Massageislife

"When I quote you, I'm not responding to you." "Words mean nothing." You're a piece of work, dude!

Roger, you're obviously addressing me directly, when you preface your remarks with quotes from things I've written. Nobody else is weighing in here (and I don't blame them!). If you think the words, "sensual" and "erotic," mean nothing in the context not just of Rentmasseur but on this forum, where they are frequently and commonly used, then there isn't much more to say here. Be well

Well, I appreciate your taking the time to write, but it feels like we're talking past each other. Words like "sensual" and "erotic" mean something generally (otherwise language wouldn't function at all), and posters on this site have helped me get clearer sense of what people on both sides of the transaction mean when they use them. I'm not asking for advice on how to talk to masseurs, especially once we've had our initial meeting. I'm also not asking how to get my "fantasy massage." I'm not asking for something rigid, like a "ruIe book" or a "guarantee." And, finally, I know there are no universal experiences of anything in life, especially something complicated like massage. Maybe your phrase, "guide book," is a better way to put it. Before I found this site, my experience was much more mixed. Having a community to discuss (in both public and private messages) their experiences with specific masseurs and the m4m massage experience in general hasn't turned getting an erotic massage into utopia, but the collective guidance here has been really helpful. I wish you the best

Roger, I can only describe the sense I get from the discussions on this forum. I've never seen a poster express outrage or even surprise (maybe disappointment, which is something different) that their sensual or erotic massage didn't include oral sex. They only report happy surprise when it does happen. I've seen lots of advice, on the other hand, that if oral sex, for example, is actually what one is looking for, one should be hiring an escort, at the requisite rate. I haven't seen many (any) complaints when a masseur offered extras, depending on their personal policies or mood and the chemistry with an individual client. That's different than expecting free extras, however, and, for what it's worth, I hope that people tip in proportion to the amount of "extras" they get. That's what I would feel I deserved, if I were a masseur. Likewise, I gather from my reading of postings on this site that there are indeed commonsensical, general (not universal) things members of this community understand that differentiate m4m massage from "legit" therapeutic massage. Those things are the reason that we pay so much more for this type of massage; if we opt for sensual or erotic massage, we are contracting for something more than "some form of massage." Again, I fear that you and I are missing each other in this conversation. I don't believe that you are saying that we can't expect anything more than a massage when we hire a private sensual or erotic masseur; nor are you saying, I'm sure, that kissing, rimming, sucking, and/or fucking are reasonable expectations to place on someone advertising erotic massage for, say, $150/hr. I'm not sure what your disagreement with me is. What do you are think the minimal elements of a massage advertised on an m4m site as "sensual," without which a client has a right to be disappointed and complain, for example, on a forum like this? (I only get erotic or therapeutic massage, since the middle ground of "sensual" is murky to me.) I'm counting on my brothers here to tell me, among other things, when a masseur advertising and charging for a sensual or erotic massage does nothing more than I would have gotten from a much cheaper legit massage. I like discussions on this forum about what we think words like "sensual" or "erotic" in a masseur's advertisement mean. I started a thread recently about "erotic massage" in particular. It seemed from the many posts that there was general agreement that nudity, some degree of mutual touch, and non-avoidance of the ass and penis were reasonable things to expect--without upcharge--when one paid for an erotic massage. (Some people seemed to think HE was also a component of an erotic massage.) Everyone also seemed to agree that anything sexual beyond that was delightful but not part of the initial deal. Every sexual thing possible can happen in an m4m massage context (most of them have happened to me), and undoutedly that's where "looks and chemistry" play a role. I just hope we'll alert each other to masseurs who don't follow through on the basic sensual or erotic elements of massage as advertised just because they're having an off day or the client isn't good-looking/provides the requisite chemistry with them. Genuine professionals--in any profession--don't fail to discharge their basic functions, just because they're not feeling chemistry with a client.

Just saw Lennie and everything on this thread is spot-on. I'm definitely going to be a return customer. Cute just like his pictures. Strictly therapeutic (though shirtless ?), but he's gay and clearly comfortable with the natural sensuality of male/male massage. I didn't see any signs that he is as open to more. He was very elbowy, as some wrote, but I liked it, and he he was very communicative about if I thought the pressure was right, so I'm sure he'll modify that for those who like something different.

