Trouble in Paradise?

[trilingual]

In Tomcal's last post in the "Brazilian Party" thread, he mentions that certain American and Canadian travelers seem to be on the verge of ruining the party, both for other foreign visitors and for local Brazilian customers, by OVERPAYING!!!

 

This was my one big fear when I first posted the review of the Brazilian saunas, because I know there are people who can't exercise good judgment when they're abroad and just start throwing cash around like it's Monopoly money because prices are cheap. If you're reading this, and you're one of the guilty parties: STOP!!!

 

There are good, market-based reasons why prices are what they are in Brazil. As has been discussed in other threads on this board, R$50 is a fair price in Brazil for what usually amounts to less than an hour of a guy's time, in a country where the minimum wage is R$200 a MONTH, and where there isn't a scarcity of young, good-looking, well-hung studs. Just remember that if a guy scores twice in a night, he's already made half a month's minimum wage. By Brazilian standards, in other words, escorting at the baths is a lucrative occupation. DON'T be an ugly foreigner by messing things up for the locals. I repeat, and repeat, we are guests in Brazil. We're expected to follow local custom when we're there. It's no more appropriate for one of us foreigners to go around grossly overpaying the guys in Brazil than it would be for a Brazilian visiting New York to expect to hire an escort there for US$30. Things are different in New York. But Brazil isn't New York. It's a very different place, on any number of levels, and foreigners who go there acting like it's the same as New York are making a serious mistake. By overpaying them, the guys at the saunas will start expecting that. They'll turn into hardened gold-diggers and the fun will go out of the entire experience.

 

I repeat, pay the fair going rate in Brazil, and NO MORE. (If you want to add a SMALL tip for exceptional service, that's OK, but you can also treat a guy you like to drinks or something to eat, or give him a non-lavish present.) DO NOT be the one who ruins something good, for local customers, for the working guys or for the rest of us.

 

Enough said! x(

[Guest SeaGuy]

<There are good, market-based reasons why prices are what they are in Brazil. >

 

Well, I expected a statement like this to rear its ugly head and so it has. I will not disagree that there are some sound market based reasons why prices are what they are in Brazil, cheaper than what they are in New York just as prices in Minneapolis are less than what they are in New York or San Francisco, which explains why there aren't more escorts in Duluth and Minneapolis, ambitious young people flee to New York, LA, or San Francisco, where "the money is" as it were. However there are also a number of not so good reasons why prices are what they are in Brazil; IMF monetary policy, Brazilian social policy, US Foreign policy, to name a few. So in the desire to be brief let me just make a few comments that will no doubt prove to be incendiary and get the debate going. You stated that the Brazilian minimum wage, the standard by which Americans or Europeans traveling to Brazil should gage their remunerative policies while guests in that beautiful country, is R$200. Please share and demonstrate to us the living standards provided by such a fine wage. It is simple enough to do, go to the classifieds of O Globo or another newspaper and find where and what kind of housing is available for that kind of rent? If everything is so dirt cheap in Brazil why does Ernani charge what he charges? I realize that he speaks English and that is an important skill to posess when doing business with North Americans, but don't his prices seem "outrageous" by "Brazilian" standards if those are the "standards" which we are adhere to while in Brazil. Furthermore, if we (meaning those of us priviledged enough to live in developed countries of the "first world") are to adopt and adhere to "local standards" of every country we travel to, what should we do when we travel to countries that present us with even more "probematic" and dare I say "unjust" standards, such as a trip I took to South Africa during apartheid. Just a couple of questions to ponder.

 

This is not to say that we should travel abroad and ignore economic and social norms and pay US wages to Brazilian workers, but rather than adapting to local norms and helping to perpetuate those norms and conditions, especially when those norms and conditions serve our less than noble interests and so long as we don't have to live with them, is it not better to practice sound and just judgment if we are capable of it and to act conscientiously not just in our own self-interest? Just a thought though.

 

;-)

[Guest Tomcal_]

Thanks Tri, i was going to make my comment a seperate post, because, it seems that the "good hearted" people from the North of Brazil can't resist giving more then the $50. and this was for less then an hour and the boy didn't cum which is why they will usually ask for more. Seaguy, is talking economic policy here and third world economics but the fact is, as stated by the Six local men I met and discussed in my post, they are the regulars who support the suanas and they will get priced out of their market. the first thing these guys said to me when i introduced myself was and they found out I was American was " don't pay more then $50."

