Do M4M providers have a "bad date" list?

[Pulgasari1991]

Last month, the bad check client hired an escort that realized who he was before the end of the session.

How he realized?

[+ freecahill1965]

There is a guy in SF that gives people bad checks after a session--after saying he'll use cash or card. He often involves security and sometimes calls the police. He has done this to dozens of people and many people I know. He uses burner phones, alternate yet accurate stats, and has several locations (he claims are airBnB) to host. Most of these details have been posted on Twitter. I make a lot of notes and save this sort of information. I've several numbers, descriptions, addresses, and names for him. I have a copy of a bad check and a video of him screaming "security". He's tried to hire me several times. I've politely declined.

 

I'm NOT condoning every instance where Mocha has posted people's info. But when a client flakes on a scheduled session with a no call/no show or writes a bad check, I assume he does it to others and will do it again. To me this is no different than stealing. In my opinion, these clients forfeit there right to discretion and their "personal" info should be shared.

 

Last month, the bad check client hired an escort that realized who he was before the end of the session. The escort flipped out and beat his ass bad. Broke several teeth on his fist/against a wall...

 

The escort had only heard about the bad check guy. He hadn't seen his varying info sporadically posted online. He didn't know what I knew. Had there been a more efficient website or service dedicated to posting this guy's "personal" info, many escorts wouldn't have been ripped off and the client could have saved himself a trip to the hospital.

Wow! It is so sad that a client would treat an escort so poorly. I treat all my guys like gold and the best ones like platinum. I can't imagine what kind of scum would do such a thing to a provider.

[JTtorretto]

Currently I’m in San Francisco and my profile is posted online. I’m AMAZED with the amount of texts I’ve been receiving from “prospective clients” who are attempting to get additional photos, information etc but who are using “VOIP’s” /fake Internet based phone numbers.

 

Based on my experience, it’s not safe or wise to invite a total stranger into your hotel room or home, whos unable to provide their actual cell phone number. When contacted by someone using one of these phony numbers, I request they contact me directly using their actual cell number.

 

Since I’m using my actual cell number, it’s only fair.

 

[notable exception is someone who’s a celebrity/high profile. I make the exception there, because then they are NOT an “anonymous” stranger].

 

This is for common sense safety.

[snogaholic]

>>The escort flipped out and beat his ass bad. Broke several teeth on his fist/against a wall...

 

Not sure that is the smartest response. Were the police called? A bad check is one thing, assault is another.

[JTtorretto]

Shady clients who get away with actually meeting up with working guys (via a fake number) have tipped the scales of leverage in the equation to their side and benefit. Then, as mentioned above, the shady bastard has more likelihood of getting away with some sleazy scheme to screw the escort out of payment.

 

Google Voice, Voips, Bandwith #’s are not a friend to escorts. They are a nuisance.

[MisterMike]

Last month, the bad check client hired an escort that realized who he was before the end of the session. The escort flipped out and beat his ass bad. Broke several teeth on his fist/against a wall...

 

The escort had only heard about the bad check guy. He hadn't seen his varying info sporadically posted online. He didn't know what I knew. Had there been a more efficient website or service dedicated to posting this guy's "personal" info, many escorts wouldn't have been ripped off and the client could have saved himself a trip to the hospital.

 

Either something is missing from your story, or that escort assaulted someone on a whim which puts him into a category of providers to avoid.

[GTMike]

Either something is missing from your story, or that escort assaulted someone on a whim which puts him into a category of providers to avoid.

I am not condoning that the escort who is being referenced should have resorted to violence, nor am i condoning the behavior of this alleged habitual scammer client, but i took, IronMaus' comment more to mean that the Escort was aware of the existence of "a particluar habitual bad check guy", and to be on alert, but did not know the extent of how much he frequently changed and tried to disguise his past identities and therefore inferred that if there was a more robust system in place for escorts to "compare notes" as an example the whole unfortunate episode could've been potentially avoided.

