problems Pile Up for Boeing as 737 Max Delays Continue

The timing is as precarious as ever. Global regulators still need to approve a software fix.

 

The return of Boeing’s 737 Max appears to be slipping. Again.

 

The plane has been grounded since March after two deadly crashes that killed 346 people. It has disrupted the global aviation industry and plunged Boeing into the biggest crisis the aerospace giant has ever faced.

 

Yet today, after more than eight months of intensive work by Boeing and aviation regulators, the timing of the return of the 737 Max appears more precarious than ever.

 

While Boeing has said publicly that it expects the Federal Aviation Administration to begin the process of ungrounding the plane this year, that now appears unlikely, according to a government official familiar with the process. Instead, it is increasingly likely that the grounding will continue into 2020, given the series of tests Boeing must complete before the regulator clears the plane to fly.

 

F.A.A. officials believe that it could take until late January for the agency to lift the grounding and approve training requirements for pilots. It would then take weeks for airlines to prepare Max jets to operate commercial routes.

 

“It’s becoming increasingly clear that they’re not going to get it sorted out this year,” said Scott Hamilton, managing director of the Leeham Company, an aviation consultancy. “I would be completely flabbergasted if the airplane does not get recertified, but I’ve been flabbergasted on more than one occasion.”

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/27/business/boeing-737-max-return-to-service.html

[+ oldNbusted]

Problems Pile Up for Boeing as 737 Max Delays Continue

The timing is as precarious as ever. Global regulators still need to approve a software fix.

 

The return of Boeing’s 737 Max appears to be slipping. Again.

 

The plane has been grounded since March after two deadly crashes that killed 346 people. It has disrupted the global aviation industry and plunged Boeing into the biggest crisis the aerospace giant has ever faced.

 

Yet today, after more than eight months of intensive work by Boeing and aviation regulators, the timing of the return of the 737 Max appears more precarious than ever.

 

While Boeing has said publicly that it expects the Federal Aviation Administration to begin the process of ungrounding the plane this year, that now appears unlikely, according to a government official familiar with the process. Instead, it is increasingly likely that the grounding will continue into 2020, given the series of tests Boeing must complete before the regulator clears the plane to fly.

 

F.A.A. officials believe that it could take until late January for the agency to lift the grounding and approve training requirements for pilots. It would then take weeks for airlines to prepare Max jets to operate commercial routes.

 

“It’s becoming increasingly clear that they’re not going to get it sorted out this year,” said Scott Hamilton, managing director of the Leeham Company, an aviation consultancy. “I would be completely flabbergasted if the airplane does not get recertified, but I’ve been flabbergasted on more than one occasion.”

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/27/business/boeing-737-max-return-to-service.html

 

 

And here is the thing, the longer it takes, the more apparent how far from ready it was when originally approved.

[Guest]

Note to MF member Maxi:

 

"Every time it looks like they're close to getting [approval for the Max to fly again], it slips for one reason or another," said Cai von Rumohr, analyst with Cowen who still has a buy recommendation on the stock. "The reason I've stuck in is it looks like they could make it by the end of the year. But we're at a breaking point."

 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/27/business/boeing-stock-wall-street/index.html

[Guest]

The Boeing charm offensive in progress. Wonder if Max is there?

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/02/boeing-invites-industry-to-737-max-factory-in-charm-offensive.html

[+ oldNbusted]

The hits just keep coming...

 

FAA seeks $3.9 million fine from Boeing for defective parts on 737 NG planes

 

The FAA disclosed in June that 300 NG and 737 MAX airplanes could contain improperly manufactured parts and said it would require these parts to be quickly replaced. The fine announced on Friday only relates to NG airplane components, the FAA said, but it is continuing to review the issue as it relates to the MAX.

Now waiting for the MAX shoe to drop.

[Max]

The Boeing charm offensive in progress. Wonder if Max is there?

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/12/02/boeing-invites-industry-to-737-max-factory-in-charm-offensive.html

 

Nope. Thanksgiving in Europe. Hope all had a nice holiday. Was hysterical to ask our tour guides about the meaning of Black Friday. They don't celebrate Thanksgiving in Italy, but they do worship the day after!

[Guest]

It's just amazing that Muilenberg et al knowingly lied with straight faces while blaming the crews and trying to keep the doomed planes flying after the second crash.

Even after the second crash in 5 months, these despicable people tried to keep the aircraft from being grounded!

 

[MEDIA=twitter]1204788304362606593[/MEDIA]

[Guest]

Only time will tell, but I wouldn't hold your breath for that outcome.

 

Same was said about the "radical" use of battery power in the 787, particularly after the ET fire.

 

If the Max program stalls, maybe Boeing will proceed with NMA. They probably wish they'd already done at this point.

 

Looks like the 737 Max program , like the aircraft itself, is stalling Maxi...

 

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/shutdown-likely-at-boeing-renton-as-737-max-crisis-extends/

[+ oldNbusted]

The bad press is starting to sink in...

 

Travelers hesitant to fly the Boeing 737 Max, survey finds

[Guest]

The bad press is starting to sink in...

 

 

 

No matter what solution Boeing comes up with, who would ever fly in one?

 

Time for Boeing to get ready for that sweet sweet tax payer bail out.

[+ azdr0710]

737 MAX production will be suspended in January........

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/boeing-suspend-production-737-max-plane-january-n1102851

[+ oldNbusted]

Boeing will suspend 737 Max production in January

 

Just how long Boeing will keep its 737 Max production line halted was not immediately clear, because it will depend on when regulators clear the plane to fly again. U.S. airlines have taken the planes out of their schedules until at least March. American last week said it doesn’t expect to fly the planes before April.

 

It's also going to take time to make any changes to the existing ones before putting them back into service or delivering them...

[Otto]

This is about corporate greed and the GOP's seemingly insatiable need to cater to corporate interests , literally, at all cost.

 

This travesty is due to Boeing being caught short by a competitor, Airbus, in the drive to produce the next generation airbus for the world. Rather than spend the five years and billions in developing a new airframe Boeing jerry build a design from the old 737 and hung too big engines too low on the fuselage which created instability. But. to compound the chances of a disaster they insisted on and got reduced FAA regulations and, get this, allowed Boeing to conduct its own safety certifications and safety approvals. Fox in henhouse when corporate profits and executive bonuses were on the line.

 

This is a failure of both Boeing and Federal safety regulation. This plane will never fly safely no matter how many bells and whistles and hi tech gadgets you hang on it. Put a fork in it and move on lest more die needlessly.

[+ pdxleo]

Never did understand why the kept pumping the possibly-unfixable product out of the plant- did they think that they could just buffalo their way thru any inquiry into their safety "program" and convince the flying public that a few lines of programming could keep them alive? This will end up destroying the entire US aviation industry, if they can't get a handle on this. Growing up in the Northwest, Boeing was a respected technological leader, and now they have thrown that all in the trash, and the hundreds of thousands of middle class jobs and families are at risk.

[+ oldNbusted]

United has dropped the Max from schedules until June.

 

The Boeing Starliner test flight to the space station did not succeed.

 

They could really use some good news and they are not getting it.