Seaguy, take a guy like Andre, who told us he meets on average 5 guys a night and works 5 or 6 nights, that works out to 1250. + a week, over $5000, a month, a apt. in Copa or Butofuco, runs about 450 for a very decent on, that means for hanging out in a towel for 4 or 5 hours a night, he is living better then 80% of the other residents. Has had to learn no skill except how to get "it Hard" on command! and learn enough social skills to make us believe this hour long fantasy! the guys paying for boys in Rio are not going to have a economic impact onthe Brazilian economy, but will have an impact on the number of guys going to Rio if the price goes up.

Seaguy, have you been to the saunas in Brazil? curious as to why this board which is supposed to be about Sex in Brazil, always has you getting into these ecomonic topics. If the purpose is to have us become humanitarian sex seekers, throwing more money then needed to sex workers, we can do that in our own country if so willing(i am not either a bleeding heart liberal or a great humanitarian, although i think i am a nice guy and i think the boys in Rio would agree. )Therefore, I will continue to have sex with the boys i find attractive at the best possible price. I suggest you start a thread on ecomonics, prostitution and third world economies and if guys are interested in that they will, i am sure give you the needed space to pontificate on those topics.

[+ Axiom2001]

I applaud and accept Tri's ADVICE! He has given a plethora of outstanding information to us who plan to travel to Brasil as well as those who have been there previously. I understand Seaguy's position, but I will have to disagree in that when we begin to dole out excessively amounts of money by local standards we are hurting those local men who frequent the Brasilian saunas. AGAIN men, be prudent and accept what a well-traveled, provocative, knowledgeable board member has related to us.

 

If you want to give the men who work in the saunas more-- do as Tri stipulated-- meal, timely tip, tasteful gift, etc.......

 

When a US escort's fees are, let's say $175.00-- will you exceed this by giving him $250 your first time seeing him and then post a review with this amount. Will this escort expect others to dole out this amount for an initial encounter? I hope my thoughts are not confusing!

 

And as for one visiting South Africa during the days of the overt horrendous apartheid-- shame on you! The UK and the US imposed sanctions on that country during that time, the US doing it reluctantly after enduring pressure from its own people. Entertainers who had a social and political and human conscience refused to partake in the adventures in Sun City. Because of all of the financial impedings plus political activism-- South Africa lifted that horrible imposed law. (As an aside, as a person of color in this country-- I went to South Africa last year and plan to return, perhaps to work in an educational institution!

Prior to this time I worked politically here in "Ban Apartheid in South Africa.)

 

I thought I would share these thoughts. I am NOT casting aspersions toward the previous respondent-- just baffled by some of the text that you wrote. I don't post this to engender any DEBATE or a lot of nastiness. I just have to acknowledge Tri's advice. ENOUGH SAID...

[+ Axiom2001]

I am an humanitarian and a social activist; I am also a gay man who have (within this past year) sought the services of escorts in this country, and I do plan to go to Brasil in October to enjoy the culture, the people, and lastly the men in the saunas.

 

Last week I met my wonderful friend who is from Sao Paulo; we had a fabulous "hot" time together. While we discussed his country, he urged me to visit the saunas; he said it is a unique experience. I told him about our confused respondent who asked about clothes and shoes-- my man really wanted to know what was said, etc.; I attempted to allay his state of bafflement by honestly stating what some of you men wrote. Next time we meet, and I hope soon, I will ask him about the prices charged, etc. We, he and I, are honest with each other on many, many levels. He has repeatedly requested and suggested that I ask him ANYTHING that I wish to know. I am NOT a naive individual, so I truly think that I have received the answers that I can acknowledge.

 

Again, men, honor Tri's advice. He has given a lot of it to us which encouraged me some time ago to ask that he write a travel guide to Brasil from a gay man's perspective. In LONELY PLANET's BRAZIL, there are paragraphs regarding gay life in Brasil; there is also a listing of a supposedly very-helpful travel agent in Brasil which caters principally to gay travelers to and in the country. I plan to check them out for tours when I am there. (I also would like for Ernani to serve as a guide to me for two of his tours, but I do not know about riding on the back of a motorcycle in Brasil. I read about the "typical" driver in Rio. The comments brought back memories of some drivers in Italy. I am loath to try this adventure. Anyway, fellows, a word to the wise...."Follow Tri's advice and GUIDANCE!" I think we will be better off in the end...

