Are Skytrax ratings for the birds?

[Guest]

We're looking at flights on American Airlines or codeshare to our trip to Indochina in January. No decision in going from Haneda to Ho Chi Minh City--it's a codeshare with JAL. But to go from LAX to Haneda, there are two options: leaving at around 10:45 AM with American Airlines or 12:30 PM with JAL/codeshare (same price). I talked with a friend who's a travel agent, and he recommended American. I haven't been on JAL in some 30 years. I pointed out that JAL is considered by Skytrax to be a 5-star airline, but he said those ratings are unreliable. Indeed, they rate American and Delta as 3-star, but Finnair and British Airways as 4-star, and I very definitely prefer the service on American or Delta to those of Finnair and especially British Airways, which I've had to use a few times (for our trip from LAX to LHR next month, we're on a regular American flight). The food, service, and drink selection were clearly superior on American. 

What I found especially crazy is that they rate Allegiant, Frontier and Spirit Airlines as 3-star, just the same as American or Delta, and those airlines are not in the same ballpark. So I'm not sure I trust those Skytrax ratings at all. They seem to have a bias against U.S.-based airlines, if I can take my experiences into account. What do you think?

[mike carey]

Well, you're set up to be able to conduct your own experiment by flying AA for the first sector, although a shorter sector on JAL may not be strictly comparable to a relatively longer one on AA. That doesn't help you to decide now! I've read that commercial factors may figure in Skytrax ratings and I haven't flown on enough different airlines to judge their accuracy. That said, the ratings will give you some idea, and you've sought confirmation from someone in the industry. With the best of advice, preferences are in part subjective, so you might rate the two differently to someone else.

@BenjaminNicholas may have flown both so he may be able to offer an opinion.

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

Skytrax has, more than once, has been accused of taking kickbacks for stars. 

For example, their routine suspiciously high ratings of short-haul LH is questionable considering the tight 3-across J class seating and the pedestrian catering.

That said, I'd fly JAL over AA, anyday, anytime...  And I'm a CK with AA.  

Japan tends to run their cabins a little warmer than US-based airlines, but their hard and soft product beat AA's international product with ease.  Added, JAL's lounges are eons beyond an Admirals Club (or even Flagship).

As @mike careysaid, it's all subjective in the end.  As long as you're flying within OneWorld, you're still getting mileage and LPs.  You might as well be as comfortable as possible on that long haul.

Edited May 11, 2022 by BenjaminNicholas

[mike carey]

45 minutes ago, BenjaminNicholas said:

Added, JAL's lounges are eons beyond an Admirals Club (or even Flagship).

It will be a JAL lounge at Haneda for the transit time, but at LAX which terminals do the flights depart from? If AA departs from 4 or 5 and JAL from Bradley, flying on JAL will give you access to the QF First lounge (assuming it's open) if you're OW Emerald (AA Exec Platinum or Platinum Pro). That's worth considering if you'll be there in enough time to take advantage of it.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, mike carey said:

It will be a JAL lounge at Haneda for the transit time, but at LAX which terminals do the flights depart from? If AA departs from 4 or 5 and JAL from Bradley, flying on JAL will give you access to the QF First lounge (assuming it's open) if you're OW Emerald (AA Exec Platinum or Platinum Pro). That's worth considering if you'll be there in enough time to take advantage of it.

Yes, I'm Emerald. All flights to Haneda leave from the Bradley terminal. 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, BenjaminNicholas said:

...

That said, I'd fly JAL over AA, anyday, anytime...  And I'm a CK with AA.  

...

As the most peripatetic poster on this website, your recommendation carries the greatest weight for me. Thanks for your recommendation.

Depart
Los Angeles, CA to Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam

Tuesday, January 3, 2023 to Thursday, January 5, 2023

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Flight	Depart	Arrive	Travel time	Class	Seats
8453 American Airlines Operated by Japan Airlines Boeing 777-300	12:40 PM LAX	5:30 PM HND Arrives January 4	11h 50m	Business	— —
Overnight flight or connection
	Stop: Tokyo, Japan (HND)
8493 American Airlines Operated by Japan Airlines Boeing 787	1:30 AM HND Departs January 5	5:50 AM SGN Arrives January 5	6h 20m	Business	— —

Return
Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam to Los Angeles, CA

Saturday, January 21, 2023 to Sunday, January 22, 2023

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Flight	Depart	Arrive	Travel time	Class	Seats
8494 American Airlines Operated by Japan Airlines Boeing 787	11:50 PM SGN	6:55 AM HND Arrives January 22	5h 5m	Business	— —
Overnight flight or connection
	Stop: Tokyo, Japan (HND)
8423 American Airlines Operated by Japan Airlines Boeing 777-300	4:25 PM HND Departs January 22	9:20 AM LAX Arrives January 22

[+ nycman]

You made the right choice. 

