When does friendship disrupt an escort/client relationship?

[Guest Everett]

The topic of whether escorts and clients can be friends has been covered here, but my question is a little different.

 

I've seen a particular escort for five overnight appointments since December. We're both the same age. I'm new to the gay and club scene, and when we go out to a club it's reassuring for me to have him around. He lives a few hours west of me by plane. In between when we meet we keep in touch with infrequent emails and phone calls. I've told him personal information about myself, and always respect his thoughts and opinions. He had told me a little about himself during our first overnight, and he tells me about things that are happening in his life like one would tell any friend. He's done some nice things for me that only one friend would do for another. I put a lot of trust in him and have done things with him I've never done before.

 

The last time we were together I got the impression he had a boyfriend, which he had not revealed and had denied in the past. I asked him about it when we were alone, and he said he had one, and that they'd been together for a number of years. He said he didn't want to discuss this, and I apologized for bringing up this subject. I wasn't surprised when I learned this - he's too nice and too good looking not to have a boyfriend. Later on he went into a lot of detail about his past, some of which contradicted what he'd told me originally. He said he wanted to tell me these things about himself for awhile now. He didn't discuss his relationship, and I didn't ask him anything else. All this is his business, and I said anything he wants to tell me about himself is up to him - I don't want to pry.

 

He also said that he thinks of me as a friend, that I'm important to him in his life, and that he wants to remain in touch with me for a long time to come. I feel the same way about him, and told him I think of him as a friend, too. This may sound like a way for him to manipulate me and to keep me as a client, despite everything he's told me (and I don't think anything less of him - maybe he thought I would). I've been around him enough, met some of his friends (and we even have a common friend we didn't realize we had until a few months ago), and from just hanging out with him and talking about things I believe that I know him well enough at least to see through whether this idea of friendship is just a "line." I don't think it is, I think he's sincere.

 

Should I continue with this escort/client relationship? I truly value him as a friend, and don't want to do anything to hurt that friendship or do anything that could be seen as disrespecting him or his relationship with his boyfriend. I also don't want him to think that this is the price he pays for being honest, that I don't make appointments with him as a client anymore.

[Guest elwood]

Everret,

Great honest post and Lipsticks reply is awesome...this is the best thing about this site.Can't add anything..except "you can't buy love or friendship" and the wisdom of lipsticks' thought that if friendship comes to the fore..then the sex may fade...is right on the mark.Both love and friendship are FAR more valuable than sex.And that is saying a lot because sex is WAY valuable..even worth paying for.But,in perspective , love...friendship,honor,self respect, are way ahead of sex (and good food,wine,music are at least as good}.Best of luck.

[Guest lipstick]

Well, this is an interesting one. Interesting because I have gone through this situation. I too have been seeing an escort monthly for about a year now, but things came to a head one night when the sex was just awful; he knew it, I knew it, but he was the one to speak up. Obviously, the sex part just was one part of the situation. It just peaked at a time when a lot of other things had already been developing beneath the surface.

 

The problem there, and I think maybe your problem also, is that escort/client relationships are first business arrangements. It is understood and certainly expected that folks are supposed to be on their best behaivor for the duration of the session or overnighter. And even in the most honest of client/escort relationships, there is a concern, if there are good-hearted people involved, that feelings are not hurt if emotions are felt "beyond" the session. In my case,

I thought something was not going right, but I didn't address it because: 1) this is a business arrangement, 2) if I do bring it up, it might end the business arrangement. Frankly, I was too afraid to have the arrangement end because it would have meant rejection, and all the other emotions that go along with that. On the other hand, the escort guy, bless his heart, also knew that I would have been hurt. And why spoil it if this is only done once a month, right?

 

Well, to make a long story short, we did have a "confrontation", then an in -depth and honest discussion about what was going on here, and how were we supposed to get on with it, if even that. We've gotten over it; we are at a true emotional honesty with each other, and with his support, I'm going to broaden my own Gay life and non-escort sex life.