[CT Dick]

And pay more at a restaurant because the meal was worth more than US$10? And, more to the hotel because the room was worth more that US$45? And, more to the taxi because the ride was worth more than US$3? Get my drift?

 

Also, the majority of the clientel at the saunas is local. By pushing up the prices, we are screwing them.

 

Dick

[+ glutes]

I also agree with 'Tri'. We should be paying local prices for local services! As I responded in a earlier post that " I wish I made $35/hour here in the USA" in that Erani was charging for touring folks around. (THis is strictly touring, not escorting) Now I understand it would be done on a motorcycle????'

Local Prices 4 Local Services.

[Brall]

I could not resist replying to this post! Gentlemen, Trilingual is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT; case in point, Prague, CZ.

 

I went to Prague a couple of years after the Berlin wall and the eastern bloc fell. The overall prices for great hotels, restaurants, and all forms of entertainment -especially the escorts- were very inexpensive compared to prices in the USA. A few years later Prague was overrunned with tourists. The locals, Germans and Austrians, both known to be frugal, started complaining about the people from the US and GB paying too much and over tipping. As they feared, the overpaying would drive the prices up, and it did!! Now, the prices for hotels, restaurants, and entertainment have sky rocketed. I remember a German friend asking me: "Why do Americans feel so guilty about low prices? Why must they always throw their money around? Does this make them feel superior? Most of them will never come back, don't they know they are ruining things for everyone else?". His questions were very profound, and look at what has happened financially to Prague.

 

Come on guys, think and use common sense. Read, re-read, and think about what CT Dick has written. If you feel that you "must" over pay, then spread the money around by having two, three, or more guys, instead of overpaying one guy.

 

I am glad I am going to Brazil soon. I foresee the prices in Brazil will go the way prices did in Prague.

[trilingual]

I think both Tomcal's illustration of what one of the guys earns by working at the baths and CT Dick's point that we don't go around overpaying restaurants, hotels, cabs, etc., just because they would cost more back home, pretty much refute Seaguy's concerns. The fact is, in Brazil, R$50 is real money. In a week, a guy working at the baths can earn the rent on an apartment in a middle-class neighborhood in Rio. That's a respectable income, in other words. We can't apply U.S. or European monetary values to what things cost in Brazil because prices are different across the board.

 

So DON'T OVERPAY, or the cautionary tale of what happened to Prague will find itself re-playing itself in Rio.

[trilingual]

P.S. I'm not a shill for Ernani. (We've never slept together and I haven't been a client of his.) However, his prices are reasonable, even in Rio terms, for the services he's offering. Yes, you can probably get a standard guide to Rio for a bit less (and I'm sure Ernani's rates are negotiable, depending on what you're looking for) but that standard guide to Rio isn't going to be able to provide you the specialized, in-depth information about certain aspects of Rio life that you're particularly likely to be interested in and that Ernani knows so well! ;-)

 

If you need a fluent English-speaking guide who won't bat an eye at any of your stranger requests, then Ernani's your guy. That's worth paying the bit extra he charges for those specialized tours! And trust me, some of the places Ernani can take you aren't the kind of places Uncle Tri would tell a foreigner to visit on his own. You need a local who knows what he's doing (and who speaks the language) to accompany you.

[+ glutes]

I still can't believe paying R111/hour (at current exchange rate, 3.19) for a tour guide. He must make than a moderate income down there, so be it.

[trilingual]

In life, you get what you pay for. You can certainly hire a cheaper guide. If all you want is the standard half-day city tour of Rio, your hotel can fix you up for that. However, if someone is looking for an English-speaking guide who can introduce a visitor to the non-touristy aspects of Rio, its restaurants and nightlife (gay and otherwise), and its more tantalizing underside, a different, more specialized guide is needed, and that costs more than the run-of-the-mill variety.

 

So, it all depends on what a visitor wants to get out of his trip to Rio, if he's never been there before and feels the need for a guide. Contributors to this board who've used Ernani's services as a guide have been more than pleased with their experiences.

 

FYI, Ernani makes a good living at his responsible day job. He does this to supplement his income so he can take trips to the U.S. and because he's a wild and horny guy who actually has fun escorting and being a guide. He's a native Carioca, he loves his city, and he can show visitors things they just aren't likely to see or experience if they don't speak Portuguese or are unfamiliar with Brazil and its culture.