Roger, although I am definitely a little bit sentimental about something I love as much as m4m massage and protective of the fragility of its intimacy (and as long as it's illegal, its risk), I don't think I'm being unrealistic here. You're no doubt right about the history of m4m massage and how its hustle elements derive from its lying somewhere on a continuum of sex work. Things are changing, though. In New York now, for example, it looks likely that sex work will soon be decriminalized. It will be so good for all of us--masseurs and clients--when it is. Until then, I hope we're all committed to treating masseurs (and escorts, if you're on that page of the site) with professionalism. Likewise, I also want the participants on this site to alert us to all the hustlers out there. You're right: some of us are going to go for a hustler anyway, but we can help each other be more open-eyed about what we might be getting. That's the problem with your moving to the example of being willing to pay extra for a blowjob. It distracts, I think, from what this discussion is about. Anyone who expects a blowjob (or kissing or rimming or fucking) to be included in the price of a sensual or erotic massage is way out of line, and we should tell them so. My point is not about "extras" that go beyond what I sense is the general, almost universal understanding of the members of this community about what should be expected in a sensual or erotic massage. I don't mind hearing that such extras are available for a price, but what I really want, along with accounts of positive experiences with specific masseurs, is a heads-up for what you call "hustles." That includes, on the most serious end, of things like physically dangerous situations or outright financial scams, to other, lesser forms of misrepresentation, from catfishing to dated pictures and surprise upcharges for generally agreed-upon sensual and erotic basics. If, for example, a masseur advertising erotic massage, posting a rate of, say, $160/hr., and including shirtless or nude photos tells us when we arrive that it will be extra to perform shirtless or nude, to touch them in any way, of not to not avoid our dick or ass, my wish is that will be part of what we write on this site, if we decide to post about them.

I'm glad you shared this. I enjoyed my experience with Omar, but that's unacceptable. He lists both sensual and erotic massage as possibilities, with a price ($160/hr.) that is typical for erotic massage (not to mention pictures that indicate he will be nude or nearly so). I want the m4m experience to be as little of an underground one as possible. I treat masseurs extremely professionally, which they deserve. It's highly unprofessional, however, to advertise sensual/erotic massage at a certain rate but then expect customers to ask if that's really the rate they will pay. (I'm not talking about "extras" that move into the area of escorting.)

No, I'm not saying that. In a sexist culture--which all cultures are to varying degrees, unfortunately-- men and women are kept in their place (which is with men in a generally dominant position) by rigidly defining what men and women can be. Sexual interest in men has always been defined as a feminine thing, which is a way of stigmatizing women who desire other women and of stigmatizing men who desire men. We've all got age, race, size, and gender performance preferences when it comes to sexual attraction, but it's painful to see the most damaging ones ("no fats, no femmes," "I'm not into [name the race] guys") show up on a site like this, which, at it's best, can be a place of real pleasure, humor, and support for each other.

He lists $160/hr., which is what I paid last year ($240 for 90 min). Are you saying he upchatged for basic sensual elements?

I saw Miguel again at his place in Union City. I was clear that I was interested in more erotic elements, and he included them.

So sexy, but WAY TOO MUCH DICK!!

to me the YMMV can be helpful but only as to indicate that a profile that i may have assumed was strictly massage (based on its presentation), that it may be ok under the appropriate circumstances to inquire with that masseur about extra services not mentioned but i don't assume or expect to necessarily get the same results. GTMike, thank you for posting on this thread. You bring back happy and embarrassing memories from when I started my own m4m massage journey 4 or 5 years ago. As for what you write about YMMV, that is also the only way I would use that acronym (which I don't), but what you explain about your usage is so much clearer than the acronym itself, the YMMV seems superflous, if not confusing

Lots of realities are pretty mean. ?

Yeah, I've always disliked the anti-short guy bias. I've been amazed by the number of heterosexual women who talk about a guy being shorter than them as a deal-breaker! Gay men have to do better than that!

Smurof, thank you for posting on this thread! You don't really address the issue of the use of the term YMMV, but I hope we don't use it to signal to others "I take care of myself and look great, so you might not get the extras I do." That would be cruel. Your comments about the client's attractiveness do interest me. I think I'll start a new thread!

