"The Night Of" by Riz Ahmed. Racism and typecasting in Hollywood.

[+ bigjoey]

Sorry BigJ, I'm not following what your theory is. Was your point that theatre/Broadway is as color blind as Opera? Just trying to understand. Maybe you were pointing instances where the twist worked?

 

Sorry, I should have added that Briadway has begun color blind casting with talented people like Audra McDonald. The "110 In a The Shade" was an example. The "Hello Dolly" was considered a novelty back in the '60's as I mentioned but not a real color blind casting.

 

Talent seems to be winning in both opera and Broadway.

[+ Truereview]

Sorry, I should have added that Briadway has begun color blind casting with talented people like Audra McDonald. The "110 In a The Shade" was an example. The "Hello Dolly" was considered a novelty back in the '60's as I mentioned but not a real color blind casting.

 

Talent seems to be winning in both opera and Broadway.

Got it. thanks for explaining it! Didn't she get a Tony for it? Maybe I'm thinking of something she did back a decade ago. She has received quite a few Tonys. I remember her at the Roundabout...I was mesmerized.

[+ bigjoey]

Got it. thanks for explaining it! Didn't she get a Tony for it? Maybe I'm thinking of something she did back a decade ago. She has received quite a few Tonys. I remember her at the Roundabout...I was mesmerized.

 

From memory, too lazy to look it up, yes, she got a Tony for it. I am old enough to remember the original production and the revival was better because of her.

[gallahadesquire]

I'm a professional, working actor and I'm always glad when casting directors/producers are color blind and go with talent pure and simple. What I HATE is gender fucking, unless the play is written that way. I never want to see another man playing Lady Bracknell or another girl playing Peter Pan. I'm surprised there hasn't been more outrage from actresses about this.

 

Hmmmmm. I wonder how Dame Maggie Smith would play it? Or, for that matter, Sir Ian Mckellen?

[gallahadesquire]

Here is a perfectly proper Lady Bracknell.:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMbIu8lRlWw

[+ WmClarke]

So only people who match the genetic makeup of the character can play the character?

 

Your first question ignores what is really going on: historically, all parts belonged to nondisabled cis white actors. If they did not look like the ethnicity they were playing, they were made up to look like it. Non-white actors simply want a fair shake. Why shouldn't they clamor to get parts they are more suited for culturally and physically than white actors who have for many years benefited from a system gamed to favor them?

.

No it doesn't because I wasn't debating what has happened in the past. Just answer the question with a "Yes" or a "No" - should only people who match the genetic makeup of the character can play the character?

[+ WmClarke]

While there Re many contenders for the worst case of racial miscasting, my nomination goes to "Breakfast at Tiffany's" casting of Mickey Rooney as the Japanese neighbor, Mr Yunioshi:

 

https://goo.gl/images/ppwnUS

That one is jaw droppingly awful.

 

And you can have racially matched casting that's still bad because the character is offensive--like Geddy Watanabe's character in 16 Candles named Long Duck Dong.

[+ quoththeraven]

No it doesn't because I wasn't debating what has happened in the past. Just answer the question with a "Yes" or a "No" - should only people who match the genetic makeup of the character can play the character?

 

I can't answer that with an unqualified yes or no because of the racial power dynamics, whether a production needs realism to work, and whether specifying a character's ethnicity is actually integral to the production or is lazy characterization or stereotyping.

[TruHart1]

Other forms of entertainment are usually depicting reality. That has never been the case with opera as we don't exactly sing to each other in real life. I should have added that in my example above one of the other characters is a teenaged boy who is played by a female mezzo-soprano. There is also a tradition of females portraying adult male characters. Mezzo Marilyn Horne virtually made a career of portraying such characters many of whom were princes and warriors. Her nickname was "General Horne". Hardly reality, but something that opera goers have accepted from day one. Plus, we are used to the fat lady singing as in a singer of any age, size, or color portraying the teenaged Madame Butterball.