 

The motorcycle, by the way, is optional. Ernani can accommodate your needs to travel by more conventional means, if that's what you want. So if you're looking for the unconventional tour of Rio, Ernani's your guy. Also, I believe Ernani's guide rates vary depending on the degree of unconventionality of the tour services being offered. I'm sure his standard half-day city tour is less expensive than his after-dark crawl through Rio night life, or his "nasty" tour of places not even many Cariocas know about (or what dare to go).

[+ Lucky]

tri-

When you say you have not slept with Ernami or been a client, does that mean you have not taken his tour with him?

Myself, I think his tour of the nightlife could be pretty interesting, and since he seems to have an exclusive item here, a higher rate would be justified. Anybody can take you to Sugar Loaf, but it takes a pro to get under the grit.

[+ Axiom2001]

Honey, if YOU can't believe it-- then DON'T! My suggestion would be for you to obtain a guide of your own and paying her/him what s/he has requested! "Let it be!" LET it alone. Enough is enough!

[trilingual]

I haven't take Ernani's tour, because 1) I've been going to Rio since 1983 and could probably show Ernani a thing or two; 2) I speak Portuguese fluently; 3) I know my way around the city and know what areas are safe and which aren't; 4) I've been to Rio so often and have so many friends there, it's easy for me to find out what's currently "happening." So Ernani and I are just friends.

 

However, I was once a "newbie" in Brazil (although I could speak Portuguese when I went there) and had to be shown the ropes, too. In my case, I had introductions to the friends of a friend (another Brazil Nut from San Francisco who encouraged me to go and graciously shared his black book before my trip), some of whom are friends to this day. I spent two months in Brazil on that first trip, and I don't think I stopped smiling the entire time I was there! :-) In the years since, I've seen much, though by no means all, of this enormous and amazing country, and have obviously grown to love it deeply. But my experience, as someone who grew up in Latin America and spoke Portuguese before getting to Brazil, is different than that of someone who doesn't speak the language and may be unfamiliar with the culture. If you're traveling to Brazil for the first time, don't speak the language, don't have friends or introductions there, and would like to get more out of the experience than just some bumping and grinding at the saunas, then a good guide makes sense.

 

As I said earlier, I'm not Ernani's shill, but I do know him and I'm confident that he would be a good guide for someone new to the wonders of Rio. And fellow travelers who've engaged him as a guide have reported their pleasure with his services, so it's not just me saying this. But if someone truly feels that Ernani's rates are beyond their budget, then find someone cheaper, or do without and really save money! But qualitatively, I think your experience of Rio not be as good as if you have someone who can introduce you to the city and the Carioca way of life.

 

And, having flogged this subject to death, that's the end of this topic for me. Just DON'T OVERPAY AT THE SAUNAS!!!! }>

[trilingual]

One P.S. about overpaying at the saunas. Not only should you restrain yourself (if you've been doing that) but please, if you see another American doing it, take him aside and do your best to persuade him to stay with the program. After all, it's not just us who will suffer; guys who do this are screwing things up for the local customers, who are the daily bread for these establishments. Let the free-spenders know that they're pissing off the local clients and it would be wise to stop unless they'd like to end up on the front page of their hometown newspaper as the victim of a lynching by a mob of enraged, middle-aged, towel-clad Brazilians! ;-)

[Guest SeaGuy]

<guys who do this are screwing things up for the local customers, who are the daily bread for these establishments. Let the free-spenders know that they're pissing off the local clients and it would be wise to stop unless they'd like to end up on the front page of their hometown newspaper as the victim of a lynching by a mob of enraged, middle-aged, towel-clad Brazilians! ;-) >

 

Unlikely to happen. What is likely to happen is that Brazilians will smarten up and charge the "estrangeiros" more than what they charge regulars and locals thus fully developing and exploiting the potential of their tourist economy. It's good and smart business practice that happens at all major tourist destinations throughout the world. If the Brazilians don't do it they obviously have no business savvy whatsoever. My guess is that sexual services in Brazil will develop along the same lines that legit modeling business is developing in Brazil. They'll realize they have a product and commodity people want and which has a broad market and they'll start marketing it appropriately and at suitable price. :7

[trilingual]

