When does friendship disrupt an escort/client relationship?

[guyinsf]

If the escort enjoys having sex with you as much as you do with him, and he would choose to have sex with you for free, then I totally agree that the financial part of the relationship should end. Does this escort enjoy being with you, hence he enjoys having sex with you; or does this escort now actually physically desire you like he would a boyfriend or another sex partner of his choosing?

 

My experience is that while I have developed a genuine friendship with an escort, I realize that the friendship is separate from the sex. Yes, we are also friends when I hire him, but we also have sex on the occasions for which I pay. Why? We wouldn't have sex or sleep together otherwise. When we just get together to do something friends would do together, I don't pay. Why? Because I don't pay people just to hang out with them.

[DaninWA]

I would never consider not paying a friend for his professional service, unless the friend specifically offered the service without charge.

 

In my opinion, to expect a friend to give you free service, simply because he is your friend, is wrong and insulting. This is how he earns a living. Again, it would be different if that friend offered the service without charge, but I would never expect it as a condition of friendship.

 

Perhaps I'm just strange.

 

Dan

[Rod Hagen]

Dan, you're very strange. Such logical thinking isn't allowed. BACK spawn of satan!

[ad rian]

>Dan, you're very strange. Such logical thinking isn't

>allowed. BACK spawn of satan!

 

Hey, Rod, that's not fair. I tried to answer your question honestly and forthrightly. I really would like a similar response from you.

[chrismac]

RE: Friendship disrupt an escort/client relationship?

 

This is a very interesting topic to be sure. And all the posters have had equally interesting and intelligent things to say on it.

 

I agree with bits of everything here, but as in most things, each person's own experiences will determine how they see the application to themselves.

 

I agree with ad rian's distinction of "friendliness" vs. "friendship" - and I think that was very well stated. I always strive for friendly interactions with my clients in my business, as it not only creates a better atmosphere for future business, but there's enough crap going on in today's world, so everyone (including myself) appreciates friendly, positive, constructive encounters versus adversarial ones. The coveted "win-win" situations.

 

In some instances, however, I can see genuine friendships develop from business dealings. I define these by thinking if I want to spend my "free" time with the person(s), their families - beyond the professional entertaining I might do with that person. If I invite one of my clients out to dinner, and we discuss things in general, but I did it for the pure enjoyment of meeting this person - and I don't put the receipt on my company's expense - that indicates I've done it out of friendship. I had no particular business goal in mind with the invitation. Mind you - I would only do this after it's clear we're friends (mutually understood, if not acknowledged) - and that doesn't happen all that often. But it does happen. Also I consider whether I would be contacting this person if he/she were no longer one of my clients, vendors, or distributors. If the answer is yes, well, there it is.

 

With an escort, I would not consider there to be real friendship if all the time spent in person was "on the clock". By that I mean, if the client contacts the escort for a "date" - the client should expect to pay for the time, regardless of the activity involved (if the client wants to take the escort to dinner, a show, have a massage, whatever). By contrast, if the escort considers the client to be a friend, and contacts the client to get together for a friendly chat over tea or lunch - the meeting wouldn't be out of friendship if the client were expected to pay for the time. Likewise, if the escort/client meeting is scheduled for an hour, the physical portion takes up that hour, but the escort and client enjoy some conversation afterwards (clearly by mutual desire), it's a little much to expect extra compensation for that conversation time. I don't think many escorts do, actually.

 

That's all a long way of saying, in my opinion, friends may charge each other for professional services (though this makes many uncomfortable, especially if the cost is for service and not product), but friends don't charge each other to get together for a friendly chat, or exchange of ideas.

[Rod Hagen]

>Hey, Rod, that's not fair. I tried to answer your question

>honestly and forthrightly. I really would like a similar

>response from you.

 

I only said he was logical, I did not say you were not. See how even-handed I am? :-)

[chrismac]

RE: Friendship disrupt an escort/client relationship?

 

Another point to add to this: I have friend who are lawyers, accountants, ISP owners, pianists - but I knew these people before they received their educations and experience, as they knew me before I became a professional in mine. We freely exchange advice on our respective professions from time to time, and per hour charges never come to the fore, much less to mind.

 

If, however, I met these individuals professionally first, then developed friendships over time, the equation would change somewhat I think. I may be friends with my lawyer (go out to dinner once in a while, go fishing, etc - all "off the clock"), but I wouldn't expect him to give me free legal advice - though he does this unsolicited from time to time during these social occasions. In the case of my friend who became a lawyer, by contrast; I may ask him for free legal advice on simple matters and I don't expect him to send me a bill. Same with the accountant, or the pianist when I want advice on which piano to buy. After all, they're more than willing to ring me up and ask for my free advice. ;-)

[ad rian]

RE: Friendship disrupt an escort/client relationship?