 

Again I'm not condoning the violence and maybe perhaps this provider should absolutely be avoided due to anger management issues and impulsive violent streaks, but it might be unfair to suggest that he "assaulted someone on a whim" in your response when you leave out the fuller context and the beginning of the comment which started as... "There is a guy in SF that gives people bad checks after a session--after saying he'll use cash or card. He often involves security and sometimes calls the police. He has done this to dozens of people and many people I know. He uses burner phones, alternate yet accurate stats, and has several locations (he claims are airBnB) to host. Most of these details have been posted on Twitter. I make a lot of notes and save this sort of information. I've several numbers, descriptions, addresses, and names for him. I have a copy of a bad check and a video of him screaming "security". He's tried to hire me several times. I've politely declined."

Who knows maybe the missing piece of info was sometime during the session the client commented that he would write him a check when they were finished despite telling him beforehand he'd pay in cash as was prefaced as the guy's scam and it dawned on the provider mid way, that "oh shit", maybe this is the notorious "bad check guy" and he confronted him? Total speculation on my part which i admit, but play the rest out logically. If it is indeed the scammer he prolly doesn't have any cash and says to provider something to the effect of, what are you gonna do? Sue me? Call the cops?

 

But you're correct if there are providers who are beating up clients whimsically we OBVIOUSLY should be all aware of who they are just as providers should know of clients who go to elaborate and great lengths to constantly scam them and then play the victim and uses security and police to further the scam knowing the provider is more vulnerable and not likely to assert their rights.

[AJ Doyle]

Either something is missing from your story, or that escort assaulted someone on a whim which puts him into a category of providers to avoid.

Whaaat!!!? Did the client in question keep saying "I love you baby" to the escort!? Cause that's what mine kept saying all night...before he wrote me the bad check. I don't think it's cool though to beat up someone for not paying you or writing a bad check. However when this client did this to me I was kinda thinking...Dude ...he is gonna do that to the WRONG escort some day!!!? I hope it wasn't my guy that that happened to... It was a shitty thing to do (writing a bad check), but I would hate to see anyone get beat up like that! :-(

[AJ Doyle]

I am not condoning that the escort who is being referenced should have resorted to violence, nor am i condoning the behavior of this alleged habitual scammer client, but i took, IronMaus' comment more to mean that the Escort was aware of the existence of "a particluar habitual bad check guy", and to be on alert, but did not know the extent of how much he frequently changed and tried to disguise his past identities and therefore inferred that if there was a more robust system in place for escorts to "compare notes" as an example the whole unfortunate episode could've been potentially avoided.

 

Again I'm not condoning the violence and maybe perhaps this provider should absolutely be avoided due to anger management issues and impulsive violent streaks, but it might be unfair to suggest that he "assaulted someone on a whim" in your response when you leave out the fuller context and the beginning of the comment which started as... "There is a guy in SF that gives people bad checks after a session--after saying he'll use cash or card. He often involves security and sometimes calls the police. He has done this to dozens of people and many people I know. He uses burner phones, alternate yet accurate stats, and has several locations (he claims are airBnB) to host. Most of these details have been posted on Twitter. I make a lot of notes and save this sort of information. I've several numbers, descriptions, addresses, and names for him. I have a copy of a bad check and a video of him screaming "security". He's tried to hire me several times. I've politely declined."

Who knows maybe the missing piece of info was sometime during the session the client commented that he would write him a check when they were finished despite telling him beforehand he'd pay in cash as was prefaced as the guy's scam and it dawned on the provider mid way, that "oh shit", maybe this is the notorious "bad check guy" and he confronted him? Total speculation on my part which i admit, but play the rest out logically. If it is indeed the scammer he prolly doesn't have any cash and says to provider something to the effect of, what are you gonna do? Sue me? Call the cops?