Gosh, are you suggesting a two-tier pricing system? One for locals and one for foreigners? I'm sure glad you don't run the local tourism industry in Rio (or anywhere else) because that'd drive visitors away in droves! If you think two-tier pricing should apply to the escorts, why not to the hotels, restaurants, taxis, shops, museums, etc.? Just like in the old Eastern Europe? How would you feel about that? Ripped off? I'm sure you'd squawk if they started charging more for foreigners at the Louvre than for locals, or if they had the same policy for the elevator ride at the Empire State Building, or the entrance fee to national parks. I can just imagine your reaction at the front desk of the Plaza Athenée when they tried charging you three or four times the going rate for locals just because you're a foreigner. We'd hear your shrieking all the way over on this side of the Atlantic! :7

 

How do we get it through your head that what the guys earn at the baths in Rio is REAL MONEY in Brazilian terms? They are not going begging, or anywhere close to that. Andre may be bragging a bit when he says he sees 5 or 6 clients a night, 5 or 6 nights a week. But the guys who make an effort and work at this full time probably see, on average, 2 or 3 guys a night. Estimating conservatively, that means a guy who does that 5 nights a week would be making at least R$2000/mo. That's a very, very good income in Brazil, and far more than most guys the age of the fellows at the saunas could ever dream of making on a "day" job outside the saunas. If a guy isn't living at home with his family (and saving on rent), he can rent a decent apartment for R$450 - 500. That's only 25% of his monthly income. That still leaves R$1500 (a more than significant sum in Brazil) for savings or helping his family or other expenses.

 

 

The fact that prices in Brazil are cheap right now for visitors with dollars or euros is disorienting, because we're accustomed to things costing more. But when you begin thinking in terms of reais, and the costs of goods and services in reais, the picture changes. When you think in terms of reais, and compare what the guys charge with the prices of other things in Brazil, you realize that their price is in line.

 

Supply and demand comes into play here, too. In a country of 175,000,000 people, of whom more than half are under the age of 30, there's a never-ending supply of hot, horny young studs. Prostitution isn't illegal in Brazil, so there aren't the risk factors that would deter many American guys from considering such a "career." That also increases the potential supply. So considering how many guys are available to play-for-pay, the fairly standard fee of R$50 (in the larger cities) is understandable. However, it's still a more-than-fair wage for what is usually less than an hour of work. (More often a half-hour of work!)

 

I remember during the really bad old days of hyperinflation in Argentina feeling guilty at times about how cheap everything seemed. But the prices (even if they changed daily, or even hourly) made sense to the Argentines. I recall inviting five friends to dinner at Parrilla Rosa, a nice steak house in B.A.; with everything, including wine, the bill was the equivalent of US$25! I wasn't charged US$250 because that's what the meal would have cost at Morton's or Ruth's Chris back in the U.S. Nor would it have occurred to me that I should pay such an amount. That would have been absurd. Even at what seemed like an obscenely low price in dollar terms, Parrilla Rosa was making money, buying supplies, paying its staff, etc. In the context of the Argentine economy, their prices in local currency were fair prices. The same applies to the current situation in Brazil (and Argentina). While prices may be low in dollar terms, they are fair and appropriate in local terms. Projecting the economic values of our own countries into another country with an entirely different set of circumstances is really a form of cultural/economic imperialism, and I think we're opposed to that!

 

And if you don't think an enraged mob of locals might not be provoked against some foreigner who's upsetting the local apple cart, think again. Brazilians are immensely hospitable, kind, patient and sweet, but even they can be provoked. I suggest not trying it.

[Boston Guy]

>Unlikely to happen. What is likely to happen is that

>Brazilians will smarten up and charge the "estrangeiros"

>more than what they charge regulars and locals thus fully

>developing and exploiting the potential of their tourist

>economy. It's good and smart business practice that happens

>at all major tourist destinations throughout the world. If

>the Brazilians don't do it they obviously have no business

>savvy whatsoever. My guess is that sexual services in Brazil

>will develop along the same lines that legit modeling

>business is developing in Brazil. They'll realize they have

>a product and commodity people want and which has a broad

>market and they'll start marketing it appropriately and at

>suitable price. :7

 

Not necessarily.

 

Another real possibility would be that more and more young guys would see other guys making extreme incomes and decide to start doing the same thing. While this might sound like a good thing, it could lead to real problems at the saunas and even more problems -- for the young guys themselves -- when the real/dollar imbalance straightens out, which it will inevitably do.

 

There are other possibilities. If you pay double or triple the amount, some young men might decide that they really will only see 1 client, as opposed to the 2-3 that Tri suggests is the average. That would mean you're advocating setting up a system which provides a message to at least some Brazilians that they are worth so much in economic terms that they can earn a very real and comfortable living by seeing 1 client a day for an hour for each of five days in a week. Hmmmm... I'm not so sure that I'm comfortable with that particular message, especially since you're not advocating paying double or triple for all travel-related services.

