SHOULD we out them?

[Guest ReturnOfS]

I know that I'm going to sound naive, but I had not realized that there really was such a significant number of homophobic hate mongers who hired escorts. If nothing else, your post has enlightened me to that. Ultimately the decision is yours, and I wouldn't hold it against you what you decide to do, believe it or not. Personally I believe that every homophobic hate monger should be outed. But I support whatever you decide to do.

 

It is a different animal when it comes to gay escorts. Heterosexual male and female escorts don't have to worry about their clients making it illegal to marry another heterosexual or making heterosexual sex illegal.

 

Lastly, for those who say that ecorts have the option of not taking a client, I say that homophobic hate mongers have the option of not hiring a gay escort. They also have the option of not being homophobic hate mongers to begin with.

[Luv2play]

please, the word is "discreet" NOT "discrete". x(

I can't stand lousy English!

[Luv2play]

LOL!

[LeeOz]

I agree that 99.9% of the time, the escort should be discreet. All of us have skeletons in our closets, and no one has a right to reveal this except the person concerned.

 

On the 0.01%, there are the exceptions. The question is who judges whether the situation is worth an exception. Ultimately, it will be up to the escort's own conscience and ethics. He can justify it by saying that it is for the "better good", because "the people have a right to know". But that is why tabloids are in business. We live in an age where nothing is private anymore. The media feeds on us washing our dirty laundries in public. Is this any different?

 

In your scenarios, the escort will play judge on whether to destroy this person or not. But he himself must be ready to be judged afterwards. Others will think him honorable, while others will think he is just some cheap #### out to revel from the notoriety.

[+ deej]

Extremely well-said, Carter. My only quibble is with this:

 

>you shouldn't accept appointments from people in power who can

>affect the lives of the gay community

 

and this applies to everyone else who made this argument elsewhere in the thread. A good number of clients use assumed names when hiring escorts. The current case in the news makes it clear that the client was using an alias. Somehow, I don't see a call coming in like "Hello, this is Pat Robertson and I want to suck your dick".

 

How is an escort to "just say no" on principle to a client who is making anonymous contact using an alias? And they're not all recognizable even on meeting. I had no idea who Haggard was even after seeing his pictures! And that leads to...

 

If an escort sees a client for several years before realizing who he really is, is the escort allowed to feel a little betrayed?

 

The "just say no" argument doesn't work when you don't know.

[sexualoutlaw]

I agree, ReturnOfS. People on the down low who hold publicly elected positions that they use to denounce others for doing exactly what they are doing deserve to be outed.

[Guest jeffOH]

Well Tom, I've said it before, but I'll say it again. I'd draw the line at "outing" clients to those who are gay, anti-gay bigots such as Haggard, Foley, Dreier, Craig, Mehlman- who are in positions of political or religious power and are out there ACTIVELY campaigning against gay rights and either making or influencing public policy on such issues. Recently, I told one benign Republican client that we'll NEVER agree on certain issues and that it's best that we don't discuss them (even though I probably pound his ass a bit harder after a particularly heated discussion...lol). I respect Epigonos' right to his opinion, but I TOTALLY disagree with it on principal. I don't know whether he's in the closet himself or not, but to me I don't understand how an Out-and-Proud gay man in 2006 could ever cling to such beliefs. I came out at a time 25 years in era/time and in smalltown NE Kentucky/Southern Ohio in which I suffered the slings and arrows of overt hatred and discrimination. It's people like Falwell, Robertson, Haggard who GREATLY contribute to the gay bigotry in this country supposedly in the name of religion. Honestly, I LOL when I saw the first reports about Haggard. I thought, Boo-fuckin'-who-Tough shit-motherfucker, Karma's a bitch, isn't it? LOL!

 

Having lived here in the Ohio state capital Columbus for 20 years now, I've seen my share of movers/shakers and political animals. For 13 of my 15 years escorting, I've lived 4 blocks from the the State Capitol, 3 blocks from the Ohio GOP headquarters and 2 blocks from the Ohio Democratic headquarters and 2 miles from OSU. It's hard to escape politics and OSU football here.

 

I appreciate your question Tom, but having read your posts on this site, I think you're a good man (and fuckin' sexy as hell) and I believe that you instinctually know the answer to your question. ;-)

[Guest zipperzone]

>Honestly, I LOL when I saw the first reports about

>Haggard. I thought, Boo-fuckin'-who-Tough shit-motherfucker,

>Karma's a bitch, isn't it? LOL!

 

I TOTALLY agree with jeffOH.

 

These bigots are out to destroy our lives, all the while sucking on our dicks.

 

What they are attempting to do is the equivilent of war as far as I'm concerned. And when you're at war, you shoot the fucking enemy in the head, before his actions from the pulpit or the political arena before they destroy your rights and freedom.

 

There ARE times when it is not required that one be a gentleman.

[jawjateck]

Whew!!! Been away for awhile, and what a firestorm upon which to re-enter. I'm not into "outing" because I'm not "out", and no, I'm not married, or a corporate, community, political, or religious leader, just my preference. It ain't nobody else's business, but mine. I am in most respects "conservative", although I'm not anti-gay in my public life. But for all the talk about acceptance, blah, blah, blah, I sadly have found that I am least welcome in gay circles. Diversity is not appreciated in this world.