 

>If, however, I met these individuals professionally first,

>then developed friendships over time, the equation would

>change somewhat I think. I may be friends with my lawyer (go

>out to dinner once in a while, go fishing, etc - all "off

>the clock"), but I wouldn't expect him to give me free legal

>advice - though he does this unsolicited from time to time

>during these social occasions.

 

 

Why would the timing make a difference? Can you flesh that out some more?

[chrismac]

RE: Friendship disrupt an escort/client relationship?

 

That's a good question ad. I'm not sure exactly why it would make a difference, but I feel that when the friendship preceeded the professional relationship, the friendship aspect, like oil and vinegar, separates more easily and the friendship comes to the surface more naturally.

 

When two people were primarily professionally related, but a friendship develops, issues relating to one's profession can be a little more complicated. I know that's imprecise - but that's what I've found anyhow. Maybe I'm too sensitive to the subject.

[chrismac]

RE: Friendship disrupt an escort/client relationship?

 

Ad - a case in point just occured to me:

 

Some time ago, I asked a friend of mine (a lawyer) a legal question and asked for his advice. He said in order for him to give me such advice (I wasn't asking him to write a letter or brief in my behalf - just, what I considered, simple advice) - I should hire him.

 

I responded that I'd remember that the next time he needed my assistance, which he himself had requested on several occasions prior to this, that my cost would come to roughly $60/hour - a bargain because he was my friend. He laughed and told me he was just kidding. I said, "likewise." ;-)

[DaninWA]

"Spawn" of Satan? How dare you! I am the true Satan and don't you forget it.

 

Spawn indeed!x(

[pacnwescort]

The whole premise of this question is kind of bizarre for me. The clients who I have seen the longest and most regularly are definitely the ones I also consider friends. Becoming friends with them did not disrupt the relationship, it deepened it. I also don't view this any different than making friends in any other job I have worked in. Making friendships with people you "work" with is always a little bit of a challenge, but then friendship is always a bit of a challenge anyway. The worst I ever had to deal with was having one of my closest friends, who I worked with for a small non-profit, lay me off from a job because there was no longer enough money in the budget for two people. Ouch! Compared to the emotional intensity of that one, figuring out how to get paid for sex with someone I care about is easy.

 

Here's an interesting question that shines a different light on the topic: When does sex disrupt an escort/escort friendship? My best friend is an escort, we have known each other for 7 years, and we have never had sex together. It would be weird - I mean, can i suck his cock tonight and still ask his partner to cut my hair in the morning? :-) I'm making a lot of new escort friends, and generally we are deciding that it is easier to be friends if we don't have sex, UNLESS we are paid for it. Go figure! Partly because we are saving it all for our wonderful clients (yeah, right) and partly because it complicates a friendship to have to figure out the boundaries of how you have sex as friends without being lovers, or making the escort's partner jealous. (Unless the escort's lover is also an escort, or just a sex pig. The word for that is orgy). But more often than not, it just seems easier to keep our dicks in our pants, cause otherwise it complicates things.

 

From that perspective, the nice thing about escort/client relationships is that they come with fairly neat boundaries. Which is to say, you give money, and you get sex. It doesn't have to mean anything more than that, and often enough it doesn't. I guess the confusion comes when you decide, hey, I really like this guy, and he seems to really like me. But as long as you keep the focus on the simple truth, it's really not all that confusing.

 

One other point: in every other job I've held, when the job ends, the friendship usually either eventually ends, or at least becomes less central. The idea that "now that we don't work together, we can really be good friends" just isn't true in my experience. If anything, it's the opposite - I usually made friends with the people I work with because I spent so much time working, I figured it might as well be with my friends. As an escort, I guess I don't see it any different. So I'm not sure that the idea of giving up an escort/client relationship so you can be "true friends" makes a lot of sense. If I stopped escorting tomorrow, I would definitely continue to have a relationship with some of the clients I feel like I have grown to be friends with. But I also figure I would see a lot less of them, just because we would both move on to other things.

 

 

Steven

pacnwescort@aol.com

[ad rian]

>From that perspective, the nice thing about escort/client

>relationships is that they come with fairly neat boundaries.

> Which is to say, you give money, and you get sex. It

>doesn't have to mean anything more than that, and often

>enough it doesn't. I guess the confusion comes when you

>decide, hey, I really like this guy, and he seems to really

>like me. But as long as you keep the focus on the simple

>truth, it's really not all that confusing.

 

This is very interesting, but I guess the point is that the escort/client boundaries are not always so neatly manicured. I think the problem arises when one or both parties seem to form a bond beyond the mere commercial norm. I know what that norm should be, but there have been a few times when it has gone beyond that. In those cases, I am usually responding to something extra that the escort says or does consistently. So the question is whether in those cases, the escort means what he says or does or whether it is a kind of marketing bait and switch to get me to pay for an hour and a half instead of an hour or an overnight instead of two hours. If the latter is true,it does seem more than a bit manipulative to me.