 

But you're correct if there are providers who are beating up clients whimsically we OBVIOUSLY should be all aware of who they are just as providers should know of clients who go to elaborate and great lengths to constantly scam them and then play the victim and uses security and police to further the scam knowing the provider is more vulnerable and not likely to assert their rights.

OMFG!!! The client that did the same thing to me was visiting Los Angeles from San Francisco!!!!! Holy Batman!! He wrote the check from some brokerage acct that had been closed. And I think he was using a burner phone. It started out as a 2 hour session and half way he asked for an overnight. I told him my fee and he agreed to it. Then next day wrote me a check. I should have just told him to keep it and asked for him to just pay my damn parking and gas!! I wonder if the guy that did this to me is the same guy though? He claimed he was checking out apartments in LA cause he had some bad things happen to him in San Francisco.... He was annoying as Hell which made the bad check even worse. Kept telling me he "loved me!" Because of him though I always add "Paypal or cash only" whenever I send potential clients my rates. For me it didnt escalate. I was pretty sure the check was going to bounce, but I just wanted to get away from him and go home. The phone he was using btw was an Iphone SE...the cheapest Iphone you can get!!

[AJ Doyle]

Agreed. I feel like @KCRob's statement could/should be a whole thread of its own to call this behavior out.

 

I'm the OP of this thread, and I agree with providers having a list that they can put clients on but publicly sharing someone's phone number because they didn't set an appointment or keep an appointment is a real piece of shit move. If the person stole from you, was violent towards you, or threatened you in some way- I get it. Green light. Destroy them. But just because they are rude, or flaky, or disorganized, or their life suddenly changed is really unconscionable and is likely to land Mocha aka Jarrod Brandon aka Joey Bryant in some trouble of some kind somewhere along the way.

could not have said it better myself! Agree!

[AJ Doyle]

There is a guy in SF that gives people bad checks after a session--after saying he'll use cash or card. He often involves security and sometimes calls the police. He has done this to dozens of people and many people I know. He uses burner phones, alternate yet accurate stats, and has several locations (he claims are airBnB) to host. Most of these details have been posted on Twitter. I make a lot of notes and save this sort of information. I've several numbers, descriptions, addresses, and names for him. I have a copy of a bad check and a video of him screaming "security". He's tried to hire me several times. I've politely declined.

 

I'm NOT condoning every instance where Mocha has posted people's info. But when a client flakes on a scheduled session with a no call/no show or writes a bad check, I assume he does it to others and will do it again. To me this is no different than stealing. In my opinion, these clients forfeit there right to discretion and their "personal" info should be shared.

 

Last month, the bad check client hired an escort that realized who he was before the end of the session. The escort flipped out and beat his ass bad. Broke several teeth on his fist/against a wall...

 

The escort had only heard about the bad check guy. He hadn't seen his varying info sporadically posted online. He didn't know what I knew. Had there been a more efficient website or service dedicated to posting this guy's "personal" info, many escorts wouldn't have been ripped off and the client could have saved himself a trip to the hospital.

I think I had this guy back in January in Los Angeles!! He kept saying "he loved me" an showed his love the next day with a bad check for $1k I remember texting him after it bounced and telling him he was gonna do that to the wrong person someday. Sounds like I was right. Even though the guy is a prick it's still sad to hear about him getting beat up like that. Violence is not cool. Even for pricks. I think a better option when the escort realized who he was...would have been to tie the guy to the bed...and offer to untie him only when he produced his payment. Or maybe just make him apologize. Violence is not cool. But embarrassing a prick would be a good alternative. I don't know if I'd have the balls to even do that though....

[+ Tarte Gogo]

So it sound like this guy is real. I put him in the category of criminals, for sure, stealing services and not paying for them is what criminals do, not normal people.

 

It is a guess, but I am pretty sure he can’t afford it at all, but just wants the sex anyway.

If he hadn’t found this method, he might be raping to get the sex he apparently so desperately needs.