 

All of this just confirms my long standing belief not to hire anyone that openly spouts contempt at those of opposing views. Just never know when the guy may try to nail me, and not in the good way.

 

P.S. Epigonos.....I have read your posts, and I hear ya man. :-)

[Guest ReturnOfS]

I wish that it wasn't too late for me to go back and fix my spelling and grammatical errors in the above post. Thats what happens when you post tired.

[RockHard]

Wouldn't it be fun to out Tom Isern? I'm sure there are at least a few people who would benefit from discovering his "legal name" (even if it's just to pursue a simple little audit).

 

It isn't so difficult to imagine an in-call customer posting Tom's NYC address, his apartment number, the name that appears on his building's intercom, or worse, contacting the owner of his building. I'm sure a chat with the local postman could reveal a few surprises. I sure hope Tom hides all his mail before his customers are sent off to the toilet to clean up or prepare for one of those piss sessions.

 

Should we find it interesting (or humorous) when a male escort, who foams at his rabid mouth when anyone else mentions ethics, morals, and a belief in God, ponders the ethical issue of outing another gay man? I guess everyone wants the pleasure of playing God at some point. Playing the devil's advocate can be fun, too.

[danknight2005]

Dan Knight 2005

Just read a few of Tom Isern's posts on this site. He is so full of hate for anyone who disagrees with his views on any subject- religion, politics, social issues etc.

Let him sink in his misery and hate. He will never learn the simple truth that and tained therapist or the AA programs teach - The One

Holding And Expressing The Hate Suffers Much More Than The Person

Who Is Bein Hated.

[+ Tom Isern]

Hahaha. Boy is this ironic. RockHead accuses me of foaming at a rabid mouth (read his hate-filled, ignorant, and bloated posts some day, danknight!) and danknight says I’m full of hate and misery and suffering and people who toss that around are the ones who suffer. Perhaps you should take your own lesson, “dan.” What a hypocrite you are!

 

All I’ve done in this thread is ask a question and challenged the widespread assumption that there is one answer which is universally applicable to every situation. Anyone who’s passed Psch 101 or basic logic or any beginning ethics course would recognize this. And there have been some very interesting and thoughtful responses—just not either of yours.

[Guest Merlin]

RE: Fallacy

 

Think about it, if a man can marry a woman or another man, and woman can marry another woman or a man, then anyone can marry anyone else. Right? And most states already have divorce at will or at least no fault. So what purpose will it serve. Shouldn't the state simply throw up its hands and get out of the marriage buisness altogether?

This is relevant to this thread which started out asking if escorts should out clients who do not agree with the gay agenda and who therefore, "hate" gays. My point is that it is not valid to suppose that everyone who wants to preserve traditional marriage, therefore, "hates" gays.

[+ Tom Isern]

Hey jeffOH,

Thanks for the sweet words! I do have a pretty strong sense about how I would answer this question. This country’s laws, institutions, and culture discriminate against queer people in uncounted ways—not just by denying marriage. Those who publicly promote that discrimination and hatred, all the while pretending to be “straight,” but are secretly queer themselves, or who are sleeping with them—Roy Cohn types—these are the kinds of people that I confess I do think deserve to be outed. I think, for instance, that this leader of 30 MILLION Evangelicals who is secretly gay and sleeping around and publicly working to promote hate—he deserved what he got. (Did his family, though?) The unintended consequences...I would probably never be the one to out him. It is that ambivalence which prompted my initial post here. Thanks again for your kind words!

 

P.S. I’m going to be in your state over Thanksgiving weekend…

[+ Lucky]

RE: It's Getting Dark, Dan

 

Dan Knight of last year, your remarks are ludicrous. One doesn't have to agree with Tom Isern on everything to appreciate the fact that he is committed to his causes and anything but "hate-filled." Your remarks are more hateful than anything he has posted. Are you sure you are not Rock Hard's twin?

[Louis]

While its true his family didn't deserve it, one can't be a two faced as he is and expect to get away with it. So in many ways my opinion could be changing a bit on this issue. If a person is in a position of trust... ie. a politican, religous leader etc., then maybe they should be held to the highest standards. Its really pathetic when a person says one thing, and does the opposite themselves. So if we live in countries that go around telling the rest of the world how to live and act etc. then maybe people in power have to be made accountable for their actions or our countries lose their credibilty.....

Louis

[Bilbo]

RE: Old Testament Story

 

OK, this is a very good, very interesting discussion of morals and ethics. I hope that no one minds if I become the first one here to cite a religious text?

And you know how I am with names, so please forgive me if I get one or two wrong. Or avoid mentioning them.

There was once a King, the leader, not one of the lesser minions, the leader, of a group of people who were opressing another group of people on both civil and religious grounds. They were foreigners and they were Jewish. This King saw a Jewish woman. Now, she might not have appealed to any of us here who are bisexual, I don't know, but she did appeal to this King. I think his name was Holofernes or Hamurabi but you know me ... He had her come to the palace and had sex with her. She took the opportunity to chop his head off. And became a hero to her people for doing so.