 

The reason I have gone into this detail about my situation is to point out that you have given us your escort's point of view (or what you THINK is his point of view) and his situation as you perceive it, but you have not given us hardly ANY IDEA of where YOU ARE COMING FROM! Because your situation, in fact ANY client/escort relationship, is a two way street.

 

What do YOU really want out of this? Do you see this guy as potential boy-friend material? What would happen if you DID pry??? Also keep in mind that if he's good escort, he may have several clients that he may treat in the same manner.

 

So in a strange and ironic way, when does a frienship disrupt an escort/client relationship DEPENDS on the type of escort relationship you currently have or WANT.

 

I know I make this sound like a regular relationship, but from what you've said, it looks like you two have already crossed that line. And again, as with a "regular" relationship, whether you and he continue it or not depends on the both of you, and you can't easily get there without talking about it openly and honestly, which could be a major roadblock.

 

The other dilemma you may face is that if you two become true friends, there may be no more sex. Is that important for you? Or if there is continuing sex, you may never be able ever get through to him the way I think you would like to get through to him, i.e., as a friend.

 

It can be a really difficult situation, since there seems to be more emotional feeling involved here than just doing the nasty with a good looking, friendly guy whom you are paying for companionship.

 

Best of luck to the both of you, whatever happens....I really mean that!!

[guyinsf]

My concern about what you describe is the escort's contradictory statements. Is he deliberately lying; if so, for what gain? Also, if so, it definitely supports one being suspicious about whether he is honest about wanting to be long-term friends.

 

You don't delineate what contradictions he has presented. I can understand an escort lying about his age or name. I can even imagine an escort not divulging his relationship status to a new client (though it seems like he could have just said he did not want to discuss that from the beginning instead of lying). If the guy is making up stories about his life to elicit a specific response from you (telling sad stories to gain your sympathy, making up grandiose stories to gain your admiration), I wonder what kind of friend he would make. If he is doing this unconciously then I would really be worried. Then again, if this contradictions are minor perhaps he just doesn't have a good long-term memory or has lost track of some details.

 

I'm not looking for lurid details to be exposed here. I'm posting these thoughts as a suggestion that you might want to look more closely at your relationship with this guy thus far and for you to decide what YOU want.

[Guest Ant415]

When money exchanges hands, I would tend to question the motives of a relationship. Stop meeting him for escort meetings, ie, no money handed over. See if he is still in touch.

[Guest Everett]

As far as what I want, I think of him as a friend and want to keep that friendship. I don't want to do anything that would hurt it. Friendships are rarer than good escort/client relationships. That could mean no more sex, and probably should mean that.

 

Now that I know he's in a relationship, it doesn't seem right to continue as we have been. He'll continue to escort. I don't want to portray this as a situation in which we are so close that I'm a threat to his relationship. It's a situation in which I like him too much as a person, and continuing to have sex would complicate a friendship that is there and that I want to keep and develop. Respect is an important part of friendship, and it feels disrespectful to ignore his relationship status in order to continue to have a good escort/client relationship.

 

I also realize that being with an escort is fundamentally an economic relationship. It's important to be realistic. When a client meets with an escort often enough, and confides in that escort about things in his life, that adds complications to this economic interaction. Feelings develop, to the point that one of you may be uncomfortable when that economic reality is mentioned by the other person.

 

As far as the new things he told me about himself that contradicted things he'd said in the past, those were things he'd told me about his family situation and childhood. According to what he told me the last time we were together, he's had a much more difficult and disruptive family life than he first admitted. He also went into more detail about how he got into escorting. My feeling is that he's not saying these things to be manipulative or elicit sympathy.

 

Whatever happens, I need to talk to him about where we go from here. What are our expectations? What is the true nature of this situation? What are we looking for from each other? How do we get there from here? These are some of the issues that need to be addressed.