 

If an escort attached him to the bed (instead of beating him up) and called the California police, how would they react? No need to mention sex of course, just the agreed hours of companionship and the missing compensation for it.

[MisterMike]

I am not condoning that the escort who is being referenced should have resorted to violence, nor am i condoning the behavior of this alleged habitual scammer client, but i took, IronMaus' comment more to mean that the Escort was aware of the existence of "a particluar habitual bad check guy", and to be on alert, but did not know the extent of how much he frequently changed and tried to disguise his past identities and therefore inferred that if there was a more robust system in place for escorts to "compare notes" as an example the whole unfortunate episode could've been potentially avoided.

 

So to recap... all I said was that something appears to be missing from the story and it seems you agree. IronMaus actually goes on to say "The escort had only heard about the bad check guy. He hadn't seen his varying info sporadically posted online. He didn't know what I knew." which is where it gets a little fuzzy trying to justify the assault. And frankly- there is no justification.

 

If it is indeed the scammer he prolly doesn't have any cash and says to provider something to the effect of, what are you gonna do? Sue me? Call the cops?

End the session. Ask for cash. Offer to escort the client to an ATM in the hotel, or find another method of payment. Insist the client leave their ID behind until the cash is given. Loads of other choices rather than bash somebody's face in. Literally- do not normalize violence based on non-payment or perceived scam.

[Mocha]

Those screenshots contain personal information, thus you are posting personal information.

 

Since you seem to think you’re above the rules, I’ll go ahead and report the account to let Twitter make the judgement call.

 

Well that’s a real bitch ass move to make if you decide to do that. And escort to escort, that makes you look like a hater. Even if I see an escort doing something like advertising as an escort on Grindr or Jack’d (which I have), I wouldn’t go tattle telling on them like a little girl. If anything changes to it, I’ll just go ahead and get my own domain name going...and my RULES will be different.

[+ IronMaus]

>>The escort flipped out and beat his ass bad. Broke several teeth on his fist/against a wall...

 

Not sure that is the smartest response. Were the police called? A bad check is one thing, assault is another.

 

The police were not called. I guess the client had the same the same response all the escorts need ripped off did: will the police be able to help me?

 

I'm not condoning violence and I'm not sharing any info on this escort. And think about it: tying someone to the bed and demanding money doesn't exactly go well in regards to the police or courtroom. It may go better than assault but not a much better option. As for walking the client to an ATM refusing to leave, escorts have tried this. It only results in the client calling the police or security and claiming that this random trick is coming at him for no reason.

 

As for the missing part of my story... The escort had heard about the bad check guy and there was some details and what he heard that tipped him off eventually before the the session was over. I do not know exactly what that is, but since he heard about this client first hand from people the client had ripped off I imagine it was something particular maybe even an ”I love you”.

Edited June 8, 2018 by IronMaus

[Mocha]

You should be doing that to begin with anyways which is what my initial post suggested. Thanks for at least trying to catch up, granted 4 pages later...

 

 

 

I report people all the time on Twitter for using full frontal nude photos as their avatar or their banner image. Rules are in place for a reason. You are not above them. You are not special. Deal with it.

 

#1 I didnt reply for a reason. Like my avatar says, I don’t have time to waste trying to prove anything. I just walked away from the topic. But then I’m seeing all this nonsense...

 

I actually had a client thank me the other day for placing him (and removing him after he realized the mistake) on the list. We’re planning to meet eventually.

 

#2, didnt you just say 4 pages ago that you didn’t work for Twitter? So why are you playing tweet patrol by going around reporting people? I may not be special, but YOU are “special”. Don’t come for me...

[Mocha]

The police were not called. I guess the client had the same the same response all the escorts need ripped off did: will the police be able to help me?