Mikebidude, thank you for posting in this thread! I agree with your remarks, but, honestly, I don't see how adding YMMV helps. We should all know--and I think we do--that our experiences, even with same masseur, will vary. And when YMMV isn't merely being redundant in this way, it can have a meangirls-ish vibe to it ("I got more but you might not") or seem to apologize for masseurs who don't follow through on what they advertise. YMMV may be easy to type, but it doesn't really give the information we need and can make this amazing site a little more brutal than it has to be.

Mplsgymguy, thank you for posting in this thread. The line you quote of mine is different Mplsgymguy, thanks for posting on this thread. I'm not sure why you quoted the specific line from my post that you do. One of the main things I look for on this site is reliable information on who provides the basics (not "extras" like kissing, sex, etc.) of erotic massage that I list. (On another thread, I have asked what people think "erotic massage" generally entails.) What I always appreciate in this regard is information about masseurs who advertise and charge for erotic but don't follow through. "YMMV" isn't helpful in this regard. If masseur is engaging in false advertising, I hope we'll all name it as such. You seem to be talking about the opposite thing: masseurs who offer more than they advertise. To reply "not in my experience" to someone who has indicated that their experience was only therapeutic gives a bit more information than "YMMV," I guess. (I mean, everything is more information than that phrase, in the way that many on this site use it, which is just to acknowledge the obvious truth that masseurs and clients are individuals and their interactions are always going to differ.) What would be more useful, in a case like this, I think, would be for you to share that your experience suggests that the masseur may be open to more and if an upcharge is involved. I hope the forum member in your final example did that for you, but anything beyond what a masseur advertises is never something we can--or have the right to--count on.

Hornytwells, comments that appear to be baseless attacks on masseurs should be condemned, but I don't think you are saying that any of the negative comments about Ryan are baseless. What I am suggesting is that there is a difference between posting positive experiences about masseurs and "defending" them. What suggests an "agenda," to use your word, is going beyond adding one's positive experience to the discussion by moving onto language which seems to challenge or excuse other, less positive experiences. It is enough, for example, for you to say that he has usually been reliable in his appointments with you. You go beyond that, however, when you write that you "never...heard of him doing such a thing" as being unreliable. You, in fact, heard it from this very thread! Likewise, posting your own attitude towards Ryan's level of talkitiveness is appropriate, but it's bewildering to me why you would feel the need to tell us that "many people I know like to relax in a massage and not converse." We can speak for ourselves, and the posters in this thread have. The same goes for this comment of yours: "I have read several posts from people on here who hate chatty masseurs and complain that they talk too much." Again, we don't need you to tell us what others think. We can read. Your engaging in this kind of rhetoric is what makes your post seem like advocacy. I'm glad you have had good experiences with Ryan, but good masseurs don't need defenders. Their work and positive comments posted about them on this site are sufficient.

Yes, apparently he was a professional, acrobatic dancer. Per Harryinny's recommendation, however, "Max" is my"go-from" masseur

Please, someone try him out. So cute!

Ah, Gustavo ?

Hornytwells, by "both ways" do you mean that we should avoid writing malicious responses whose purpose is just to harm a masseur's reputation? I think we all agree that's also not the purpose of this site. The negative experiences with Ryan described above, however, don't have that character. I want to know if a masseur has smelled bad, shorted a client on time, cancelled at the last minute, or was chatty. You don't appear to be suggesting that these weren't the experiences of others. There is no need to try to "balance out" experiences that are different than your own. It's enough to add them to the mix.

I think the point here is to consider our roles on this site. I certainly want to hear about masseurs with whom our comrades have had good (as well as bad) experiences; that's the main reason why we come here. It's when praise seems to grade into advocacy for a masseur, sometimes in the form of seeming to challenge negative experiences of others, that positive comments lose their value or even become suspect.

I mostly agree except for that last, parenthetical remark. My hope is that we can agree on basics, like a massage advertised as erotic and costing $150-60/hr. has some basic, agreed upon parameters

Yeah, sometimes guys have come right out and said that! Not helpful.