 

I think you are well-intentioned. But I would suggest that you spend some serious time in Brazil, really getting to know the locals, before advocating distorting parts of the local economy. For any of us to do otherwise is really rather arrogant.

 

BG

[Boston Guy]

>Unlikely to happen. What is likely to happen is that

>Brazilians will smarten up and charge the "estrangeiros"

>more than what they charge regulars and locals thus fully

>developing and exploiting the potential of their tourist

>economy. It's good and smart business practice that happens

>at all major tourist destinations throughout the world. If

>the Brazilians don't do it they obviously have no business

>savvy whatsoever. My guess is that sexual services in Brazil

>will develop along the same lines that legit modeling

>business is developing in Brazil. They'll realize they have

>a product and commodity people want and which has a broad

>market and they'll start marketing it appropriately and at

>suitable price. :7

 

As I pressed PostMessage on the last message, I had a further thought. :-)

 

One of the main reasons that so many people here are excited about going to Brazil is because of the availability of what appears to be hot young guys at an attractive price. Thus, these services are attracting tourists to Brazil, tourists who come and spend money in a variety of tourist-related venues (hotels, restaurants, taxis, etc.). The tourist trade is surely helpful to Brazil, as it is elsewhere.

 

Now suppose that the price in the saunas goes up to something like US$100 or US$150, following your suggestions.

 

A very, very real possibility is that at least some, if not many, of the US tourists will start to see Brazil as being less attractive, or at least no more attractive than any one of many other interesting destinations. If this happens, this part of the tourist trade would most likely decline.

 

If the tourist trade declines, the sauna boys get hurt, but not as much as others because of their newly-inflated rates. However, the hotels, restaurants and other tourist businesses will be hurt. Worse, the maids, taxi drivers, waitresses and other lower-paid workers will be hurt even more.

 

Sound unrealistic? (No pun intended...)

 

It's not. Economies are like ecologies: they're very, very connected. Purposefully distorting one part of an economy or an ecology can have very unintended consequences.

 

Take a more extreme example. Suppose the Rio police decided to close the saunas. Sound like a good thing? Ask the maid at the tourist hotel who gets laid off because the tourist trade declines... It's that kind of cause-and-effect that I'm talking about.

 

Anyone who is tempted to start meddling with economies and local customs really should seriously study the economy in question before advocating changes.

 

BG

[+ Axiom2001]

Did I not read some time back that Bruno listed a rate of $500 when he comes to the U.S.? If I read correctly-- this got a lot of attention on this board. Recently I have gone to this young comely man's website and his rates are reasonable to me in both the US as well as in his own country Brasil.

 

Seaguy, have you ever been to Brasil? Thailand? I abhor exploitation, but apparently your views are in the minority here. Would it be that difficult for you to "go with the flow" regarding the rates charged by the men in the Brasilian saunas? (Your opinion is respected but fervently opposed!)

[trilingual]

BG makes some excellent points about the interconnectedness of the economy. If the guys at the baths were to get greedy and try charging more because that's what the going rate is in NY or LA (and they'd try charging local customers higher rates, too, because the local customers are often well-to-do) one of several scenarios could happen:

 

1) The local customers would stop patronizing the saunas and they'd close. The saunas' mainstay is their local customers, so if they stay away, they couldn't continue in business.

 

2) Supply-and-demand would eventually force prices back down. There is a plentiful supply of willing workers. If there's price resistance by the main local customer base, the guys will either have to lower their rates or quit the business, because there's always somebody else out there who's willing to undercut prices. When the commodity you're peddling isn't scarce, it's difficult to maintain artificially high prices.

 

If the guys develop the idea that they should charge New York prices in a Brazilian market, they'll be disillusioned soon enough. Unfortunately, by that time the whole enterprise could be damaged and the saunas could be forced to close, because the locals wouldn't pay those prices and they'd stop going.