 

I'm not condoning violence and I'm not sharing any info on this escort. And think about it: tying someone to the bed and demanding money doesn't exactly go well in regards to the police or courtroom. It may go better than assault but not a much better option. As for walking the client to an ATM refusing to leave, escorts have tried this. It only results in the client calling the police or security and claiming that this random trick is coming at him for no reason.

 

As for the missing part of my story... The escort had heard about the bad check guy and there was some details and what he heard that tipped him off eventually before the the session was over. I do not know exactly what that is, but since he heard about this client first hand from people the client had ripped off I imagine it was something particular maybe even an ”I love you”.

 

Good grief.

 

I sympathize for both the provider and the “client”. However, that’s why blacklist are important. I prefer to keep police and violence out of sexual encounters. At the end of the day, we’re all grown men just having se...fun. We don’t need 3rd parties being involved. I hate that. We need to be able to police ourselves.

 

That’s why the stuff that @Kurtis Wolfe is saying is ludicrous. He’s making a fuss over twitter post. Dude, I’m protecting the industry by simply posting on a venue that I only advertise to a niche audience. Why not vent in a safe way, on twitter (which let’s face it, isn’t gospel) versus allowing others to have encounters with these people that could end up much worse??

 

The cops don’t give a mother fuck about us. Our landlords and creditors don’t give a fuck about us either. So when a client fails to pay us, after a verbal contract is made, guess who has to suffer? Me. And you.

 

But with flakes of rent men being called out...we can have a better chance of evening the playing field, and even repairing relationships with clients who otherwise, wouldn’t have taken us seriously for SHIT.

[AJ Doyle]

So it sound like this guy is real. I put him in the category of criminals, for sure, stealing services and not paying for them is what criminals do, not normal people.

 

It is a guess, but I am pretty sure he can’t afford it at all, but just wants the sex anyway.

If he hadn’t found this method, he might be raping to get the sex he apparently so desperately needs.

 

If an escort attached him to the bed (instead of beating him up) and called the California police, how would they react? No need to mention sex of course, just the agreed hours of companionship and the missing compensation for it.

I wasn't implying the police should be called.

[AJ Doyle]

The police were not called. I guess the client had the same the same response all the escorts need ripped off did: will the police be able to help me?

 

I'm not condoning violence and I'm not sharing any info on this escort. And think about it: tying someone to the bed and demanding money doesn't exactly go well in regards to the police or courtroom. It may go better than assault but not a much better option. As for walking the client to an ATM refusing to leave, escorts have tried this. It only results in the client calling the police or security and claiming that this random trick is coming at him for no reason.

 

As for the missing part of my story... The escort had heard about the bad check guy and there was some details and what he heard that tipped him off eventually before the the session was over. I do not know exactly what that is, but since he heard about this client first hand from people the client had ripped off I imagine it was something particular maybe even an ”I love you”.

I was more joking about the tying up aspect. Like it's a funny idea vs violence in theory...well if one has a dark sense of humor.. It's still highly illegal and I imagine some violence would be required to get him tied up though. So it's only funny to think about doing or joking about it (which was what I was doing ...joking) But it is not funny to actually do it. For me I just took the check knowing it was prob not gonna be a good check and went on my way. I believe in Karma and knew that what he was doing would eventually impact him as the Universe has a way of providing revenge on Her own without our Help!

[+ Pensant]

Why any provider would accept a personal check from a client unless they’ve enjoyed a long relationship is baffling. The protocol on first meeting is to leave the fee in full sight. 90% of providers will find this to be quite acceptable.

 

As for the flakes, the providers I know are fairly adept at discerning the flakes and blocking them. I know a number who have never been burned. Discernment aside, sociopaths constitute 4% of the US population, so encountering them, as has been reported, is, sadly, the cost of business.