[pacnwescort]

>

> I think the problem arises when one or both parties seem to

>form a bond beyond the mere commercial norm. I know what

>that norm should be, but there have been a few times when it

>has gone beyond that. So the question is whether in those cases,

>the escort means what he says or does or whether it is a

>kind of marketing bait and switch to get me to pay for an

>hour and a half instead of an hour or an overnight instead

>of two hours. If the latter is true,it does seem more than

>a bit manipulative to me.

 

Actually, the opposite is the case: becoming a friend with a client can cost me money, in a couple ways.

 

First, to the degree that time is money, there are a number of clients I have spent time with "off the clock." I obviously need a life, other than escorting, so I don't view clients as any different than non-clients when it comes to my personal life. Friends are friends, period. You don't get paid to be friends. When I chose to be with clients without pay, they are "friends." From a certain perspective, though, these clients are getting a "freebie" - time with me - that others clients don't get.

 

The difference is that I chose my friends, and also I chose whether to have sex with people who are not paying me to do so. So when I spend time with clients as "friends," the simple boundary is that there is no sex. If they want to have sex, they have to pay for it. While it sounds crass in a way (not to mention illegal) to say its money for sex, the ability to zero in on it is actually what makes it possible for me to spend time with clients of my choice "off the clock" without feeling like I am the one being manipulated or used.

 

Also, in at least a few instances, the feelings of concern I associate with "being friends" led me to encourage the end of an escort/client relationship. One of them is happening right now. Without going into detail, this client is someone who I don't think could have come out when we started our "working" relationship over a year ago. For a year, I have been encouraging him to come out, and to date. Eventually, it seems to me he will be happiest when he is spending his money on a boyfriend, not me. Guess what? He is starting to take my advice! In this case, being the guy's friend means diligently and methodically and gradually putting myself out of business, at least with him. Believe me, taking the money would be easier, if not ethical.

 

In other instances, becoming friends actually makes it easier to maintain an escort/client relationship, I think. For example, I have one regular client who told me that the time we spend together actually helps with his relationship with his partner, since he can get stuff from me that his partner doesn't like to give. (I'll leave the details to your imaginations). I have also started to become friends with the client's partner, so it is kind of all in the family, in a gay sort of way. This kind of arrangement is anything but manipulative. Everything is out in the open, and I love it!

 

I guess the other unstated component of navigating clients as friends, which is implicit in your comment, is that both parties have reasonably good bullshit detectors. If you get the feeling that an escort is pretending to be your friend to get you to hire him more often, or for longer periods of time, I can see why you would be put off. Likewise, I've ditched a few clients who decided we were friends and therefore expected we would spend more time "off the clock" together. In one instance, a client who I had not seen for a while, because he had not contacted me for an appointment, actually criticized me for not contacting him, explaining friendship is a two way street. Sorry, Charlie, I chose my friends!

 

If two people are sensitive and interested in being friends, I still think its relatively easy to figure out how to do that and still maintain an "escort/client" relationship.

 

Steven

pacnwescort@aol.com

[ad rian]

>I guess the other unstated component of navigating clients

>as friends, which is implicit in your comment, is that both

>parties have reasonably good bullshit detectors. If you get

>the feeling that an escort is pretending to be your friend

>to get you to hire him more often, or for longer periods of

>time, I can see why you would be put off.

 

Thanks, that's helpful. I guess I am not sure he is "pretending". I think he genuinely likes being with me, but he just wants to get paid for all the time we are together, whether in cash or clothes, shows and/or dinners and/or purchases of his art. The problem is that I pay for sex not companionship so after 1 hour I am satisfied evenm though I do like his company, at this stage I don't need to and won't pay for companionship. At any rate, in his absence this week, I have discovered a new "commercial" partner who has reminded me of what I like about pure sexual escort/client relations. So when he returns next week, I think I will bring it to an end by telling him either we keep the sex on the clock, and the non-sex time off the clock, or become friends who fuck or we go our separate ways!

[Guest jon guy]

>or used.

>

>Also, in at least a few instances, the feelings of concern I

>associate with "being friends" led me to encourage the end

>of an escort/client relationship. One of them is happening

>right now. ....... In this case, being the

>guy's friend means diligently and methodically and gradually

>putting myself out of business, at least with him. Believe

>me, taking the money would be easier, if not ethical.

 

Wow, at the end of a mind boggling discussion, this seems to me to be friendship - and it is something - a degree of genuine care for someone, that surely makes the issue of whether money changes hands pretty redundant in the end.

 

Sex is only sex, and cash is only cash - but **** aren't both important! it does take courage to sacrifice the certainties of these tangibles for something as illusive as friendship but i really applaud you for having done so - and to your own detriment. Social worker of the year award, here we come!

:'(