 

Of course this has all been parodied in opera as in Le Comte Ory when the tenor disguises himself as a nun to gain entrance to the home of a certain countess. He jumps in bed with her, but the guy who really loves the countess and is played by a female jumps in bed between them so we have a guy who is disguised as a woman making love to a woman portraying a man while he thinks that he is making love to a woman. It gets more complicated from there. Oh, and it has been done with singers of color and various ethnic backgrounds as well!

 

Perhaps opera goers, composers, performers, and producers were and are a cut above the rest of what's out there... Who knows?

A few years ago, I saw a production of "110 In The Shade" with Audra McDonald playing the sister in a family where the other characters were white.

 

Yes, mezzos Marilyn Horne, Shirley Verrett (African American, BTW, who also played Nettie Fowler in a recent revival of Carousel on Broadway with a mainly white cast, because of her operatic voice and ability to sing a "knock your socks off" You'll Never Walk Alone!) and many other mezzos sing operatic "trouser roles" because these roles were either written for castrati (in the Baroque period and earlier) or composers (Mozart, Rossini, Richard Strauss) who chose to write a trouser role for the musical balance of voices or for a specific gifted singer.

 

Not only did Audra McDonald portray Lizzie in 110 in the Shade in 2007, (not winning a Tony, but sharing a best actress Drama Desk Award for her portrayal with Donna Murphy [for playing Lotte Lenya in LoveMusik]) but she won a best supporting actress Tony for her portrayal of Carrie Pipperidge in the Lincoln Center revival of Carousel in 1996. With McDonald, (and I realize there are Audra detractors here) it has been a matter of talent over color. Still, I doubt Billie Holiday in Lady Day at Emerson's Bar and Grill (for which she won her fifth and most recent Tony) would work with a non-African American actress.

 

As for Shakespeare, men in female roles just goes back to original casting practice during Elizabethan times, when the playwright's plays were being written and produced originally. It was common practice and for that reason not considered gender-bending in any way back then.

 

TruHart1

[+ bigjoey]

As for Shakespeare, men in female roles just goes back to original casting practice during Elizabethan times, when the playwright's plays were being written and produced originally. It was common practice and for that reason not considered gender-bending in any way back then.

TruHart1

 

From Shakespeare in Love: "That woman is a woman!

 

[actor61]

Here is a perfectly proper Lady Bracknell.:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMbIu8lRlWw

Maggie Smith was wonderful as Lady Bracknell about 20 years ago, as was Judi Dench in the film with Rupert Everett and Reese Witherspoon, although I didn't like the film as a whole. Margaret Rutherford apparently was quite brilliant too; she started out as Miss Prism in the definitive production John Gielgud directed and starred in with Edith Evans as Lady Bracknell, and then took over as Bracknell on a tour. The film version is one of my 5 favorite films. Michael Redgrave is so wonderful that you forget that Gielgud's performance onstage was considered the best ever given in that role.

 

When I was in drama school in London, imitating Dame Edith's speaking of "In a handbag?" was one of our vocal exercises. I had to learn a British accent in school, and my vowels, consonants and "dropped jaw" sounds were tested by having to recite: "Come, Gwendolyn, we have already missed one train. To miss another would expose us to comment on the platform." And that's as close as I ever want to get to playing Lady Bracknell!

[marylander1940]

May I bring up this thread the night before the Oscars?

[+ WilliamM]

Terrific. How do you know that someone else less well known would not also have done well in the role if given a chance?

 

I saw Jonathan Pryce in London as Professor Higgins in "My Fair Lady." Sadly, it was the evening of 9/11/2011.

 

All of the shows in West End should have been cancelled that night, especially musicals. I barely remember Pryce's performance.

 

@quoththeraven, perhaps it was pay back.

[+ OliverSaks]

 

Enjoy!

[+ quoththeraven]

Five Myths About #OscarSoWhite

 

http://www.teenvogue.com/story/oscarssowhite-creator-april-reign-on-hollywood-and-the-2017-oscars?mbid=social_twitter

[marylander1940]

I can't answer that with an unqualified yes or no because of the racial power dynamics, whether a production needs realism to work, and whether specifying a character's ethnicity is actually integral to the production or is lazy characterization or stereotyping.