[Rod Hagen]

Strong stuff here. Isn't it interesting how big of a deal sex really can be isn't it? On the one hand sex can be used just to scratch an itch, like shopping or getting a massage. And I think that's about all it is for some of the posters here, and that's a good thing, that's what escorts are here for, to provide a service to those who want it. For that reason those posters must just pull their hair out when they read threads like this: "What are you thinking? He's a hustler, fuck him and leave." Sex is just supposed to be fun, not complicated. They have a point of course. But it can't be denied that from time to time sex really ties some people together. God knows why: confused biology I suppose. And we can't always separate the feelings we develop for someoen from the sex. This is beautiful and tragic.

 

Primarily these days I'm seeing one man in particular. Once a week we meet for sex lunch and LOTS of conversation. We talk a lot about this site, interestingly enough. During the week I'll someti mes read or hear somehting and think "I can't wait to tell Skinny Dick about that". We're strong friends, we're fuckbuddies, and on top of all that there's parent-son feelings there too. HOLY SHIT. We've developed a real relationship, which is good. However, last night dwhile having Starbucks with my Monkey we were talking about this very subject, as well as my confusion over the guy who fucks me and REALLY feels like my father (see Lounge) and Monkey asked where he fits into all this. At first I wondered if he was suggesting he should meet these 2 or 3 men who've become more to me. But what he was asking was if I have all these individula ties to THEM, isn't he jus tanother unique relationship; maybe fuckbuddie/friend #4? After all there's not much different between what I do with them, how I relate o them, and how I do with and relate to him. HOLY SHIT. Of course they pay me and he doesn't, but that's really neither here nor there as that's what I do for a living. But good lord, I've actually tied myself strongly to a couple of men and they AREN"T the man who's supposed to be the center of my world. How the hell did that happen?

 

So when does the friendship disrupt an escort/client relationship? I don't know, but when it becomes more than a friendship, you gotta believe you have a RELATIONSHIP. A nontraditional sort, but you two are twined. There's no stronger pull than emotional attachment combined with sex ONCE YOU'VE ALLOWED the sex to progress beyond scratching an itch, and you find yourself thinking about the client/escort several times a day. You have to understand that there's somethign big, and maybe dangerous, but definitely large going on. Don't just drop it.

[ad rian]

>So when does the friendship disrupt an escort/client

>relationship? I don't know, but when it becomes more than a

>friendship, you gotta believe you have a RELATIONSHIP. A

>nontraditional sort, but you two are twined. There's no

>stronger pull than emotional attachment combined with sex

>ONCE YOU'VE ALLOWED the sex to progress beyond scratching an

>itch, and you find yourself thinking about the client/escort

>several times a day. You have to understand that there's

>somethign big, and maybe dangerous, but definitely large

>going on. Don't just drop it.

 

Wow, that was good! I am dealing with this too, but my question is when you reach that stage shouldn't the commercial "relationship" end too? If so, how? Someone suggested on another thread that ending the commercial angle also ended the escort's easy availability and then the friendship ended soon. In your case, if the commerce ended, your relationship with your Monkey would inevitably change too. Strange! How does one steer this in the right direction?

[Rod Hagen]

I've never understood this POV that states the payments have to stop in order for the friendship to be real. Getting paid to spend time with men is what we do. If we're great friends on top of that, it's a bonus. But if people just stopped paying us because they wanted to test the strength of the relationship, well that's not very respectful of the Escort's career choice is it? You can be friends with someone and give them money too. They are not mutually exclusive conditions. And for some reason people can't get passed the mind-fuck of Paying For Friendship. It's what we do for a living, if you love us let us work for you.

[+ deej]

>How does one steer this in the right

>direction?

 

One doesn't *cause* it to happen, sadly. Relationships happen or they do not.

 

I have one regular who has turned into a friend/fuck buddy. I used to call him every month or so and over time we got to know each other quite well.

 

At some point, *HE* started calling *ME* just to go for a couple of drinks or dinner, or whatever. Sometimes it was his treat, sometimes mine. (More often his, actually.) He eventually asked why I didn't call any more and I explained that I thought maybe we'd moved beyond that. We had a long talk and decided we had indeed, but he missed the fun we used to have in the sack.

 

Now he also calls when he's just horny and wants a big dick up his ass, and I sometimes call him. We haven't exchanged money in a couple of years.