 

I hope that doesn't happen because of the thoughtless behavior of some foreign visitors. I keep repeating, you are not exploiting the guys by paying their asking price. Remember, YOU didn't establish that price, they did. The guys know what they need to make in order to earn a living, and R$50 a pop yields a good income. The truth is, there's already something of a two-tier system in effect, because at R$50 it's unseemly for a foreigner to bargain (and not so easy to do if your Portuguese is limited). However, that's a negotiable price, and the locals, especially the regulars, often pay less, more along the lines of R$30. If you stay late at the baths, or if you catch a guy who's been there a while and wants to leave but hasn't scored, the guys themselves will sometimes propose a price less than R$50 so they don't end up in the red for the day. Even at R$30, that'll pay for the guy's discounted admission to the sauna, his snacks, his bus/metro costs for the day, and still leave perhaps half the money left over!

 

Also keep in mind that not all of these guys are doing this for their primary source of income. Some work full-time as escorts at the baths, but others only do it a few days a week to supplement their incomes. There are others who do it not really to make a living, but to rationalize to themselves their sexual activity with other men. (The "I'm not really gay if I get paid for doing it" fantasy.) Those guys would be happy with R$10, because it meets their psychological need to get paid in order to maintain their belief that they aren't really gay. But even for the full-timers, R$50 is the rate they themselves set, based on what they need to make a living and what the market will bear. It's hardly exploitation to pay someone their full asking price!

 

To keep things in further perspective, you might keep in mind that the asking price at saunas in non-touristy cities like Porto Alegre or Belo Horizonte is more like R$25 - 30. Although the cost of living in POA or BH is lower than in Rio and São Paulo, it's not that much lower. Yet that's a price that seems to satisfy the needs of both the suppliers and the consumers. So there's no need either to feel that you're exploiting the guys for paying them the general asking price, or to distort the market by paying them more than is appropriate. Besides, as foreigners we're already paying somewhat more than locals do, because they can bargain, or get discounts for being regular customers.

 

If someone is really exceptional and you want to show your appreciation, a reasonable tip (like an extra R$10) will show that. For the math-challenged, that's a 20% tip in a country where 10% is the norm. You can also treat the guy to something to drink or a meal at the snack bar, which also saves him money. Finally, if it's someone you've seen several times, a gift like a nice foreign T-shirt or baseball cap, or a dozen American/European XL condoms and a bottle of good lube, or some duty-free cologne (if you're in a big splurge mode) are always very welcome, and don't push up the basic price structure!

 

Meanwhile, I'm e-mailing the Plaza Athenée and telling them that Seaguy, in a paroxysm of guilt for exploiting the starving French, wishes to be charged four times the normal rate whenerver he stays there because he's a rich foreigner. I know they'll be thrilled to oblige him. In cases like this, the customer is ALWAYS right! }>

[Brall]

Come on guys, GET REAL and GROW UP (at least mentally because some of you are physically old enough). How did you get so old by being so stupid? Now that I have probably offended some of you and perhaps pissed some of you off - good. This is exactly what you will be doing to a lot of people if you persist in paying the guys at the sauna more than the going rate.

 

Why in the hell did you go to Brazil in the first place? To see the beautiful country -please see the first sentence above. The primary reason, and true not the only reason, most of you went to Brazil was due to the nice guys at the saunas and the LOW PRICE. Of course there are alway a few exceptions, but you know exactly why you went there.

 

Now, if I have to pay $150 to $250 for a guy at the sauna, why go to Brazil? I can have a beautiful, well hung, English speaking escort right here at home. No struggles with traveling, air fare and hotel costs, etc. etc. etc. I think you get my point.

 

With so many of us flocking to Brazil to take advantage of the inexpensive services, the market in the USA might suffer with a price decrease for an American escorts (smile).

 

If you insist on over paying, please do so next month. I leave for my first trip in four days and am counting on paying 50 per guy, plus tip if deserving.

[+ Axiom2001]

<If you insist on overpaying, please do so next month...>

 

Don't do it at all, but as Brall stated (in part)...do it after October...

But the key words here are: "Don't do it at all!"

[Guest Tomcal_]

Guys, i just got an email from LAShowbiz who is still down in Rio, he told me how he has spent the last two nights with Antonio from Rogers, dinner and 7 hours together for $200. reyas. that works out to a little over $25. reyas per hour. This is fair, and how Antionio came up with the price is he told him that he normally sees 3- 4 guys a night, so if if is going to give up a whole evening to be with him he would charge what he normally makes, $50. Reyas per CUSTOMER! Antonio is a former national gymnist and very hot. I will make the plea again, Don't over pay!! They and you will both walk away happy.

btw, if you look at previous post on the Rio thread, i stated the Antonio was one of the hottest guys at Rogers. If I could ever figure out how to post pics on this site i would put one of him up.