 

Besides why is Tom Brady all American and other athletes aren't?

[Guest]

IMHO, proper casting involves finding proper talent in an actor or singer of the appropriate demographic for the character being played. I don't like to see a black-faced white man playing Otello for the Verdi opera unless there truly isn't a black tenor around talented enough to sing the role. Nor do I want to see white people playing Asians, Asians playing white or black people, straight people playing gay, and so on. The only exception that comes to mind is that there were a number of 18th century operas which were written for castrati, and those probably have to sometimes be played by women since well-qualified counter-tenors aren't easy to come by.

[+ quoththeraven]

I saw Jonathan Pryce in London as Professor Higgins in "My Fair Lady." Sadly, it was the evening of 9/11/2011.

 

All of the shows in West End should have been cancelled that night, especially musicals. I barely remember Pryce's performance.

 

@quoththeraven, perhaps it was pay back.

Maybe, but payback doesn't pay the rent of underused Asian-American actors.

[+ quoththeraven]

IMHO, proper casting involves finding proper talent in an actor or singer of the appropriate demographic for the character being played. I don't like to see a black-faced white man playing Otello for the Verdi opera unless there truly isn't a black tenor around talented enough to sing the role. Nor do I want to see white people playing Asians, Asians playing white or black people, straight people playing gay, and so on. The only exception that comes to mind is that there were a number of 18th century operas which were written for castrati, and those probably have to sometimes be played by women since well-qualified counter-tenors aren't easy to come by.

There is also a problem though with treating all roles as white only unless ethnicity is specified and if it is, it is often negative representation. For example, the only roles Arab/Middle Eastern actors are offered are terrorists. This even affects South Asian actors. They are unlikely to be cast in other roles even though, as I'm sure you know, there are many Arab, Middle Eastern and South Asian professionals in the US, particularly in IT and medicine.

 

East Asians receive less overtly negative stereotyping, but they are still stereotyped. Latinxs have a similar problem to Arabs/Middle Eastern actors in that they are typecast as drug kingpins, but at least those are not the only roles they are offered. There's a decent amount of "just plain Josephine" roles available for Latinxs today. That's not as true for East, Southeast or South Asians.

 

I'm not even going to start in on the restriction of female roles in general, especially in film, and the career and economic barriers that creates for non-white actors and those who don't meet Eurocentric beauty standards.

[MikeBiDude]

May I bring up this thread the night before the Oscars?

@marylander1940 I would suggest you bring up old threads a bit often

 

That said, Riz looked pretty good presenting last night! That is when I could take my eyes off Dev Patel.

[marylander1940]

@marylander1940 I would suggest you bring up old threads a bit often

 

That said, Riz looked pretty good presenting last night! That is when I could take my eyes off Dev Patel.

 

[MikeBiDude]

I meant to "suggest" you bring up old threads TOO often, lol! :eek:

 

Ok, but the gif of another favorite onscreen eye candy of mine absolves all...!

[marylander1940]

I meant to "suggest" you bring up old threads TOO often, lol! :eek:

 

Ok, but the gif of another favorite onscreen eye candy of mine absolves all...!

 

I took it as a compliment, and this thread is on subject.

 

I can't help searching before posting, you can't imagine how many times I wanted to post pics in the gallery and @Unicorn (the master of the gallery who kept it going for years before I joined) had already posted about the guy.

 

Thanks to all yinz who posted on here including you @MikeBiDude after all yesterday was Oscars' night and unlike 2016 there was no "whiteout".

[+ quoththeraven]

@marylander1940 I would suggest you bring up old threads a bit often

 

That said, Riz looked pretty good presenting last night! That is when I could take my eyes off Dev Patel.

 

If they're threads someone has started, I don't mind.

 

What bugs me is when someone gratuitously resurrects a many years old thread started by someone else in order to drag another forum participant.

[marylander1940]

If they're threads someone has started, I don't mind.

 

What bugs me is when someone gratuitously resurrects a many years old thread started by someone else in order to drag another forum participant.

 

that's called a zombie thread!