 

With another guy, we became so close we can't even have sex. For me, it would be too much like fucking my little brother. We're literally so close that when we're together we finish each other's sentences. People have asked us if we're related. (I tell them I'm his evil twin brother. }> )

 

I didn't "steer" either of these situations into place. They evolved. The hellish part is in knowing when to allow the evolution. You can't cause it, but you can open the door and allow it.

 

Honesty is the key, I think. You both have to be honest, and not just with each other. You both have to be honest with yourselves and that's a DAMN difficult thing to do!

[duke37]

> You can be friends with someone and give them money too. They are not mutually exclusive conditions.

 

You can be friends with your hairdresser/barber and still pay him for a haircut can't you. Not to trivialize it too badly but Andy Griffith paid Floyd the Barber and was still able to be friends.

 

And for some reason people can't get

>passed the mind-fuck of Paying For Friendship.

 

I can pay for an entertaining time with a hot guy. I can't put a pricetag on friendship. The friends I have made have been a wonderful bonus. For me the intimacy is an accelerant in positive feelings I have for people. I don't think I can have sex with someone and not be fond of them, even a little bit, even if the chemistry was lousy, but I haven't become friends with all of them.

 

Hasn't everyone here become good friends with someone at work? Someone you really enjoy talking to and sharing with. Someone you really miss when you or they leave to take on a new job. And when they are gone you drift apart. Wasn't that a real friendship as well? When the accelerant of proximity was removed the impetus to be close was removed as well. Maybe it would be better to not try and push all of our friendships into a one-size-fits-all box?

 

I am glad others have posted the advice to be honest and communicate. Thats great advice that I would echo and they said it better than I would anyway.

 

Jeff

[ad rian]

>Getting

>paid to spend time with men is what we do. If we're great

>friends on top of that, it's a bonus. But if people just

>stopped paying us because they wanted to test the strength

>of the relationship, well that's not very respectful of the

>Escort's career choice is it? You can be friends with

>someone and give them money too. They are not mutually

>exclusive conditions.

 

Personally, I pay for sex, not companionship, yet I would say that get along well with all my escorts. Some of them, I consider to be "friends", and as as I have pointed out on another thread, a very small number I have seen a "relationship" develop. Paying for sex, does not mean one is not "friendly" and respectful to the escort, but to go beyond that to "friendship" or a "relationship", I can't see how money can be exchanged. I can see certain payments in kind, but not if they are calculated to equal the escorts hourly rate. That would seem un-natural to me.

[Guest soccerstud]

Great topic. And I can't believe that this issue (relationships between escorts and clients that go beyond sex) isn't broadly applicable. Sure, you see lots of postings from some who make it clear that one of their thrills is to discover new bodies to try. Far more reviews and posts here, it seems to me, refer to escorts or clients that they see regularly or periodically. The latter relationship obviously starts out--and remains--a commercial one; but it would seem virtually impossible for either participant to ignore those kinds of emotions that normally follow as a relationship becomes deeper and/or more frequent.

 

Part of what turns me on in seeing escorts is to have great sex and to get to know him a little. (Indeed, it's probably true that the greater the connection, the better the sex, even if the connection is only a bit past the surface. Saw an escort for the first--and last--time awhile ago who obviously didn't want to talk about his life, background, interests; and that made the experience--for me--a very shallow, unsatisfying one, even though the sex was pretty good.)

 

I've had 2 very close, long relationships with escorts. The first was with an escort who helped me through the coming out process. For awhile, he was the ONLY confidant I had to talk with. I will be forever grateful to him. (Would take far too long to recount all those details.) And I became a good friend of his, trying to help him through some issues. We continued to have sex--for pay. But it was impossible not to become emotionally intertwined, as we opened up to each other some of our deepest thoughts. (I would think this occurs more frequently than one would imagine, simply because the escort is not a part of one's "regular" life and therefore I ,at least, could feel "safer" in disclosing and talking about some of the most private and intimate issues, having complete confidence in his discretion.) Interesting, it was he who, one day, told me that we would have to stop having sex, because the combination of sex and the emotional intimacy was becoming too much for him to handle and, of course, I respected that.