I’ve flown JAL NYC-Tokyo First class. They were lovely flights.

I’m not a huge fan of AA International “First" class….it’s just not. 

Edited May 11, 2022 by nycman

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

18 hours ago, nycman said:

I’m not a huge fan of AA International “First" class….it’s just not. 

 

[Guest]

On 5/11/2022 at 2:59 PM, nycman said:

You made the right choice. 

I’ve flown JAL NYC-Tokyo First class. They were lovely flights.

I’m not a huge fan of AA International “First" class….it’s just not. 

Are you really comparing AA's first class (seen only in their 3-class A321T's and international 777-300ER's)? 

This is what it's like in 1st Class in the A321T's:

 

And in their 777's:

 

Not Emirates, but probably compares favorably to most international 1st class (only been once on the 321T, upgraded from Business).

[Guest]

One really shouldn't compare JAL 1st to AA Business. This is the seating arrangement for my JAL flight from LAX to HND:

 

When going from LAX to HND, American doesn't have a first class, but if you compare Business to Business, I'd rather have AA's seating arrangement:

Notice that in AA's business, all seats have aisle access, including the window seats. JAL's business class even has a middle seat with neither window nor aisle access. 

Also, I tried to get seat assignments on JAL's website, and it wouldn't let me access it. I used JAL's record locator, and tried spelling my name every way imaginable, first name only, first and middle, first and middle with no space, all lower case, all caps, no way to get it. JAL absolutely positively will not answer their customer service line. Try it right now. You'll see. Although American isn't responsible for seating assignments on JAL, fortunately they answered their phone in 4 minutes flat and got me the seats I wanted:

[+ Lucky]

12 hours to Japan, then an 8 hour layover, then 6 more hours, arriving Ho Chi Minh City at 5:30 am.

Not for me.

[+ nycman]

17 hours ago, Unicorn said:

Are you really comparing AA's first class….?

Yes….I know what I’m talking about. 

Did you even watch the first video you posted?
He literally says AA First isn’t on par with most Asian First class.
It’s more comparable to Asian business class. Which I total agree with. 

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

AA's F product, domestic or international is fine, but it's hampered by AA service and training.

JAL is going to be better in almost every single way.  From ground services, to lounges to in-air experience.

AA is about to debut new international J seating with privacy doors.  I was a part of the beta test for them at homebase in DFW, testing these and other new concepts for F seating.  It was interesting.  Good stuff coming.

That said, AA will always be hampered by FAs (and their unions) that kill as much of the premium pax experience as possible.

[Guest MikeThomas]

Probably a bit of topic…

Just flew British Airways Club Europe.  What a joke.  Coach seating (3 and 3) with the middle seat blocked.  No extra leg room.  Awful.  They did manage food and drinks between LHR and AMS.  
 

I flew BA business a few years ago.  2 - 3 - 2.  To give the middle seat passenger his food, they had to reach over me after I had to lower the privacy screen. 
 

I avoid BA as much as possible.  Beware of the fine print… AA xxx operated by British Airways.

[+ BenjaminNicholas]

7 hours ago, MikeThomas said:

Probably a bit of topic…

Just flew British Airways Club Europe.  What a joke.  Coach seating (3 and 3) with the middle seat blocked.  No extra leg room.  Awful.  They did manage food and drinks between LHR and AMS.  
 

I flew BA business a few years ago.  2 - 3 - 2.  To give the middle seat passenger his food, they had to reach over me after I had to lower the privacy screen. 
 

I avoid BA as much as possible.  Beware of the fine print… AA xxx operated by British Airways.

BA is the AA of the UK.  (That sounds like it could have been the name of an '80s Top of the Pops song)

However...  I have to be fair.  If you can somehow snag their equipment that has the 'new' J-class Club Suite, it's not too shabby.  It's been well over two years since they started rolling it out and it's been SLOW AS HELL getting to all of their larger birds.

They say the end of this year will see them 90%+ complete.  I somehow don't believe that.

For reference:  https://onemileatatime.com/british-airways-a350-business-class-review/ 

[EZEtoGRU]

10 hours ago, BenjaminNicholas said:

AA's F product, domestic or international is fine, but it's hampered by AA service and training.

JAL is going to be better in almost every single way.  From ground services, to lounges to in-air experience.

That said, AA will always be hampered by FAs (and their unions) that kill as much of the premium pax experience as possible.

I mostly agree with Ben here.  On-board service is very mediocre on AA.  I attribute it partially to union work rules and protections (AA FA's are rewarded primarily based on seniority not based on performance) but I also blame very low food and beverage budgets for the F & J cabins.   There is virtually no truly premium alcohol served in AA first class.  It's mostly the same stuff you buy on board back in economy.  They do carry some decent wines sometimes in long-haul first/business class.  The food options in first are uninspiring.  No caviar.  No lobster.  No Kobe beef.  Those are the sort of options a real long-haul first class product should be offering.  I don't particularly blame the training they receive.  AA understands what a true first class experience should be but I think they are resigned to the fact that it isn't possible with the current FA union protections.