[RockHard]

RE: SHOULD we out Tom Isern?

 

"RockHead accuses me of foaming at a rabid mouth"

 

Sweetheart, I didn't accuse, I stated an obvious fact even a blind man could see. Here's a napkin for that foam, dear.

 

If I had a dollar for every time Tom Isern called a member here ignorant, I could take Benjamin Nicholas and Scott Adler to Sardinia for a month next summer and not use any cash of my own.

 

"read his hate-filled posts some day, danknight!"

 

I'm sure everyone has much better things to do with their time, Tom, but considering you are an utter failure at business (and probably elsewhere), feel free to research those hate-filled posts of mine and cut-n-paste for a new thread. Since I "hate" no one, not even you, and I rarely use the word in my writing (feel free to provide a usage percentage ratio), and I haven't a hateful bone in my aging body, I'm confident you will fail (how typical) at sticking the "hate" pin on me. That's your crown of thorns, queen, and I'm sure you'll continue to wear it like some badge of honor, the silly, arrogant fool that you are.

[Louis]

If I was an escort who had a regular client or even a one timer, and that person ended up being in some religious organization or was part of the moral campaign, I would definately feel betrayed.

Louis

[Lookin]

Tom, you’ve raised some important issues in this thread, and you raised some more with your two specific examples. In the hypothetical case of your brother-in-law, my first thought would be to tell him what I know, and ask him what his plans are for telling my sister; if he didn’t, I would. In the case of the judge, I’d ask him how his actions fit in with his upcoming vote; and let him know that, while I still had my citizenship, I was planning to provide the full story to my fellow citizens through the media. So, yes, I would out these guys in both cases, if they refused to out themselves. But they seem like more extreme cases to me.

 

The situation with Haggard also seems to be a pretty extreme one, but it definitely has happened. Here, too, I’d be inclined to let him know directly what I thought about his hypocrisy, and ask him what he planned to do about it. I’m not sure what I’d do if he said he wasn’t willing to change anything he was doing.

 

For me, a big issue in all of this is how some people set themselves up to judge others. When I was going to Sunday School, I learned that we humans should let God do all of the judging. As a young adult, I found myself judging others sometimes, and later learned that many of my judgments were wrong. I also learned that I had a lot of faults of my own. So I retired from the judgment business, and started focusing on what I could do to bring my own actions to a higher level. Since that time, I’ve had a real aversion to people who judge others. It’s not unusual to see a really dysfunctional person be the first one to criticize others; it seems to make him feel better about himself in some way.

 

Haggard is a prime example of this. He’s got himself in a position where he thinks his views are the only correct ones, and that everyone should follow his teachings. But then it turns out that even he doesn’t follow his own teachings; he’s a hypocrite. Unfortunately, I think that most people are hypocritical sometimes, and that many people are hypocritical a lot of the time. It’s a pretty universal human failing. What amazes me is that most folks seem to overlook this, in themselves and in others. They start to believe that guys like Haggard have some special moral authority; or they feel that they themselves have some special moral authority. That’s one of the things I really dislike about the fundamentalists: they seem to always be judging others, and assuming their own actions and beliefs are near perfect.

 

Discrimination against gays, the “gay lifestyle”, gay marriage, and gay adoption are all just forms of some people judging other people. Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s fine to judge someone whose actions are harmful to someone else, whether they’re gay or straight. But to judge someone for having consensual gay sex just doesn’t make sense to me. I really hate it when that weapon is used against me, and I’d be very reluctant to use it against someone else. Rather than a big circle of gay people outing one another, I’d rather see the effort going into challenging those who judge us, and being a little less judgmental ourselves.

 

Finally, Tom, I admire your passion for your causes, and am glad to hear your strong voice. I do get conflicted when you direct your passion against individuals as well as their actions. I think it’s very likely that most people do some good stuff, as well as some bad stuff. If you throw out the whole person, you lose their good parts as well as their bad parts. With a very few exceptions, I think making someone the devil incarnate is an oversimplification.

 

That’s my two cents worth. Thanks for getting this discussion going!

[Guest ReturnOfS]

RE: Old Testament Story

 

This reminds me of the story of Esther. I don't think that Esther chopped her husband's head off though, LOL. She basically ended up changing the King's heart.

[Guest msclonly]

Just stop accepting the dirty money in the questionable business your are in.

 

As for spewing HATE, this board is a a good example of people, who are Masters at it besides being two faced!

 

 

Help those below you!

Respect those above you!

[Bilbo]

RE: Old Testament Story

 

The Old Testament is large and contains many stories. I think that we are both right RofS in that we are thinking of different stories. Was there a heroine named Judith, perhaps? I may have some time late this evening to try to find the story I'm thinking of.

[DaninWA]

If an escort doesn't know, then your argument that an escort can't "just say no" holds water. Tom does know and seems to have known for some time. I am not judging him or telling him to out or not out anyone. I am suggesting that Tom consider his actions and whether he wants to continue to see this type of client.