 

I have developed a totally comfortable and close relationship with a second escort that I have been seeing for more than a year. We have absolutely great sex usually once a week. But we share a lot more over lunches, drives, emails and cuddling after sex. Some of what we share deals with gay and sex issues; much deals with books, movies, politics, business, our respective futures. We are very different, but that's totally part of the fascination. We both know that it's NOT in any respect a romantic relationship. Even though he's half my age, it's not--I don't think--a father/son relationship. IT'S FRIENDSHIP. Yes, money changes hands (from mine to his)after sex. And this has led to enormous--and unfounded--insecurity on my part that he may be there only because of the money. But deep down, I know he's become a good friend. And I am richer for the experience. (And he is too--in both ways.)

 

As Rod said, why would either party deny himself the opportunity to gain a friend and open new vistas. As long as both know what the grounds rules are (different, I am sure in each case). But I know that (1) there is no romantic element to the relationship, and (2)even though both may completely enjoy the sex, it would stop if the escort retired or if money weren't a component. But that decidedly doesn't mean the friendship would end. I have grown enormously because of these 2 friendships and for that, I am completely grateful.

[ad rian]

>I didn't "steer" either of these situations into place. They

>evolved. The hellish part is in knowing when to allow the

>evolution. You can't cause it, but you can open the door and

>allow it.

>

>Honesty is the key, I think. You both have to be honest, and

>not just with each other. You both have to be honest with

>yourselves and that's a DAMN difficult thing to do!

 

I think you have nailed this one!

[Rick Munroe]

>Hasn't everyone here become good friends with someone at

>work? Someone you really enjoy talking to and sharing with.

>Someone you really miss when you or they leave to take on a

>new job. And when they are gone you drift apart. Wasn't that

>a real friendship as well? When the accelerant of proximity

>was removed the impetus to be close was removed as well.

>Maybe it would be better to not try and push all of our

>friendships into a one-size-fits-all box?

 

Excellent point, Jeff; I've used the same analogy often. I've made close friends at every job I've ever had...friends I no longer see because we each moved on. In the "Mary & Rhoda" TV-movie, I was disappointed that Mary hadn't kept in touch with Murray & Mr. Grant but that's how life goes. Mr. Grant was still Mary's boss, even tho they loved each other & thought of each other as family. I can love my clients and still maintain my professionalism, and still expect to be paid my fee. It doesn't mean I can't be human & develop feelings for you guys.

 

I'm hungry again.

[FrancoDiSantisxxx]

Friendship disrupt an escort/client relationship?

 

The first response was excellent so I will limit myself to two comments. In my own case, I have become friends with former clients to the point that we have gone out together and I have made them dinner or they have let me use their home in Palm Springs. In one instance, as this saved me on a hotel expense, I cleaned (top to bottom) this man's kitchen (even behind the oven and fridge). I no longer have sex with them, they no longer pay me, but if they wanted sex, I would not provide it, with or without pay. I think Rod's point is very valid, but it is a very individual choice.

 

My second point is last night in San Francisco, I wanted to sleep with a former client, we had never done that before but we had joked about napping together (my favorite activity after tanning, which I cannot do in 54 degree weather). We discussed very clearly that no sex was happening and that this was not a hire and yet in the morning, after I had pulled my tee shirt off due to the heat, he took his clothes off and started to initiate sex. It made things slightly uncomfortable and while we salvaged things, sex would have been the wrong path at that precise moment.

 

Best of luck with your situation and I think your best answer is to also ask him what he wants and how he feels if you continued to hire him and how he would feel if you did not, especially if you told him why.

 

Love is no substitute for sex but sex is not substitute for frienship.

[Rod Hagen]

>I can see certain payments in

>kind, but not if they are calculated to equal the escorts

>hourly rate. That would seem un-natural to me.

 

But why? That's how he earns his living. If he's your friend I'd think you'd WANT to pay him.