[+ Keith30309]

I think that maybe this can be a no-win situation:

• If you ask a client for an advance deposit many freak out and vanish (see the many posts related to refusal to send deposits, including my own)
  
• If you ask a client for payment at the beginning of the meeting many freak out and take off (see the many threads about this “red flag”)
  
• If you wait until the end of the time and the client says “gee - I forgot my wallet. Can I write you a check?” then your choices are to either accept a check in the hopes that it will clear or become more deeply involved with them (No, no checks. I’ll walk with you to an ATM...drive with you to your house.... hold your Timex for you while you go get your wallet... threaten to beat the crap out of you... publish your name and number... etc.)
  

Beyond avoiding the risk in the first place by screening it’s a difficult problem. With the implementation of the ACA and shift of the privately insured to high-deductible health plans hospitals have been facing an increase in bad debt and difficult collections. (The similarity being receiving payment after services are rendered.)

 

(Regarding bad checks... it might not be a pleasant experience but these can be pursued for a magistrates judgement. The services claimed are whatever is on the providers tax return - masseur, life coach, therapist, etc. Just the threat of this may be helpful in being properly paid, though it may sound like a long shot and involve disclosure of the providers name, address, etc.)

[LivingnLA]

For a new client, I would think it's very simple, the payment in cash must be out and visible at the start of the session or the provider leaves. I always make sure my payment is visible when a provider arrives and have never had a problem with the provider seeing it, progressing through the session, and then collecting the payment as he departs.

[Mocha]

Even though I didn’t read his last essay/thesis statement, regardless of what it says: I want to say my apologies to @Kurtis Wolfe for calling you out of your name.

 

Anyhow, I’m walking away from this topic. Everyone is free to feel how they feel, and I’m free to feel how I feel when it comes to handling such situations.

 

I will say this 1 last thing though, I will maintain my twitter and/or domain...but I don’t intend to use it as my first line of defense when dealing with flakes.

 

For example: yesterday I had a client who spent two hours to set up an appointment, then at the end said “I’ll pass”, just because I told him it’s no point in asking me if I’m a registered massage therapist when I’m actually an escort. Though I wanted to pull out the Twitter, I decided to remind him that he’d spent TWO HOURS setting this up, and that’s not a fair thing to do.

 

Then he changed his mind and said, okay let’s do it. He ended up being a great client and the massage certainly wasn’t on his mind. So, I’d rather work with people than otherwise.

[snogaholic]

>> just because I told him it’s no point in asking me if I’m a registered massage therapist when I’m actually an escort.

 

Why isn't someone allowed to ask you that question (which is pretty straightforward), and how does that make the client a flake? Quite a few guys are both registered masseurs and also escorts -- which is lovely when they are!

[AJ Doyle]

Why any provider would accept a personal check from a client unless they’ve enjoyed a long relationship is baffling. The protocol on first meeting is to leave the fee in full sight. 90% of providers will find this to be quite acceptable.

 

As for the flakes, the providers I know are fairly adept at discerning the flakes and blocking them. I know a number who have never been burned. Discernment aside, sociopaths constitute 4% of the US population, so encountering them, as has been reported, is, sadly, the cost of business.

I think you missed the point. Escorts don't "Accept checks." It's a scam this guy was doing. Saying he was gonna pay cash, but then afterward saying he only has a check. Session is over, so there isn't anything you can do but take the check or leave with nothing. It's no different than a guy shoplifting or dining and dashing in my opinion. Some people do the dine and dash with bad checks too, so it's not a NEW scam. I have actually found the majority of clients do NOT put the fee in full sight as you suggested. It seems kind of tacky to demand it be in sight, but I guess it would stop a scam like this. But I think it's a one in a million chance of getting scammed like this, so not worth demanding the cash be out in sight for every client. Seems like if we get to the point of demanding something like that we are being a bit paranoid and need to find a new line of work....

 

I agree on the flakes comment though. They all display certain characteristics that we quickly learn. Even the bad check guy gave hints if I had just followed my gut instinct... To me it was a lesson and not a tragedy. Like u stated it's a cost of doing business. We learn and move on.