As to the state of the current BA, Ben is also correct that BA has become the British version of AA.  Their J cabin is to be avoided at all cost due to the cabin layout (although I agree with Ben that the few aircraft with the redesigned J cabin are almost certainly better).  Even the F experience on BA had become lackluster years back.  I have not been on BA for awhile so I cannot speak of how things are now.  However I did fly in BA F from LHR to ORD in October 2019.  The cabin itself was very drab and uninspiring.  The food was just like on AA...nothing special.  The on-board service was mixed.  The one flight attendant took pride in her job and was very friendly/attentive.  The other was not the least bit interested.  He just wanted to get to Chicago ASAP.  My main enjoyment from that flight was it was a 747 (my favorite widebody aircraft) and I cherish having been able to fly her again.  BA has since retired all their 747's. Anyway, BA F class has really fallen in the last 4-5 years to become just like AA.  I believe the only European carriers where one can still get a real first class long-haul experience is on AF and LH.  The other European carriers either no longer offer an F cabin (KL/IB/TP) or they have an imposter F class (BA). 

[Guest]

There have only been a couple of times in my life I've flown 1st class with a 3-class long-haul aircraft. So I can only compare business. I definitely prefer AA to BA, United, Finnair, or SAA (though they're not OneWorld, they actually code-shared with AA, at least they did 5 years ago). I suppose for what they charge for 1st class international, they should have some pricey edibles, including Osetra caviar and lobster, I suppose. In August I'll sample Delta's business, since AA has no codeshares which fly in to Keflavik, Iceland from North America, (I'm definitely not going to fly to LHR then back to KEF). I'm not sure when I'll ever fly First in a 3-class long-haul.... 😉

[+ nycman]

4 hours ago, Unicorn said:

I suppose for what they charge for 1st class international, they should have some pricey edibles, including Osetra caviar and lobster, I suppose.

You’re supposing a lot in that sentence….grin

I agree with the above posts that FA Unions kill any chance of true First Class service on any American based airline. I have several FA friends who have crazy seniority with AA. It’s insane the shit they get away with. And believe me, they are well aware of the crappy service they are providing.

As for food/drink, I rarely eat or drink on a flight, so it’s meaningless to me.  When I must, I usually just go for a cheese plate and/or a glass of champagne. I’ve never had a "great" or really even "good" meal on a plane. On JL the ramen is usually a safe bet as well. I really just want a polite FA and a nice cabin. 

I would rank First class on international 3-class flights that I’ve flown.…

EK>>LX>> LH>JL>BA>>AA

I will (and have) flown EK and LX to the ends of the earth and back. Both are stellar experiences in my book. I don’t hate BA as much as some here seem to. It’s a functional way to get from JFK to LHR, and that’s enough for me.  I have sadly never flown SQ but it’s said to be among the best. 

4 hours ago, Unicorn said:

I'm not sure when I'll ever fly First in a 3-class long-haul

Break open that piggy bank bro!
Maybe a little less for the endowment and a little more for the endower?…..grin 

Edited May 30, 2022 by nycman

[Guest]

6 hours ago, nycman said:

You’re supposing a lot in that sentence….grin

...

Break open that piggy bank bro!
Maybe a little less for the endowment and a little more for the endower?…..grin 

Yes, well, I was quite tired after a long day boozing it up on Pensacola Beach...😉🤪

I've flown BA and AA multiple times in business class, and strongly prefer AA. The seating is better, the meals are better, and the service is better. BA even charges you extra to get an assigned seat in business!! I don't think any other airline on the planet does that. The last time my beau and I flew business on BA, one of the stewardesses literally would not let me wait outside the lavatory when I had to take a pee! This made it almost impossible to take a pee since my seat was not near the lavatory. I had to wait until she was out of sight. 

I agree that the better Asian airlines do better than most western hemisphere or European airlines. The only long-haul I've taken on an Asian airline was Singapore from Frankfurt to Singapore, which was indeed nicer than AA. Also about 7 years ago on Cathay Pacific (SFO to Hong Kong), but that was Premium Economy, not business. I also was very impressed by Hainan Airlines business from Peking to Shanghai, but that was not a long-haul flight.

For me, the extra expense from business to first class seems like a complete waste. It seems silly to spend thousands more just for some nicer champagne, lobster, and caviar. I can get that on land if I really want it. I do want to leave a tidy sum for a scholarship program for LGBT university students who've had a rough time due to their family situation, and I also don't want to leave my partner "Chris" destitute when I die, assuming we make it that long. I can sleep perfectly well on a business class seat, so spending substantially more for first seems frivolous for me--especially when there are many needy people.