[Rod Hagen]

>relationship. Even though he's half my age, it's not--I

>don't think--a father/son relationship.

 

SHOP GIRL!!! :-) }>

[Rod Hagen]

>>relationship. Even though he's half my age, it's not--I

>>don't think--a father/son relationship.

>

>SHOP GIRL!!! :-) }>

 

I meant SHOPGIRL (one word).

[ad rian]

>If he's your

>friend I'd think you'd WANT to pay him.

 

Not really. I provide some legal services for my closest friends without expecting payment. Some of my friends have performed real estate services for me without charging their commission. I guess I want to draw a distinction between "friendliness" and "friendship". The situation you describe where the commercial trnsaction persists seems like a friendly one to me, but not one of friendship. That's not bad though because the best encounters are always those that underpinned with friendliness and mutual respect. However, the very best encounters in my view are those that move on to friendship.

 

As readers of my posts on the thread about escorts falling in love with their clients will know, I have been grappling with this issue recently. Last night, I realized that neither "love" or a "relationship" are what the escort has in mind. I am very uncomfortable by the deepening friendship, and for my own emotional protection I have decided to pull away. Ironically, if we had both just stayed "friendly" (instead of pursuing friendship) and had continued to have great sex, he might have become a longer term regular.

[Rod Hagen]

> The situation you describe

>where the commercial trnsaction persists seems like a

>friendly one to me, but not one of friendship.

 

Specifically, why? Why is it friendly to pay someone, but can't be done out of friendship? What do you think your reasons are for feeling this way?

[ad rian]

>Specifically, why? Why is it friendly to pay someone, but

>can't be done out of friendship? What do you think your

>reasons are for feeling this way?

 

 

I am not sure but all that I can tell you is that when my friends charge me for services, I feel insulted and invariably it affects the relationship. Of course, in order for this to work it must be mutual and reciprocal. The times when I have been tempted to charge friends for services have arisen only after they have tried to charge me first. I guess I think helping a friend out is part of the definition so charging seems to be outside the definition. Could it be cultural? Are some cultures so monetized that these kind of social exchanges do not matter?

 

I am clear that I pay for sex not companionship. Maybe when I am old and gray that might change, but as of now I pay for sex so paying for friendship seems weird and pathetic to me, bearing in mind the distinction I drew between "friendliness" and "friendship".

 

One last point specific to escorting. At the point of transition from friendliness to friendship, I think the escort is enjoying it as much as I am, and so perhaps I should be paid too or better yet no money should change hand. Let me stress that the times where an escort encounter makes that transition will be very few, but not zero.

[Rod Hagen]

>One last point specific to escorting. At the point of

>transition from friendliness to friendship, I think the

>escort is enjoying it as much as I am

 

But that implies that as soon as an escort starts enjoying himself he should no longer be paid.

[ad rian]

>But that implies that as soon as an escort starts enjoying

>himself he should no longer be paid.

 

Yes, I think so, but I am speaking only of those rally intense encounters where a "friendship" and the shring that is part of that has ocurred. If an escort enjoys it in the "friendly" and mutually respectful sense of a professional relationship than he shopuld still be paid in my view.

[guyinsf]

It sounds like he is becoming closer to you. Revealing pains about one's childhood usually doesn't happen on a first meeting, especially if one is still signficantly troubled by what happened.

 

I disagree about a few other things you said, however, though I respect your right to act on what you believe to be true. I do not think that continuing to pay him for sex, knowing he is in a relationship, is disrespectful. He is an escort. If you aren't paying him someone else is. Apparently his significant other accepts him escorting, or he would have made the choice to end the relationship. As to the potential discomfort regarding exchange of money, I don't see that this has to be an issue. I am friends with an escort whom I see regularly. When we get together as friends, money does not exchange hands (though either one of us might pick up the tab). When we arrange an overnighter, I know I am paying and I know the fee. I just give it to him or put it with his clothes at some point. I can accept that having sex and sleeping with him isn't free but that the occasional social outing is.